http://dbd.game/killswitch
Survivors rush gens? Rush the hook.
Lately, the dominant survivor strategy is clear: split early, ignore interaction, and finish generators as fast as possible. It’s efficient, low-risk, and rewards minimal engagement with the killer. If that’s the meta survivors choose, then killers adapting shouldn’t be controversial.
Rushing hooks, tunneling early pressure, and prioritizing fast downs are logical responses to gen rush. A killer who spreads hooks and plays “fair” while three gens pop in four minutes is simply playing suboptimally. The game already incentivizes speed; expecting killers to slow themselves down out of courtesy makes no sense.
This isn’t about being toxic. It’s about acknowledging cause and effect. If survivors optimize for generator completion above all else, killers will optimize for removing players from the match as quickly as possible. Faster hooks create slowdown. Slower hooks lose games.
If people want longer, more interactive matches, that discussion should start with survivor strategy, not end with blaming killers for adapting.
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But what else are survivors supposed to do?
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That’s kind of the point though: survivors don’t have many incentives to do anything else right now.
The game heavily rewards generator efficiency and gives very little tangible payoff for interaction, altruism, or “playing around” the killer early. So survivors aren’t wrong for rushing gens, they’re just playing optimally within the system they’re given.
My argument isn’t “survivors should play worse.” It’s that if survivors are doing the only consistently strong thing available to them, killers adapting with early pressure, tunneling, or fast hook states is the mirror image of that same optimization.
If people want survivors to take more risks, go for saves, bodyblocks, chases, or mindgames instead of splitting and holding M1 then the game itself has to reward that behavior. Until then, asking killers to voluntarily avoid the tools that counter gen speed is basically asking them to lose on purpose.
So yeah, survivors rushing gens makes sense. Killers rushing hooks also makes sense. The friction comes from pretending one side’s optimization is “toxic” while the other’s is just “playing the game.”
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How can killers adapt to something they brought onto themselfs with the play they already do?
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That assumes gen-rushing is a reaction to killer behavior, when in reality it’s been the most efficient survivor strategy regardless of how the killer plays. Survivors didn’t start splitting and rushing gens because killers tunneled, they do it because it’s the fastest, safest way to win.
Even against “nice” killers who spread hooks, don’t tunnel, and avoid early pressure, gens still fly. That’s not killers “bringing it on themselves,” that’s the core objective being extremely time-efficient and low-risk when done correctly.
Adaptation doesn’t mean “you caused this.” It means responding to what consistently wins on the other side. If survivors are optimized for speed by design, killers have to be optimized for pressure by design.
You can’t seriously argue that killers should keep playing slow, hook-spreading styles when those styles are objectively punished by the current gen pace. That’s not adaptation, that’s self-sabotage.
Again, this isn’t about blaming survivors or killers. It’s about acknowledging that both sides are responding to the incentives the game gives them. If people don’t like the result, the incentives need to change, not the players.
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Not interacting with anything besides gens was never the most efficient way to reach the survivor goal, cause it would always result in a certain death of one survivor. But its the only way to guarantee a chance of surviving for three other if the killer is tunneling out the first survivor, cause as soons as there is an early 3vs1 situation the game is mostly over fpr the survivors. And yeah, this is caused by killers that are under the false asumption that this is necessary though it isnt. No killer has to do this to win games. But every killer no matter how bad they are in comparison to the other palyers want to get their 4k. Killer mindset is the worst issue in this game as long as devs let them be.
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to be fair its not killers that are against slowing gens down. Its survivors that refuse to accept that if they want tunneling nerfed so it actually punishes killers doing it then gen speeds also needs to be nerfed. If we say tunneling will be nerfed heavily so its not as effective and at the same time nerf gen speeds, its not killers that would be against that….its mostly survivors because they generally dont like doing gens as its boring so they are dead against making them last longer.
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I think this is where we fundamentally disagree on cause vs. outcome. You’re framing gen-focus as only a response to tunneling, but that doesn’t really line up with how survivor play has evolved over time. Survivors were splitting, pre-running, and minimizing interaction long before tunneling became as common as it is now because it’s objectively safer and more efficient than taking early chases or trades.
You’re right about one thing though: once it’s an early 3v1, the match usually snowballs hard. That’s exactly why killers value early pressure so much. The game is incredibly swingy, and the killer who doesn’t create pressure early often just loses control entirely as gens disappear.
Saying “no killer has to do this to win” might be true in a vacuum or against less coordinated teams, but it stops being true once survivors play optimally. Against strong survivors, spreading hooks and avoiding tunneling is frequently punished by pure gen speed. That’s not killer ego, that’s the math of the game state.
Also, going for a 4k isn’t some moral failure or “bad mindset.” The game literally frames success around kills. If the win condition is eliminations, people are going to optimize for eliminations, just like survivors optimize for escapes. Expecting one side to self-restrict while the other plays optimally is where the frustration comes from.
I don’t think killers are the root problem here, and I don’t think survivors are either. The real issue is how hard the game rewards early snowballing and speed on both sides. Until that’s addressed at a design level, players on each side will keep doing what works even if it makes matches less interactive.
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Cause slowing gens down isnt necessary at all. Weve had several changes to slow down gens during the last years, and before that killers were also able to win their games … consistently! Still yet the gens have never been this slow and people still complain. So gen speeds arent an issue to begin with. History prooves this. Also your logic of if tunneling gets nerfed gens need to get nerfed doesnt exist at all too.
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clearly is necessary when tunnelers are saying the reason why they tunnel is because of gen speeds and openly say they are good with not tunneling IF they have time to spread hooks. i hard tunnel….Why do i do this? if i dont, gens get done and i lose, its that simple. Want me to stop tunneling? i have said what would make me stop….slower gen speeds. many killers have said the same. Dont want to listen? Thats why we are at this situation.
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clearly is necessary when tunnelers are saying the reason why they tunnel is because of gen speeds and openly say they are good with not tunneling IF they have time to spread hooks.
Here's the problem: The worse you are as a player, the more time you need to spread hooks.
Which means that if we were to nerf the living daylights out of gen speeds (again), killers could just play worse and still demand access to tunnelling.
Which is kinda what already happened with 6.1.
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Tunnlers always say whats the best narrative for them and not whats reasonably the truth. Ypu probably never even thought for a second that youre not as good as you think you are. If you feel the need to hardtunnel, youre just not accepting that youre the worse player in the match.
Lets take a look at the top scene: they did once an experiment. "best nurse" vs "best swf". three games and it ended in one draw and two 4ks with at least one gen up. Regarding all of your logics this shouldnt even be possible if survivors played optimally. But thats how the game works. Its prooved that it has nothing to do with gen speeds.
