Chaos Shuffle = Tunneling Chaos
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difference is no matter what happens there is always a way for the survivor to escape, thats the point to the hatch so no reason to give up other than laziness….there is no point in the match for a survivor where all is lost because they can always get the hatch.
killer on the other hand, there is a point of no return where tunneling wont bring it back for the killer…tunnel too late and the damage is done.
Also killers are pre-emptively striking, playing the game with the aim of winning. survivors giving up because its 2 v 1 and 5 gens left? thats not playing the game, thats not aiming to win.
a better comparison would be thats why survivors stealth first because they know what will happen if they dont (they get tunneled)….oh wait, they dont do that lol
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The point is the gen speed argument is garbage, which you are proving with all this. They do it regardless.
If KRs drop, killers can finally get needed adjustments, since the stats are probably horribly inflated by tunneling. It would be the best thing to happen to the game. If people in this community can't handle changes that improve the game overall then they can fly free.
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difference is no matter what happens there is always a way for the survivor to escape, thats the point to the hatch so no reason to give up other than laziness….
Now turn around and apply that to the Killer. No matter what happens, there's always a way for the Killer to win, so no reason to tunnel other than laziness.
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It is. In general i have always thought they need to do with gen defense perks what they often do with killer addons. Buff the basekit, nerf the addons. In this case, buff the basekit, nerf the perks.
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if kill rates drop there wont be killers left to play the game lol look how long it took bhvr to get the balance they wanted, nearly a decade. look how long it takes them to balance 1 killer like skull merchant…. you think they can balance all killers accordingly before people quit? not likely. its a good job your not heading the bhvr dev team thats all i can say lol you would kill the game in 24 hours
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except there isnt always a way for the killer to win, 5 gens done, gates open, 4 hooks spread out…. tunneling at that point is too late. killers tunnels to make sure they win, might be lazy, might be easier but the point is they do it because they are playing the game. survivors giving up is not playing the game. its ok to be lazy and take the easy option if its playing the game. survivors are not doing that by giving up
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If you're that big of a baby about losing matches that you'd immediately quit then idk what to say. You could just maybe try to change your ways and adapt, like survivors have to do every time a new killer is released. Not everyone tunnels, not everyone would be affected. Tunneling will never be removed anyway, but doing it early-game needs to be deincentivized.
SM is a bad example. They'd be working on her if she was making them any money. She's low priority for a reason.
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Good killer players have to invent special handicaps and limitations to massively restrict themselves. Otherwise, winning is completely automatic. And they're still going on 40-50 winstreaks while lamenting that it took them a whole week to manage it.
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i always adapt, and usually in ways players like you wouldnt like lol. if there is a loop hole, i will find it. cant tunnel? slug. there are many ways of dealing with things, especially with the abandon feature being the way it is. when no loop holes exist, no options available then yes i would quit as would everyone else. SM is a perfect example, money being the hitter right there. the fact that you understand the killer isnt making the money so they are sidelined and not a top priority….you still think all killers would get balanced in a timely manner? nearly 10 years and trapper hasnt been touched. there will always be killers that wont make them money so there will always be killers side-lined which proves my point that bhvr can not succesfully balance each killer before people quit and the game dies. its a death sentence for the game.
Luckily this is another dream world and this scenario will never exist.
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when?
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I played yesterday for few hours and i saw no tunneling happening. One oni slugged me for 4k but that was about it.
I wonder what peoples definition of tunneling is here. Do you accept that killer tunnels if they are running out of gens? Do you accept that killer tunnels if you bodyblock when you get off hook and be annoying in their face? Do you yell tunneler when you get off hook and someone else gets hooked after you, but killer comes after you again after the second hook?.. i see this happening often and its silly.
My biggest issue is always the other survivors. Chaos mode shows how clear it is that some people are heavily dependent on windows in their normal games to do any looping.
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What is a player like me exactly?
when no loop holes exist, no options available then yes i would quit as would everyone else
Speak for yourself. Not everyone needs an exploitable system. The way you play is a minority in both roles, a severe minority for survivor.
you still think all killers would get balanced in a timely manner?
If they weren't sustaining a playerbse, yes, but I don't think nearly so many of these people who screech about quitting actually will. The ability of this community to cry wolf is off the charts.