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There is no evidence of that. in my experience i was getting balanced matches for a long time. Then suddenly im guessing MMR went up because i was getting SWF team all the time. solo players were rare in my matches. i started to lose constantly. i started tunneling and it turned heavily survivor SWF matches into balanced matches.
Not only that but if your going the route of basically saying "skill issue" then this applies to survivors too. They should be able to loop well enough to counter tunneling. As a survivor i do ok v tunneling killers because i can last long enough for the killer to drop chase or i use stealth.
Fact remains, killers dont have that much of an issue with gen speeds because they tunnel. Killers are not the ones with the issue here, survivors are because they dont like tunneling. As previously stated, the only thing that would stop me tunneling as killer is nerfed gen speeds. If tunneling got nerfed without gen speeds getting nerfed i simply wouldnt play killer as im sure many people would do the same. killers have pretty much said "ok we know you dont like tunneling so lets compromise, nerf tunneling and gen speeds and we have a deal". Survivors are the ones that have no give and take, they want but they wont give. Personally if i had an issue with someone doing something i didnt like i would ask them "why do you do it?" "what would make you not do it?" and i would take that under serious consideration, not just dismiss it.
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not a good example using nurse…. try SWF team with comms v pyramid head or trapper and we have what the actual game is like.
If survivors cant counter tunneling thats their skill issue. There is a reason why tunnelers pick the weak link to tunnel first. They are easy to down. No weak link means the tunneler cant get a down so fast and actually costs them the match by tunneling. Also the same argument can be said for anyone in SWF….if you need SWF with comms to win then maybe they are not as good as they think they are because they have used comms to gain an advantage. Explains why so many SWF players refuse to play soloq….they cant win because they rely on SWF with comms as crutch like killers rely on tunneling. Works both ways
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There is no evidence of that.
Gens have grown slower, insistence on tunnelling has grown worse.
Not only that but if your going the route of basically saying "skill issue" then this applies to survivors too. They should be able to loop well enough to counter tunneling.
You never listen to the complaints or process them outside of a tunneller's perspective, otherwise you'd know why this doesn't fly.
Fact remains, killers dont have that much of an issue with gen speeds because they tunnel.
Also not true, since we get new demands for gen speed nerfs pretty much every week despite tunnelling being completely uninhibited.
killers have pretty much said "ok we know you dont like tunneling so lets compromise, nerf tunneling and gen speeds and we have a deal".
Nope, the deal has always been 'Survivors give up gen speeds, we keep access to tunnelling, and we'll half-heartedly promise to totally not abuse it!'
That is exactly what happened with 6.1. Gen speeds already got nerfed, multiple times, but we've seen more nerfs to anti-tunnel than buffs, and the insistence that tunnelling is 'necessary' only grows every time the game shifts further in killers' favour.
You basically said it yourself: I lose, I tunnel.
So the only way to get you to stop tunnelling is to remove the possibility of you losing.
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gens have gone slower slightly but also the slow down perks have been nefed heavily so it would make sense why tunneling has increased.
I am a survivor main so im looking at it from both sides, not just a tunneler.
If you notice, the killers complaining about gen speeds are often the ones that dont tunnel… they try playing by survivor rulebook and thats why they complain about gen speeds. Tunnelers dont often complain about gen speeds.
Your talking to a tunneler lol i have openly said i am fine with tunneling being nerfed if gen speeds are nerfed too. Seems your the one that objects to this proposal which proves my point.
You misunderstood what i said regarding losing. I lost because i didnt tunnel…. time after time loss after loss. thats not balance. THEN i started tunneling and it turned into balanced matches where i win some i lose some. Nerf tunneling without gen speeds and im back to where i was before, losing match after match where the kill rate is well below 60%. no one said anything about removing the possibility of losing, its about balance…win some lose some which doesnt happen without tunneling
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It's just a cycle though. Once you start tunnelling you're literally leaving the other 3 with no interaction and nothing else to do but sit undisturbed on gens. You're putting no pressure on them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's perfectly normal for a couple of gens to pop by the time you get the ball rolling. I think too many people panic at that point, but the game slows down considerably once you get that first hook - while they're on hook, you're chasing/downing someone else, another has to unhook and heal, and only one is now on a gen (presumably, if it's solo queue they could just be opening a chest or doing a totem). I've played long enough that a couple early gen pops don't even phase me at that point. I've had many many games where I've made some big misplays and still came out on top. This game can be very forgiving.
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Survivors didn't force this into killers. I started bringing gen perks and toolboxes as a response to cheese tactics. If you want to shove people out of the match then what can I do but try to shorten it? I changed my loadout for a fog vial build for about 10 whole days, but killers cried about a mid toy for survivors, so I'm back to gen speed shortening.
People aren't going to stop tunneling if base gen times get increased. Time and again they've said they'd stop doing it if x, y, or z happened and it's worse than ever. At least the honest ones will admit they do it because it's the easiest path of least resistance. Gens taking longer will just mean more time for tunneling for a good deal of the people who already do it. Not to mention many seem to have zero idea how to play this game without running back to the hook. No map awareness, no gamesense. Just one tactic.
There's also nothing else do it. If the survivors all cluster on one gen and bang it out at game start, killers cry. If they spread, killers cry. There's no winning. It's like some people want the survivors to just run up to them so they can be chased and not touch gens at all.
Post edited by cogsturning on7 -
To be fair the same narrative could be said for survivors regarding the crying….killers bring slow down perks they cry, killers tunnel they cry, killers slug they cry, killers camp they cry, killers go S tier killers they cry, killers bring lightborn or noed they cry, killers bring full aura read they cry.
Im not saying killers dont cry about what survivors do, some killers will but It all comes down to that all so famous rule book, play by my rules or we will cry about it.
As for who started it…. its the chicken and the egg. you might have started bringing toolboxes and such as a result of tunneling. I started tunneling as a result of gen speeds. Hence why BOTH need addressing.
Saying killers wont stop tunneling if gen speeds get nerfed is like saying survivors wont stop gen rushing if tunneling gets nerfed. Asking politely to not do something wont work, both have to be nerfed, not just put on faith that "we will stop if x, y or z gets done".
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Ok but this is about survivors being somehow responsible for the choices killer's make. But sure, everyone complains about everything if you want to go there. Couldn't care less about most of what you mentioned myself, except the cheese, which is not comparable to the other things you're mentioning. Lightborn doesn't stop survivors from playing. Neither does gen regress or aura read or Blight. Noed is just embarassing. But tunneling, slugging, and camping take away player autonomy. There no comparable equivalent for killers. I cant do anything if I'm being hook-camped. Killers can still act even if gens are popping. They can still win too.
Who started it? Probably streamers encouraging people to tunnel. At least in terms of it getting big. It's become the Bible of unbearable killer streamers. It never even occured to me to use any of these tactics when I was a killer only player because I didn't have the slightest idea how other killers played until I picked up survivor.
If you think not tunneling would make the rate go below 60%, wouldn't it be logical to make that happen so killers can then be adjusted? Anyway, I'm fine with gen speeds being increased if we get solid anti-cheese.
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This is the game…being hooked takes away player autonomy. cant do anything when hooked but thats the game we play. do we complain about being hooked and how we cant play the game because we are stuck on hook twiddling our thumbs?
Im not sure streamers have much to do with it, i dont watch streamers i just used logic to determine that tunneling 1 player out is more efficient and faster which is whats needed in the dbd race, i dont need a streamer to tell me that.
i dont think the kill rate would drop below 60% i know it would. As i previously said, ideally yes nerf tunneling then buff the killers that struggle…. Realistically this cant happen due to how long it would take BHVR to buff individual killers. The roster is too big and it would take too long, during which time killers would stop playing and the game would likely die waiting on BHVR to buff the killers. Maybe when the game was newer and had less killers, this could be done but not now there are way too many. If they even attempted to try doing it fast it would be a rush job and we all know how that would pan out. Therefore, in order to keep killers playing they need to keep the kill rate up, this is done by nerfing gen speeds at the same time. Its pretty much the only thing that would make me stop tunneling and as long as people keep fighting back with "no to touching gen speeds" and the devs listen to these people and not touch gen speeds then tunneling will remain from my point of view.
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Playing both sides shows non bias. Why argue for 1 side to be buffed and 1 to be nerfed if they play both sides? They would be weakening one of the sides they play….this atleast shows its about balance and both sides are taken into account not just 1 side regardless of how the other side feels or copes. My claim of playing both sides can be back backed up by hours and matches played as killer and survivor on the stats trackers which to my knowledge that part of the tracker is pretty accurate even if the rest is not.
The rulebook is childish i agree, which is why i never go be other peoples rules lol. Sorry but no one can tell me how to play the game…."hook a survivor but when they are unhooked dont back and tunnel them, let them do a gen while you try going for the pro looper" or "Dont play stealth doing gens, take chase and help the random player that cant last 10sec in chase"…..Its not going to happen. I play by the rules BHVR sets out and not by the rules random people make up. If people want their made up rules followed then they need to ask BHVR to set them as rules, make them reportable. You say they are to make the game better for everyone but they are not, they are to make the game fun for them, the ones pushing these rules, not to better the game. Maybe a killer doesnt like to get looped, so should we make up a rule that survivors cant loop a pallet more than once? Or if killers dont have fun when SWF have comms that reveal the stealth killer is heading over to an unaware survivor, should we make it a rule that comms shouldnt be allowed? ofcourse not. So when survivors say "Dont tunnel" sorry but thats your rule not mine and not BHVR's so i wont be following that rule.
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gens have gone slower slightly but also the slow down perks have been nefed heavily
After first being buffed. Pain Res went from 15% to 25%, then to 20%. Jolt just had its cooldown removed. Eruption went from 6% to 10%. Pop got changed from 25% of total to 20% of current (The 5% total was made -basekit-, by the way) then to 30, and then back down to 20. Overcharge first got a 200% regression speed boost, later adjusted to 130%, and then went from 5% to 4% regression on missing the skillcheck.
Really, the only perks that are worse than they were before are Call of Brine, Ruin and Pop, with only the former two being meaningfully worse. The rest are as strong as they were or stronger than they've ever been.
They've been 'nerfed heavily' from the point where making progress was practically impossible after they got massively overbuffed. But if we're going to argue this angle, then we could also point to the nerfing of MFT being the reason gen speeds need to go up.
Barring the CoBruption total lock-out meta, regression is stronger than it has been.
If you notice, the killers complaining about gen speeds are often the ones that dont tunnel…
As evidenced by…?
You misunderstood what i said regarding losing. I lost because i didnt tunnel…. time after time loss after loss. thats not balance.
It is, if you're just not as good as your opponents. But that possibility evidently doesn't even register to you.
You losing is not immediate evidence of the game not being balanced.
no one said anything about removing the possibility of losing, its about balance…win some lose some which doesnt happen without tunneling
It happens to everyone who doesn't tunnel.
The bottom line remains the same: Losing makes you tunnel, therefor your proposed solution to remove tunnelling is…?
killers bring slow down perks they cry, killers tunnel they cry, killers slug they cry, killers camp they cry, killers go S tier killers they cry, killers bring lightborn or noed they cry, killers bring full aura read they cry.
Slow-down was only complained about when they were drastically overpowered. S-tiers don't get complained about to any notable extent. Lightborn is not complained about. NOED got complained about because it was overpowered. Full aura read isn't complained about, the removal of its counter is.
You are taking any singular complaint from any random person to build this narrative that killers aren't allowed anything when the only thing that gets any concentrated pushback is camping, tunnelling and slugging.
Sure, you're gonna cop some random players complaining about random things, somewhere across a couple hundred matches. But that does not reflect overall community sentiment, which has been incredibly complacent given how poorly survivors have been treated.
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and is there any wonder why people are using these slow down perks so much? they are literally the only ones viable on a lot of killers other than tunneling.
evidence showing killers complaining about gen speeds and not tunneling is evident in these forums. If you choose to ignore these posts then thats on you but i have seen many.
If me losing match after match and having a kill rate below 60% is not evidence of the being unbalanced then survivors losing match after match getting under 40% by being tunneled is not evidence of the game being unbalanced….so if the answer is for me as killer is to essentially "get good" instead of tunneling then the answer to survivors is "get good" to counter it. I have, i counter it in my survivor matches.
Im just pointing out that no matter what a killer does, someone will and has complained about.
S tier killers are constantly being complained about Blight and ghoul every match seems to be a pretty common complaint in these forums but like i said, if you choose to ignore these posts then your obviously going to ignorant of that fact.
Fact remains, i will never ever follow other peoples made up rules. they can complain until the end of time about tunneling or slugging or camping or perks or what killer i play as….im going to play the game according to BHVR rules. Until BHVR says they are against the rules im going to continue as i always do and im going to enjoy my matches instead of complaining.
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Wise decison if you cant bring any valid arguments to the discussion as It would just frustrate you further. Happy to discuss anytime if you choose to, if not then hope you find fun in your matches as i have in mine😁
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Rushing hooks, tunneling early pressure, and prioritizing fast downs are logical responses to gen rush
Tunneling at the start of the game isn't a response to anything.