And as for SM, it's probably also becsuse she was despised. You can be Ghoul and be despised cause you make money, but you can't be non-lucrative and despised.
Luckily this is another dream world and this scenario will never exist.
Two efforts to introduce anti tunnel, slug, and camp have even made. It's perfectly possible it may happen in the future. It's clearly on the radar.
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a player that maintains a "moral high ground" and looks down on people that play differently to how they think they should play.
i think the killer playerbase spoke for themselves when they flat out said if the ptb changes went through they would quit the game…that wasnt an idle threat, that was a warning, dont do it or you lose your players.
i minority in both roles? so tunneling as a tactic is a minority? yet plenty claim it happens almost every match to the point they claim its unplayable and getting frustrating, doesnt add up, either its a common case which means my killer playstyle in particular isnt in the minority or it doesnt happen that often and all these people complaining about it being so frequent making the game miserable is just wrong.
Like i said its a good job dbd isnt ran by you, you would take the risk of killing the game thinking people are just threatening to leave, they wont really do it….and when they do….dead game. bhvr luckily has not taken that gamble because its a bad gamble to take lol. makes no sense to kill off the entire killer role to appease a few survivors that slightly unhappy but not unhappy enough to stop playing
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- Just a clarification: to genrush, you need specific perks/builds or at least bring specific toolboxes with specific addons into the game... to tunnel someone, you simply use the basic game mechanics. So in this game mode, genrush and tunneling cannot be correlated.
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It would be the best thing to happen to the game.
The one caveat to anti tunnel that isn't actually hard, but they would need to do a soft MMR reset if they ever decide to actually do anything.
But genuinely, this one issue being meaningfully addressed for the first time ever would fix a lot.
Killers, despite their angry and loud insistence otherwise, would actually adapt to other play styles and actually try other strategies for once. And, assuming they MMR reset, it wouldn't drastically lower kill rates except for the few killers who might actually need help.
We can finally address the killers who need help individually.
And, most people who are dedicated to "tunnel life 4 ever" would realize that playing against opponents actually at your skill level means far less sweaty games, and you'll still kill about 60% of the survivors. You'll just not be constantly boosted at the maximum of your personal skill all the time (which isn't necessarily max MMR).
You can actually have chill games and demonstrate all of that skill, game sense, and game knowledge by getting away from "the first thing you try at 0 hours being the only strategy you ever need for the next 10,000 hours".
(Edit: forgot the best part: that when you actually give more than 1 survivor something to do they aren't on gens. So discovering map pressure would also reduce "gen rushing" by simply not leaving survivors alone and then being shocked that they are doing gens instead of totems and chests)
Unfortunately, BHVR appears to only make changes based on being loud, regardless of how good those changes would be for the game, or how wrong those people are that they think they can't adapt, but would actually be just fine in the long run.
So the devs will never actually fix this issue, no matter how beneficial it would actually be for the game.
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IDK I kind of preferred the game pre 6.1.0, and the killer queue times were much shorter back then. The game survived on lower kill rates.
Players always adapted to the current meta one way or another but second chance meta has been nerfed over and over, which was the answer to tunneling. We have options but they are nowhere near as strong as they were,6 -
That's precisely why I equate excessive camping/tunneling/slugging to giving up. You've given up on a fair trial and are solely focused on ruining the game for others. The only issue is that that is not only accepted but in many cases applauded, while giving up on Survivor has always been met with this frankly bizarre moral conundrum. As if you have to repent to the Entity for having the audacity to see the writing on the wall. 😵
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Idk what it is about MMR and people assuming/needing to be in uppermost. God forbid you fall to your actual skill level. It's really not that serious. Like who cares about your MMR? But people really cling to it.
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Oh, you mean people with empathy who don't take games that seriously? Got it.
Who is the killer playerbase? Plenty of killer players weren't dooming and glooming about the changes. The other people were just louder.
I dont know whats happening other people's matches but I've never said hard tunneling is in every match. It is a minority. The issue isnt it's frequency, it's how much you can suck, how inexperienced you can be against someone with 10x the hours, and still get kills or win. It encourages people to stay stuck with an obnoxious tactic instead of learning macro. It's a detriment to player growth and the game's growth.
Maybe you recall there was an excessive stink about a survey. It was survivor-sided for a reason. It's likely survivors who are quiting in a slow trickle instead of some dramatic mass exodus that won't happen.