In DbD, gameplay is driven by the killer, and survivors respond to what the killer does. If the killer is AFK or otherwise non existent, then survivor gameplay becomes "do gens and leave".
So when the killer decides to spend the first 5 minutes of the match wandering around blindly, kicking gens at 10%, taking almost 2 minutes to even find anyone, and then stand around admiring the furniture with someone on hook … the other 3 survivors have nothing to do other than gens.
You can't call anything a "strategy" if you aren't considering how your opponent responds to your actions. If the strategy is "focus on one person" and that also allows the other 3 survivors to do whatever they want.... Then you have no room to complain that the other 3 survivors are doing whatever they want... and working on gens.
Because that's the complaint here:
If people want longer, more interactive matches, that discussion should start with survivor strategy,
No, it's not survivors fault the killer isn't chasing them, or pressuring the player off of a gen. The survivors' default action with nothing else to do is to do gens.
The game is a race between first elimination and gens because the killer has chosen to do that.
And literally every single time survivors have anything that they might choose to do voluntarily instead of gens it gets complained about and nerfed also. Boons, fog vials, protection hits and body blocking, flashbang/background player, buckle up/ftp. All of that was survivors choosing to not do gens and interact, yet killers demanded that those things get removed. Then act shocked Pikachu when people go back to doing gens instead.
killers adapting
You use this phrase more than once, and there's nearly zero evidence of killers needing to adapt. Tunneling is the very first thing a 0 hour killer player will try to do, and can continue to do until 10,000 hours.
It's doesn't matter what survivors do, or bring, the killer who decides to tunnel will tunnel someone out. (And, because this seems to always come up, killers can stop survivors from doing gens. Survivors cannot stop a killer from tunneling)
Every single time killers meet with anything that resembles friction (or, entity forbid, lose a match) they complain until the "perceived slight" gets deleted. That's not adapting, that's forcing the game to adapt to you.
And it's all so that people don't have to change and can continue camping and tunneling as the only thing they ever need.
Tunneling at the start of the game is something that people not only think they need, but scream and demand that it remain the same. And trying to limit that in even the slightest way was met with such extreme pushback it was pulled immediately.
That's literally a loud portion of the community screaming "we can't adapt, change nothing" and because of that the devs fell in line and did nothing, specifically so you didn't have to adapt to change.
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Rushing hooks, tunneling early pressure, and prioritizing fast downs are logical responses to gen rush. A killer who spreads hooks and plays “fair” while three gens pop in four minutes is simply playing suboptimally. The game already incentivizes speed; expecting killers to slow themselves down out of courtesy makes no sense.Rushing hooks/prioritizing fast downs - whoever said killers can't do this? It would be like saying survivors shouldn't loop too well. No one is complaining about a killer player downing survivors, though there are complaints about certain killers that are too strong at it (just as there are and were complaints about perks like MFT that made looping too strong)
Tunneling - this has always been an awful response to gen rush as an argument. If gens are flying that quickly, the killer needs to interrupt the gens. If the survivors are truly rushing gens and ignoring the survivor on hook, the killer will lose if he camps.
Tunneling has always been strong because survivors do the exact opposite of this and/or because a few killers that can get back to the hook very quickly.
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to be fair its not killers that are against slowing gens down. Its survivors that refuse to accept that if they want tunneling nerfedIt wasn't the survivor players that got the anti-tunnel update removed. That did exactly what you claim to want, boosting the killer powers in the 4v1 and weakening the incentive of the early elimination. Everyone was willing to discuss that the numbers would need adjustment, but it was killers who were claiming they'd quit the game outright if tunneling didn't stay as is.
You can claim as much as you want that killers are out here willing to compromise, but we very recently saw that wasn't even close to true.
and is there any wonder why people are using these slow down perks so much? they are literally the only ones viable on a lot of killers other than tunneling.This is clearly evasive.
You claimed that slowdown perks had been nerfed heavily. @Firellius demonstrated you were wrong. Instead of recognizing the mistake, you are now trying to pivot to a totally different point.
If me losing match after match and having a kill rate below 60% is not evidence of the being unbalanced then survivors losing match after match getting under 40% by being tunneled is not evidence of the game being unbalancedYeah, that's literally not evidence. It's called an anecdote or personal experience.
People have explained, logically, many times, why tunneling creates a bad game without relying solely upon individual experiences.
Im just pointing out that no matter what a killer does, someone will and has complained about.But its a meaningless observation. Every individual player has their own take. Its just a strawman at this point.
Post edited by crogers271 on3 -
and is there any wonder why people are using these slow down perks so much? they are literally the only ones viable on a lot of killers other than tunneling.
Not what we were talking about.
Your counterargument against my mentioning that dependence on tunnelling has increased with slower gens was to claim that gen regression got worse. I indicated that it didn't. Claiming that these perks are 'the only viable ones' has nothing to do with the argument regarding gen speeds and tunnelling.
evidence showing killers complaining about gen speeds and not tunneling is evident in these forums. If you choose to ignore these posts then thats on you but i have seen many.
Actually, most of the people that say they don't tunnel also say they're doing fine without it, kinda the opposite of what you're claiming.
If me losing match after match and having a kill rate below 60% is not evidence of the being unbalanced
I mean, given that the 60% marker is an arbitrary point the devs decided on that has been stated to not actually be balanced, but instead be weighted in the killer's favour, yeah, you not attaining the level of imbalance the devs set out for you is not evidence of imbalance.
Also, again, your personal competence is a component in this equation that you are deliberately trying to omit. If you are a terrible killer player, your killrates are naturally going to be lower.
then survivors losing match after match getting under 40% by being tunneled is not evidence of the game being unbalanced…
And this is what I mean with taking things from the tunneller's perspective, because the balance of tunnelling isn't even the core of the argument. Tunnelling is incredibly bad for gameplay, that's why people want it gone.
Im just pointing out that no matter what a killer does, someone will and has complained about.
And I've seen complaints about No Mither. Does that mean we should disregard all killer complaints everywhere because RandomNameLotsOfNumbers threw a hissy fit over someone bringing Forced Penance once?
The outrage and tantrums thrown over the idea of tunnelling getting addressed (And the subsequent impact on the game's actual development) are nowhere near comparable to half a dozen salty survivors being upset someone brought Lightborn.
You are intentionally magnifying completely irrelevant, isolated individuals in order to play up a 'woe is me' attitude.
S tier killers are constantly being complained about Blight and ghoul every match seems to be a pretty common complaint in these forums
Yes, Blight and Ghoul -every match-. It's the 'every match' part that gets complained about. Ghoul gets some complaints, but Blight and Nurse have pretty clean slates.
Fact remains, i will never ever follow other peoples made up rules.
So basically, even if gen speeds were reduced even further, you'd keep on tunnelling?
Good to know.
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- once again your ignoring the countless posts saying they dont tunnel and they cant keep up with gen speeds.
- You can debate if the 60/40 the devs want is the right move but thats the balance they want…slightly in favour of killers. if killers are not obtaining that then its not balanced in the way the devs want. so its not balanced.
- by saying survivors should show skill to counter tunneling thats not from a tunneler point of view….thats from a survivor point of view as a survivor that has no issues dealing with tunneling. You cant complain and say "get good" to a tunneler and not say it to the survivors that cant counter it. Tunneling is exactly what people wanted….constant chase. Well now the one that gets tunneled is in constant chase. People should be careful what they wish for.
- We are seeing blights and ghoul EVERY match because this is what people have brought onto themselves, they asked for other killers to be nerfed, they asked for no tunneling, no slow down perks, they join SWF with comms….the result is people will play S tier killers alot more which kills the variety of the game. I dont use S tier killers or slow down perks…instead i choose to tunnel to even the playing the field. would people rather i join the slowdown meta and use ghoul and blight instead of tunneling? There would be no end to the complaints if i did that either.
- As previously said if gen speeds got reduced and tunneling is allowed then i will still tunnel….my rules….BHVR rules….not yours or anyone elses. Same applies to if tunneling got nerfed, am i going to suddenly not gen rush because killers cant tunnel so i have more time to do gens? no. Which has been my point this whole time, you cant ask someone to play by imaginary rules and expect them to abide by them. Both issues should be addressed by the devs and both nerfed. Nerf gen speeds so no amount of rushing is detrimental to the killers time limit and nerf tunneling so no amount of tunneling is detrimental to the survivors gameplay. Or make tunneling and gen rushing against the rules….make them reportable and i will stop as it would be against the rules BHVR set out. Unless that happens then i play my way whatever helps me win as survivor or killer.
- Playing both sides if one was nerfed without the other i would have a field day no matter what because i would just jump ship, drop the 1 role entirely and only play the role that wasnt nerfed which would be survivor if killers had tunneling nerfed. Im already doing fine as survivor with the tunneling killers, i can only imagine how much my escape rate would rise if tunneling got nerfed and gen speeds remained the same lol
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This proves my point. The boosts killers got for spreading hooks did not effect gen speeds which is why killers did not agree to it. It wasnt the numbers that needed adjusting it was the gens that needed adjusting. The compromise is simple, nerf tunneling then gens need to be nerfed too. give and take. And as the ones that have the issue with tunneling i would have thought it would be the survivors willing to compromise but its not, they seem to want tunneling nerfed and have no meaningful nerfs themselves which is why the killers have said they would quit if something like that went through. Maybe if they did a PTB to test it, nerf gens and nerf tunneling. curious who would have the issue with that. im willing to bet survivors would have a big issue because they hate doing gens so they dont want to spend even longer doing them.
If individual experience is anecdotal then same can be said for anyone saying they cant counter tunneling. "just your experience, others have countered it or killers would be getting 100% kill rate". it works both ways, you cant dismiss a killer saying they are losing match after match and not dismiss a survivor saying they lose match after match. If we going an stats and not individual players matces then BHVR actually posted stats that survivors are on average escaping 40% which is what the devs aimed for. so there is no issue with tunneling, anyone struggling with it is just their personal experience.
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once again your ignoring the countless posts saying they dont tunnel and they cant keep up with gen speeds.
And you're disregarding everyone that says they don't have any issue.
You can debate if the 60/40 the devs want is the right move but thats the balance they want…slightly in favour of killers. if killers are not obtaining that then its not balanced in the way the devs want. so its not balanced.
No, that's not what balance means. You can say you're not hitting the mark the developers have set, but you can't say that it's 'not balanced'.
by saying survivors should show skill to counter tunneling thats not from a tunneler point of view….thats from a survivor point of view as a survivor that has no issues dealing with tunneling. You cant complain and say "get good" to a tunneler and not say it to the survivors that cant counter it. Tunneling is exactly what people wanted….constant chase. Well now the one that gets tunneled is in constant chase. People should be careful what they wish for.
You didn't read what I wrote.
We are seeing blights and ghoul EVERY match because this is what people have brought onto themselves
Did they, now?
they asked for other killers to be nerfed
Which they didn't get.
they asked for no tunneling
Which they didn't get.
no slow down perks
Which they didn't get.
they join SWF with comms
Which most actually don't get.
the result is people will play S tier killers alot more which kills the variety of the game.
So a bunch of people hallucinating some alternate timeline in which survivors get everything they demand are the reason we are seeing exclusively S-tiers?
I dont use S tier killers or slow down perks…instead i choose to tunnel to even the playing the field.
It's nice that you try to draw this dichotomy, but a lot of people also experience that it's specifically the slow-stacked S-tiers that are most likely to tunnel, which throws another spanner in your theory of 'it's all the survivors' fault'.
As previously said if gen speeds got reduced and tunneling is allowed then i will still tunnel
Which kind of throws the 'tunnelling is prevalent because gen speeds are too high' argument out the window, doesn't it?
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Balance is a scale, 60/40 is the balance the devs set…BALANCE. its not 50/50 even balance is 60/40 balance in favour of killer but its still on the scale of balance.
Pretty much everything you said there was flat out wrong lol. killers did get nerfed…skull merchant? Myers? they complained for years about tombstone, now thats gone people still complain.
You say most dont actually get SWF with comms but thats your experience…mine is very different and constantly get SWF teams to the point i get them repeatedly throughout the night sometimes multiple times in a row. Others have also seen this SWF influx so its not just me.
You have evidence of it being S tier killers that are more likely to tunnel? this is not the case in my matches because most S tier killers are speedy killers that bring pain res which is useless for a tunneling killer.
It doesnt throw the argument out the window at all because the reason i started tunneling in the first place was due to gen speeds. If that wasnt the case i would never have even considered tunneling, it would never have been part of my rule set to tunnel. Its like saying gen rushers will rush regardless of if tunneling is nerfed so the ones saying they gen rush to compete with tunneling have no valid argument because they will still gen rush.
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Balance is a scale, 60/40 is the balance the devs set…BALANCE. its not 50/50 even balance is 60/40 balance in favour of killer but its still on the scale of balance.
You put 60 kg on one scale and 40 kg on the other, are they in balance?