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This doesn't apply to everyone, but the loudest voices seem to also have a gigantic amount of ego invested in this game.
For some people, the foundation of game balance conversations starts with the "fact" that they are the second best player in the universe (the content creator they worship is obviously better).
Because if you start with the assumption that "I am a god at this game", yet find yourself struggling, then the only conclusion that allows both of those things to be true at the same time is that the game itself has to be broken. Massively broken, despite the data and evidence saying otherwise.
And we see this a lot on the forums: the first time someone struggles, or entity forbid, loses a match, they come here and complain about the usual suspects:
"SWF is broken and needs a nerf." (Because they're obviously max MMR and that's all the game is giving them, despite their last match being 4 randoms who are simply better at the game than they are).
"You have to tunnel to win/have a chance." (Because that's what their content creator idol says, and how comp dbd is played, and they're clearly at that level. Yet it's also the only tactic that they understand and can execute with any consistency, and also boosts them to a higher MMR than they can actually handle. But if you truly believe that you're the second best player ever, then even considering that you're boosted by simple tactics is insulting, which is what we tend to see here.)
Gen speeds are too fast / 2-3 gens are done in my first chase. (Because there's zero room in their mind that they could improve in any way, they're gods at DbD, remember? It wasn't that it took them 60+ seconds to find the first survivor, or that they dropped chase to kick a gen at 8%, no no. Those options are off the table because they start with the premise that they're the best. The game must be broken, nerf gen speeds.)
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having empathy and not taking the game too seriously doesnt mean you should look down on people that play the game differently to how you think it should be played. As previously stated, i understand people play differently to how i play regardless if i agree or even like how they play, my attitude is if it works then good on them. your style of play works for you, good on you, im happy your happy with how you do things, thats what its all about, playing in a way that matches our own playstyle. You on the other hand seem to look down on anyone that plays in a way the goes against your made up rulebook. You dont seem to like it, you dont seem to be happy that others are enjoying the game. i could be wrong but thats how you come across.
You claim you have empathy but that empathy is very narrow. your empathy is based on you would feel, how your moral compass aligns. You use this "empathy" to refuse to tunnel because you dont think people should do it, you think it would make them feel awful, yet you dont have empathy for anyone that might go against your beliefs. such as friendly killer? letting someone go? targeting a player just because they havnt been running up to the killers face to try take chase so you havnt seen them? leaving an afk person alone and targeting someone else that might have a challenge to do? looping a killer for 3 or 4 gens? there is no empathy for any of these people, you dont care if they are having fun or not. So your empathy seems to only swing one way, the way you think things should be done.
you say you dont take the game seriously yet your constantly talking about player growth and people winning using a tactic you disagree with…sounds very much like you do take it seriously to even care about player growth and getting better at the game. Someone that doesnt take the game seriously genuinly would care one way or the other if they die, how they die, how people win and certainly wouldnt care about player growth
as for survivor quitting, the numbers dont reflect this, player count is still up and seems to be pretty stable for the past couple years. makes no sense to risk killing off the killer playerbase when the number are still up. if the numbers dropped significantly then there would be a call for changes to get players back but as it stands people are still playing the game so it makes no sense to take such a big risk. i have always said if people are not happy with the state of the game, the best thing to do is stop playing and state why you stopped playing but complaining and still playing the game wont lead to major changes….tweaks here and there yes but not major changes that could kill off an entire role of the game.
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killer times are almost instant for me, survivor times are usually about 10 to 30 seconds. yes the game survived, but player numbers were far lower than they are now, i dont think the business wants to go backwards and start losing players.
Players always adapted yes, they tunnel, slug, camp use whatever op combo of perks and killer they can at the time. like back in the days of 3 gen meta. which is why if they gutted tunneling its possible meta would shift to slugging or something else especially as survivors usually abandon after being downed a couple of times turning them into an easy bot player….not quite as good as tunneling but still.
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It's one of those things where Survivor has to continue to adapt to the worst changes being made to the game and they do. That's partially why slowdowns, basekit or otherwise, never work forever. But there's an insistence that that is how it's supposed to be—the weaker role should adapt to macro play with the highest amount of responsibility. It's totally ass-backwards. I agree that finally addressing these issues after a decade is certainly much better than continuing to do nothing at all.
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"SWF is broken and needs a nerf." (Because they're obviously max MMR and that's all the game is giving them, despite their last match being 4 randoms who are simply better at the game than they are).
Funny thing about this, I've watched people load and dodge over and over in my lobbies so that I know for a fact that they were solo and they body blocked and coordinated so perfectly that anyone would have thought they were a 4man. The SWF argument is so silly, as though you become amazing by having friends. Some players are actually just good.
But if you truly believe that you're the second best player ever, then even considering that you're boosted by simple tactics is insulting, which is what we tend to see here.
I don't think they truly believe it, that just want to feel dominant and important and they dont care how they get there. Pure ego feeding.
It wasn't that it took them 60+ seconds to find the first survivor, or that they dropped chase to kick a gen at 8%, no no.
I often go back and look at the times on matches where a killer DCs after one chase and losing 3 gens and its always like 2+ minutes. Usually little to no gen perks or toolboxes, just overcommitment on the killers part, abd not realizing how long 90s actually is.
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last actual update to involve trapper was about 4 or 5 years ago….meaningless changes at best and considering the game in nearly 10 years old many people have played for years and have never known trapper to be touched.
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ye i wouldnt even consider the little minor updates he has had to be honest. they are so meaningless they are barely noticeable so as good as not being touched. When meaningful changes happen then i will say he has been touched but until then he hasnt especially as people generally think in those terms. They dont think "he has had minute changes half a decade ago so he has been worked on".
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Than why you bring such hard words, fast gens can be achived even without toolboxes and perks if survivors spread and all work on gens while one is preasured by killer and doesnt end up on hook in few seconds, in this mode there isnt much viability for genrushing builds but there isnt gen deffence too so its random and that means not all killers are equiped with basekit that can offer fast chases that lead to down or map preasure or any kind of preasure that can slow gen speed like look at legion without chase perks or iri button he is super bad in getting downs even while being m1 killer that has one of easiest times to get the one health state off realy fas tand reliably compare to others and still he isnt that good especialy with random things or trapper and hag they need some slowdown for set up because they without set up are super bad and for other side super easy to deal with (hag or trapper with no traps set is just super easy mode for survivors especialy where these killers dont have some hel from perks like endgame slugging combo so they can get second chance).
Tunneling is with slugging two strats that can help killer get preasure back without perks when they struggle and you can denny it as much as you want but this mode only prooves it more, on other side hardcore tunneling is easier and tunneling in general due to having small chance of resistence from perks which is truth but gens are fasr easier to which makes it more equal that it realy is if survivors jump all on the start on gens and killer is chasing one than if that one survivor isnt going down fast the 2 or even 3 gens can be done and there isnt much killer without strong power or super lucky build can do to catch up than try to get someone out with tunnel so he has chance to get 2 kills at this point or slug (massive slugging isnt easy and is binded to killers power and perks/addons too like iri flesh bubba will have easier slugging time than bubba without it, dracula will have easier time to get multiple sluggs than ghostface).
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I don't know if someone who's proudly anti-empathy needs to be lecturing anyone about the concept. An attempt at morals is better than anti-morals.
As previously stated, I understand people play differently to how i play regardless if i agree or even like how they play, my attitude is if it works then good on them
Easy to say this when you're tunneling or letting your teammates die on purpose. This is like saying "I understand some people are considerate of others even if I'm not." Your method as survivor only works because your teammates don't expect that behavior. If they were all just as devious your matches would be very different.
you say you dont take the game seriously yet your constantly talking about player growth and people winning using a tactic you disagree with…sounds very much like you do take it seriously to even care about player growth and getting better at the game.
I play this game every day so it's logical to try to improve. Otherwise what am I even doing? There's no point in engaging with something this much if I'm just gonna stand around and lose and never change.
But I'm talking more about the ego-driven players who want to feel like their the best players ever by winning a lot yet refusing to learn and cling to anything but the games cheapest tactic. It's not a desire to improve or be skilled, it's a desire to win and convince themselves they're skilled and feed what must be a horribly fragile ego. What's the point of winning by hooking an AFK until they die? What sort of victory is that? All that is is hollow stat padding.