Pretty much everything you said there was flat out wrong lol. killers did get nerfed…skull merchant? Myers? they complained for years about tombstone, now thats gone people still complain.
Legion got buffed. Clown got buffed. Singularity got buffed. Pyramid Head got buffed. Freddy got buffed.
All the lower tier killers have been pushed upwards to make them stronger and help them compete with S-tiers. You're acting like survivors got all other killers nerfed when the majority of them have only gone up in killrates. The only notable exceptions being Skull Merchant, whose gameplay was fundamentally broken, and Krasue, who was busted OP on release.
So no, you can't pin this on survivors 'getting other killers nerfed'.
You say most dont actually get SWF with comms but thats your experience
It's nothing to do with experience, it's BHVR's stats. Most players you encounter will not be in swiffers, and not every swiffer is on comms.
It doesnt throw the argument out the window at all because the reason i started tunneling in the first place was due to gen speeds.
No, it was due to losing, remember? You lost a couple of matches, and then you started tunnelling. You are now backwards rationalising it to be whatever it is that you want nerfed, but even if gen speeds never increased (Which they didn't), you would've found another excuse to start tunnelling because all it took to get you going that direction was losing.
It's not gen speeds that dictated your shift to tunnelling, it's losing.
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did i say i lost a couple of matches? no….i said i lost match after match, this went on for months until i had a choice, stop playing or find a way to even the odds. i found a way to even the odds and now my matches are pretty balanced, now i win some i lose some.
Using your same argument of losing to justify tunneling not gen speeds…. Survivors losing to tunneling is what makes them hate it. If survivors can loop a tuneling killer all match they wouldnt have an issue but its the fact they lose they have an issue with it. Works both ways
While BHVR stats show most people are not in SWF it does not reflect my matches as killer where its rare i got solo players. If your using BHVR stats then we have to consider the fact the even solo players are escaping 40% of the time and thats with killers tunneling, which shows tunneling isnt an issue. You either have to say BHVR stats are correct and tunneling isnt an issue because people are escaping or say they are not always accurate and dont always reflect players matches. which is it?
Fact remains that survivors want something (tunneling nerfed). They are the ones with the issue and unless they compromise on a solution then tunneling will remain. Nerf it to the ground without meaningful compromises and killers will walk away. Considering killers dont have bots to replace them at the moment i think its pretty important to keep killers playing.
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did i say i lost a couple of matches? no….i said i lost match after match, this went on for months
This does more to indicate it's just confirmation bias hard at work. You omit your wins to focus on the losses. Unless you actually did lose that badly, which would be pretty embarrassing, considering the killrates never notably shifted, meaning no one else was having this issue.
Again, though, you just focus on the fact that you lost and then try to pin it on one specific factor while ignoring all others. You putting on a losing spree spanning months is not evidence of gen speeds being too high, because there's another constant in all your matches: You.
If someone spends 50 consecutive matches standing still and doing nothing, they'll also 'lose match after match', but you can hardly blame gen speeds for that.
So why are you certain it's gen speeds?
Using your same argument of losing to justify tunneling not gen speeds…. Survivors losing to tunneling is what makes them hate it.
Wrong. People hate tunnelling even if the killer loses, because it makes for really boring gameplay. One person gets to do nothing but chase, the other three get to do nothing but M1 on a gen.
If survivors cared so much about their winrates, they'd revolt against the 40% escape rate benchmark, but they don't.
While BHVR stats show most people are not in SWF it does not reflect my matches as killer where its rare i got solo players.
And how would you know that, precisely? Because it's a pretty bold claim to make in a game that does not show swiffers.
Also, again, confirmation bias. You could go for three, four matches against solos in a row and when you get your second swiffer of the evening: 'See? Back to back swiffers!'
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It doesnt make any sense to discuss this with someone like you who just turns everything around for his own agenda. At peak gameplay the nurse is the strongest side. Tunneling cant be countered. Thats both common sense. Otherwise, if tunneling could be countered, why do we have to argue against tunneling for years now? Then it wouldnt be an issue to be talked about. Also SWF doesnt compensate for no skill, while tunneling actually does circumvent core gameplay (at equal terms).
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your saying things like they are facts but they are not, they are just you refusing to accept anything that goes against your own views. first you say "win a couple of matches" which isnt the case at all. Now your saying im omitting wins which you have no evidence whatsoever for this claim. its nonsensical opinions not fact. The fact is, when i did lose time after time for months and my kill rate dropped the actual stats showed kill rates were below 60%. its only recently they have hit the 60% the devs aimed for. Makes sense that the kill rate goes up when people finally started tunneling, now we have the current situation of killers tunneling and the 60% kill rate remaining steady.
Your again not applying your own arguments to the survivor side. The people that are losing due to being tunneled is not because they are being tunneled its because they are losing and the one constant is them in every match. By trying to debunk gen speeds as a reason for tunneling your actually debunking any complaint survivors have for tunneling. So for all the survivors that complain about being tunneled every match and struggle to escape….the one constant is you.
For years people have actually complained about doing gens and the only fun part is getting chased so it would make more sense that the 1 being tunnled is having all the fun and the 3 others sat on gens are doing the boring bit… thats a freebee, i wont be helping you out with any other of your aguments lol.
Lots have openly said they want 50 50 balance and dont think 40% is the right target to aim for so once again this argument is flawed. Ever wonder why survivors that loop the killer for 3 or 4 gens love it and they would do it all much if they could? its because they get chased and WIN. when the killer downs them, suddenly they dont like being chased anymore and want to do the easy bit of sitting on gens because they know they cant win by looping. funny how the most fun part of the game being chases becomes 2nd priority to gens when they dont win.
Its easy to know SWF teams when they admit it post match, i see them in the same lobby together and never with anyone else, they are friends on steam, thats without the plays they can do that would be impossible without comms like knowing exactly when the stealth is coming in an indoor map. Play the same people time and time again and you start to learn who the SWF teams are.
Again your making some very wild assumptions based on nothing. i didnt say anything about back to back SWF when i get 2nd SWF of the evening. i said SWF teams are a common place in my killer matches and solo players are rare. If your going to argue a point you shouldnt make up scenarios and assume….it makes an ass out of u and me.
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sounds like someone that throws out an argument for one side and when that same argument is thrown back at them its suddenly "dont work for both sides".
Tunneling can be countered. i am countering every night to the point as survivor i have no issues with tunneling killers. We argue about tunneling because survivors often refuse to learn any other way to play other than mindlessly run and loop. many opt not to even use the anti tunnel perks available to them.