Happy with my own matches as killer, yes, because I don't blame perks or players for my failures. I blame myself (and sometimes the map, a little, but mostly me.) As survivor, mostly happy as well, but there are still those matches where a low skill killer camps multiple people into second stage or slugs everyone after getting no hooks all match. You shouldn't be able to win by doing basically nothing, even when you were terribly outplayed.
your empathy is based on you would feel, how your moral compass aligns.
I like that you say this like these are my views exclusively but you also are constantly seeing and engaging with people who feel the same way. Anti-tunnel and anti-rat are two of the most common complaints. That corny rulebook joke is a thing for a reason--many people adhere to it.
i have always said if people are not happy with the state of the game, the best thing to do is stop playing and state why you stopped playing
People do this all the time here. I'm sure they do it elsewhere as well. Currently it's the loudest (though not largest) mass that gets listened, which is a cowardly reaction. Most players also aren't engaging with the community. If they quit they'll just quietly walk away. And advocating for people leaving is anti-problem-solving. If you wait until that many people leave you're already screwed. You should fix a problem while people still want your product.
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That's why you drop chase if it takes more than a minute the more you chase different survivors off gens the slower gens will go it's amazing people can't understand this simple thing and keep on chasing the same survivor no matter how long it takes while the other survivors get to do gens in peace even if you use legion and constantly hit survivors with feral frenzy they have to keep mending and that keeps them off gens and that gives you more time to down them with m1's and hook them every killer has one ability whether it be dashing teleport long range trapping assistance from zombies drones guards dogs and others have instadown abilities there's really no reason you can't spread pressure other than lack of skill and you can't improve skill by tunneling.
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Like I would didnt know when to drop chase, sometimes you dont have info and its better to take longer chase than just wonder around without success to target another survivor and if you do than chase with him can be long same even longer so I know very well when to drop chase and when Im about to loose no matter i do unless other side makes so mistakes.
Mending? It takes 10 seconds and with legion unless survivors are close to each other or one way yo you can get them in one direction like train than maending wont give you much of a slowdown it was nerfed through years.
Every killer doesnt have active ability and even some active abilities are bad like pigs dash or trap killers trapper or hag have just traps alone and try to tell me they are great (yeah only preset before chase takes part because when you set them in chase survivor just holds W so its not that good).
If survivor spread they still can do gens faster than you can spread preasure and get results especialy good survivors and this works 200% more if you have random perks but your preading preasure god, injuring is nice but doesnt stop gens unless its killer that is forcing survivors to heal or suffer quick down like blight/nurse and slugging plus tunneling are only super effective killers slowdowns that can be achieved without perks and addons, fast chases are nice but if you are having like 30 seconds chases which are quite fast with killer who isnt crazy with catch up mobility like ghoul than survivors can still do gens across the map and you waste time to get to the hook and than walk there which is just not great for preasure. Good presure is like hooked survivor 1, survivor 2 being chased and survivor 3 and 4 must split because someone must go for save and one gen can be getting progress but not every time you can have fast chases not with all killers.
You can improove your skill by building better macro and having knowleadge about whats going on on the map and who is where and than with good tunnel you can cause more preasure than with spreading hooks (how do you know that survivor doesnt have dh or deliverence?), tunneling is just chasing injured survivor nothing more and if you say you dont improove by doing chases and winning them than you are wrong here compleatly because chase is active activity way more than doing gen and proxycamp.
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That corny rulebook joke is a joke not because more people adhere to it. Its a joke because how funny it is that people make up rules and expect others to follow them, then get annoyed when people dare not follow these made up rules. Your not the only one that likes to invent rules, there are many people that try to set their own rules, survivors and killers.
As previously stated im happy your happy with your games, im happy with mine too. One day maybe you can be happy for other people that dont follow your views or self-made rules 😊
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If the killer is running out of gens, it would be fair play, but the core problem are those who tunnel someone out at 5 gens, while playing a killer with high mobility and/or map pressure.
If bodyblocking off the hook is a problem, then just hit them and slug them for a while (while you are chasing the unhooker), so that one teammate has to get off a gen. Otherwise it is their fault for leaving their teammate. - You are still giving the unhooked survivor a second chance, while going for the unhooker.
Being annoying towards the other side (this goes both ways) should have consequences.Teammates, and especially those in solo queue are a whole other can of worms. We are not opening that in this thread.
Another thing that really grinds my gears is proxycamping, and especially with it resulting in second stage, followed by a tunnel out.
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