SWF does compensate for no skill because i have played in a duo with a brand new player with 0 skill at all and they escaped for more with me as a duo SWF than they ever did in solo. I have seen it, lived it, even seen people that play in SWF regularly say they wont do solo because its brutal…ye it can be when you rely on better team mates and comms to carry you.
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This proves my point. The boosts killers got for spreading hooks did not effect gen speeds which is why killers did not agree to it.Backwards reasoning. You're saying that killers refusal to even consider changes is the fault of survivors.
The compromise is simple, nerf tunneling then gens need to be nerfed too. give and take.Literally what the anti-tunnel was. Both sides where getting something, with the numbers up for discussion. And there was no outcry from the killers 'hey, this is great, but let's just change the gen speeds instead' - that's just a fiction you've created.
If individual experience is anecdotal then same can be said for anyone saying they cant counter tunnelingIf that's all it is, then of course its an anecdote.
But you're again being evasive and not engaging with the point: "People have explained, logically, many times, why tunneling creates a bad game without relying solely upon individual experiences."
it works both ways, you cant dismiss a killer saying they are losing match after match and not dismiss a survivor saying they lose match after matchStrawman argument. There are many possibilities that could be the case for either of those scenarios.
Everyone has complaints, that does not mean everyone's complaints are equally applicable to the broader community and/or reasonable.
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Wrong. People hate tunnelling even if the killer loses, because it makes for really boring gameplay. One person gets to do nothing but chase, the other three get to do nothing but M1 on a gen.If survivors cared so much about their winrates, they'd revolt against the 40% escape rate benchmark, but they don't.That's very well put. Survivors were totally willing to accept BHVR's promise that if anti-tunnel lowered kill rates they'd boost killers.
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you cant offer something meaningless and say there we go offered you something. if thats the case then slightly nerf tunneling but not enough to make any difference and survivors would be ok with it? not likely.
Both sides were not getting anything meaningful…meaningful being the word to use here. Lots were saying when the PTB failed that number tweaks isnr enough, gens still fly.
you say people have explained logically but they havnt, they have explained because they cant counter it. logically it would best for people to adapt like i have.
i noticed when people have no valid argument they often say "strawman" as a means to say "ye i cant argue against it but i wont say that sooooo…… strawman"
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Now your saying im omitting wins which you have no evidence whatsoever for this claim.
Listen: You are throwing an anecdote at the wall here. And according to this anecdote, you managed to get a string of losses that lasted you for months on end. At the same time, this is not reflected among a majority of players, it is not reflected in the stats. Even most newbie killers would likely still score wins here and there.
So your insistence on using a completely unverifiable anecdote as hard evidence of the issue of 'gen speeds' is baseless and preposterous.
The fact is, when i did lose time after time for months and my kill rate dropped the actual stats showed kill rates were below 60%.
This one should be verifiable though! I'd like to see the support for this claim, if you please.
its only recently they have hit the 60% the devs aimed for.
September 2022.
It was neatly at 60% at that point. That's not 'recent'.
The people that are losing due to being tunneled is not because they are being tunneled its because they are losing
Again, if the losing part was the problem, you'd see people be more upset about the fact that the game is intentionally balanced against them.
For years people have actually complained about doing gens and the only fun part is getting chased so it would make more sense that the 1 being tunnled is having all the fun and the 3 others sat on gens are doing the boring bit… thats a freebee, i wont be helping you out with any other of your aguments lol.
Do you actually read what I write, or do you just guesstimate?
Lots have openly said they want 50 50 balance
And how often do we see threads dedicated to demanding that, versus the amount of threads we see talking about gen speed nerfs? Topics about the 40/60 rate never get any traction because people don't care enough about it. Survivors are fine with losing, so long as they can have a good time during it.
Ever wonder why survivors that loop the killer for 3 or 4 gens love it and they would do it all much if they could? its because they get chased and WIN. when the killer downs them, suddenly they dont like being chased anymore and want to do the easy bit of sitting on gens because they know they cant win by looping. funny how the most fun part of the game being chases becomes 2nd priority to gens when they dont win.
Goomba fallacy ahoy?
thats without the plays they can do that would be impossible without comms like knowing exactly when the stealth is coming in an indoor map.
The most 'that's definitely a swiffer' play I ever made was in solo queue.
Also, it's pretty funny to insist that you keep getting matched with the same people but think it's not possible that these same people also get matched within the same pool. Must be swiffer.
Again, you don't have proof they're in a swiffer, much less that they're on comms.
Again your making some very wild assumptions based on nothing. i didnt say anything about back to back SWF when i get 2nd SWF of the evening. i said SWF teams are a common place in my killer matches and solo players are rare. If your going to argue a point you shouldnt make up scenarios and assume….it makes an ass out of u and me.
No, I'm illustrating how confirmation bias can play a role in twisting your perception. You're arguing completely out of emotion and anecdote, both of which are unreliable.
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are you oblivious of the posts here recently saying 40% is not enough? or even the posts hating the fact i leave people on the hook to die at the end game instead of saving them? they had a good match, dont matter they didnt win right? ye im pretty sure they do care about losing. which is backed up by them loving to loop all match but hate it when they go down.
you seem to be ignoring everything or just not reading…i have said these SWF teams have openly admitted to being in a team and using comms. there is post match chat and steam profiles so yet another failed argument based on incorrect information.
my arguments are based on facts not emotion, i do what i need to do to win. sounds like the ones getting upset about being tunneled are complaining out of emotion lol
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Then fine, nerf gen speeds in conjunction with rolling out anti-cheese. But this "I'll stop tunneling if the gen speeds change" pinky swear honor system thing is bs.
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im fine with that, i have never said take it on faith or promise that people would stop tunneling because they wont, regardless of the initial reasoning why they started tunneling in the first place. No different to people saying they promise they wont gen rush if tunneling gets nerfed, even if the reason why they started gen rushing was because of killers tunneling, cant take it on promise alone. Nor should we take it on a simple promise, if its available to do then people are free to do it and it would be wrong to tell them "play by my rules, dont tunnel/gen rush". If both were nerfed where tunneling was no longer a winning strat and rushing the gens still gave time for killers to spread hooks then everyone is happy, survivors get an end to tunneling and killers get more time to spread hooks.
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you cant offer something meaningless and say there we go offered you something.They were offering three types of unique hook benefits.
if thats the case then slightly nerf tunneling but not enough to make any difference and survivors would be ok with it? not likely.Balance issue - if they had made the unique hook gen kick benefit 100% of course I'd complain about it, but that doesn't mean the concept itself was wrong, just the numbers.
Many killers had concerns about the number of hooks that counted for anti-tunnel or the extent of the penalty. That's fine, as I already said I think everyone was in agreement that the numbers would need tweaks.
However, even before we got any numbers or suggestions on what would happen, there was a lot of killers who were outright opposed to any sort of anti-tunnel.
i noticed when people have no valid argument they often say "strawman" as a means to say "ye i cant argue against it but i wont say that sooooo…… strawman"You can't argue against a strawman because its not a real argument - its one person trying to dictate what the other person's argument is while avoiding their actual argument because they don't have a counter.
In this case you're trying to cover up your reliance on anecdotes by making up a person on the other side who might be relying on anecdotes, except at no point have I made that my argument, thus a strawman.
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exactly, unique hook benefits…. doesnt help the killer hook to get the benefits and they didnt stop gens flying. An exaggeration of what actually was offered was basically this: "if the killer makes separate hooks, they get rewarded by getting an instant win". Survivors knowing that the killer will struggle to hook everyone 4 times and will get all gens done in that timeframe were like "sure, im good with that" because they knew what was offered was not addressing the issue and would not stop gens flying. Its an exaggeration but its pretty much what it boils down to. Sounds like a good deal but the truth and reality was that removing tunneling when gens still fly didnt work, so much so that killers actually threatened to stop playing.
Reliance on anecdotes and personal experience is all anyone has to go on. Simply put, i provide my arguments not based on theory or what i see from streamers or imaginary scenarios, or even stats that are wll known to be incorrect… i argue based on facts of my own matches as a regular player with nothing special. As survivor i have no issues with tunneling killers because of how i play. As killer i have no issues with gen speeds because how i play. Logic says its not an issue if the problem can be solved with a simple change in playstyle.
It just proves my point though, survivors want but not willing to give. One day maybe survivors will learn to counter these issues by actually changing from the one playstyle they only know how to use. Facts remain, tunneling has always been part of the game and 2 failed PTB suggest its likely to stay part of the game. Even with number tweaks, as long as tunneling remains a viable option people will tunnel. tweak the numbers so its no longer viable and killers quit. lose lose situation, maybe its time to change tact and try a PTB with increased gen times and see how that goes? i would love to see who complains more, survivors over the gen speeds or killers over the anti-tunneling. My money is on survivors.
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Survivors knowing that the killer will struggle to hook everyone 4 timesThat was never the suggestion. That's just making something up, which leads us to:
Sounds like a good deal but the truth and reality was that removing tunneling when gens still fly didnt work, so much so that killers actually threatened to stop playing.Tunneling was never going to be removed. What was discussed was weakening the incentives to do it, while giving benefits to other styles of play.
Reliance on anecdotes and personal experience is all anyone has to go on.If that was true then discussion would be impossible and pointless. Game design ideas can be discussed in a reasonable and logical fashion.
Example: during the anti-tunnel discussions, one of the unique hook benefits was the basekit BBQ. Some killers argued this would be useless as it survivors would just jump in lockers. Except, logically, that's untrue - if survivors jump in lockers, they aren't on gens, giving the exact type of slowdown that was being requested.
Logic says its not an issue if the problem can be solved with a simple change in playstyle.You're confusing both anecdotes and evidence as well as balance and enjoyability concerns. As many, many survivors have explained, tunneling leads to a bad game experience even if the survivors win. If you enjoy it, great, but that's not a metric for game design.
You're also very single minded on the adaptability - people need to adapt to your preferred style, but the idea of you adapting to a change in game design is out of the question.
Even with number tweaks, as long as tunneling remains a viable option people will tunnel.Again, strawman. You're now trying to mix in a discussion of ethics of tunneling into a discussion of game design elements.
It's also setting up a false comparison - tunneling somehow being entirely nuked out of the game in return for some minute killer buffs. The issue was always tunneling being a possibility, except the 3v1 being made stronger if it happened, in return for unique hook benefits that made the 4v1 easier for the killer. And plenty of survivors were open to discussions on what those benefits / trade offs should be to keep the game balanced.
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yes it was the suggestion, the concept of giving a meaningless reward that does not actually benefit the killer and does not stop survivors rushing gens has always been the suggestion why the anti tunnel failed. This backed up by the amount of killers saying gen fly too fast.
Weakening the incentives to tunnel will never work. Thats not a theory or speculation, thats based on fact that as long as tunneling remains a viable option i myself will not stop tunneling so it makes sense that other killers might feel the same. The PTB punished killers for tunneling and essentially did remove it as a viable strat…it was no longer a winning strat. Result is what we have seen, failed PTB and killers saying they will quit.
People didnt say basekit bbq could be easily countered with lockers, they said it was pointless with low tier killers. Great we know the survivors location is on the other side of the map….how do we get there when killers like trapper have such little mobility where killers like blight can zoom over to them in an instant? It made S tiers stronger and made low tiers weaker by giving them a meaningless "buff". There is a reason why low tier low mobility killers dont use the perk bbq often compared to killers like blight and billy. This was tested and proven and people voiced their own individual experience playing the PTB…but you would argue "pft thats anecdotal and personal experience, no need to take that into account".
As far as enjoyment goes, people bring it on themselves to not enjoy the game. They refuse to use anti tunnel perks, they refuse to learn any other way of playing, they refuse to help themselves then say its unfun because the killer tunneled. killers could do that too…refuse to tunnel, refuse to bring chase perks, refuse to use S tier killers, refuse to help themselves then say "the game is unfun because survivors loop and pre run". No, people need to take reasonability and ownership of their own fun and stop expecting others to make the game fun for them. i enjoy the game as killer and survivor, that clearly shows the game can be enjoyable for both sides.
In no world is 4 v 1 better for the killer compared to 3 v 1, thats simple math and no amount number adjustment would change that because if there are 3 strong loopers and 1 weak looper then that 1 weak looper will go out fast. Anything that meant it punishes the killer for eliminating a player which is the goal of the killer and you get killer revolt as we saw. Survivors were open to discussion to what benefits the killer received and only seemed ok with anything that didnt mean they would suffer any sort of meaningful nerf. Not only that but the survivors were never open to the concept of nerfing gen speeds which is my point. It makes no sense for survivors to try and bargain when they have nothing to bargain with which is exactly what happened.
Survivor - "we want you to stop tunneling"
killer - "ok make it profitable to not take out someone asap"
survivor - "we will give you these pointless buffs that makes no difference whatsoever and you can be punished for tunneling"
killer - "not a chance"
survivor - "just stop tunneling, its not fun"
killer - "ok, nerf gens speeds so we can spread hooks"
survivor - Not a chance, gens are boring"
killer - "fair enough get tunneled"
See how survivors are not the ones in a position to be bargaining when killers have openly said what it will take for survivors to get what they want?
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