Is The First OP?
Enough time has past it's time to discuss if the First is OP or not now what drived me to make this post was cause I've seen talk from creators like Otz and Hens saying he's not Op and actually exhaustion perks destroys the First and that exhaustion perks need to be nerfed.
What do you think?
Comments
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i dont really think so. I mean his vine attack slows him after use, even after if he misses. With his undergate attack unless you you hit center it usually misses, otherwise its used as a way to push survivors off gens and damage gens/break pallets if you have the addon
12 -
No, he has clear counterplay and strengths and weaknesses
Weakness being distance and LOS breakers and smart gameplay
Strength being strong mobility and tunnel potential and fast chase potential, but the chase part is completely dependent on player skill. If vecna is worse than survivor he will struggle with hits
in my opinion perfectly balanced doest need nerf or buff. in average games he might dominate because there's always a weak link who gives him free hits and this is like giving oni free hits, you cant nerf a killer because a noob in your team throws
7 -
By "clear counterplay" you mean "just don't be found" and "guess better"?
-5 -
“exhaustion perks need to be nerfed”🫠
8 -
I have some news for you, this is the general counterplay to literally every single killer in the game even trapper.
18 -
Guessing what the killer is going to do is the literal definition of counterplay.
7 -
He needs some minor adjustments in my opinion mainly around how well the clock works as counterplay.
I think the clocks give too much guaranteed power time for how easily he is able to get it back up. I think the clocks need to reduce the timer more then it currently does.
I think more survivors would accept the spammy nature of the power if the clocks felt like better counterplay.
Edit: this would also lead to survivors doing clocks more often as you go in and out of clock mode more often.-1 -
Short answer to this is No.
The long answer is Yes and No
Why I feel he is OP
In the right hands he is OP. I have been playing him since release and honestly put more hours into him than i have played DBD over the last 6 months as i find him extremely fun to play. This means i am getting used to his power and the little tricks needed to get good with him. There are times i down a survivor after 4 perfect hits (2 to get into power then 2 to down them) and i do think sometimes "Man this killer is a tad OP kind of needs a nerf".
However there are times when i play him and miss a hit with his power then have to spend 3 - 5 business days catching back up to the survivor because he is so god damn slow.I feel like he is similar to Nurse and Blight. In the hands of a new/casual player he is extremely hard to play. If you miss your shot you lose so much distance, have to spend a while catching up and pray you don't miss the next one. But on the flip side those players who put the time to learn his power will start destroying survivor teams.
Why I feel he isn't OP
Firstly he is a slow killer. His slower movement speed means a survivor just has to hold W and you will have such a long chase. He is shut down fairly easily in a chase by any haste perk, if you don't run aura read then your just shooting blind especially on indoor maps where survivors can break line of sight all the time.
Secondly he is shut down by anything with elevation. I'm not talking about multi level maps like the game or RPD im talking about parts of the map that has temporary elevation. As an example the hills on the outdoor maps. You can't shoot thru them which means you have no choice but to either run around them or leave chase.
When your trying to get quick hits with your power if a survivor is near a staircase, The hill, even things like the railings on dead dog saloon then your power will end up hitting something completely different.I've been testing various counter plays with him with my wife in customs and there are a fair few things that you can do to shut him down.
Firstly Deception. Because he is a slower movement speed killer I personally find that deception is messing me up, You hear a locker and think the survivor is just hiding from your power. by time u get there you have no visual on the survivor because of the distance they have gained and i would say 7/10 times I have just completely lost the survivor.
Any sort of haste perk. Be it temp haste like sprint burst or lithe or a more perm haste like boon this really messes with the killer. Normally if you can light up the circle so the survivor is dead center then you are guaranteed a hit. But if survivor has any haste then that is no longer the case.
And simply Holding W. This won't let you escape but holding W and not taking a weird side to side path to lose distance will ensure that the chase with Vecna lasts longer than it should.3 -
yes, if you bring aura reading perks. no, if you don’t bring aura reading perks.
-5 -
Hes clearly overtuned and as unfun to verse as nurse.
5 -
No I think he is solid B tier killer. The power is pretty easy to dodge.
-15 -
He's strong, but not OP. I'd place him around the same tier as the likes of Executioner or Nemesis. Just 50/50s, really. His power is incredibly strong if he's patient with firing it, but the same goes for Nemy and Pyramidhead. The undetectable I don't think is too much of an issue too as on most maps he will pretty much never hit it.
-5 -
I think it's too early to definitively say, but at this stage I say no. I think that, much like Nurse, the people who put the hours in will do pretty darn well with him. But casual players will probably be hit and miss.
The nerfing exhaustion perks argument is kind of funny, like, sorry it's interfering with their 500 winstreak or whatever?
14 -
In my experience, Vecna feels a lot more like a slower but more consistent Unknown. He's powerful, but good players tends to waste too much of his time trying to proc power (once you learn to dodge with hearing rather than watching Vecna move, he becomes much easier to dodge). Thus, his power can feel absolutely useless at times outside of indoor environments with closed spaces. The fact that he's 4.4m/s only accentuates his weaknesses further
3 -
hes jus annoying to verse, he can spam attacks and even get lucky hits, thats like gambling, and its not fun losing against it.
2 -
Theres and argument saying since Hold W is strong against the First he needs to be 115% move speed to help against hold W
-6 -
Funny enough your right about the win streak thing a big reason why I even made this thread was cause Otz was doing a First Win streak and him saying the First was weak and exhaustion perks need to be nerfed. Hens also shares the same argument.
5 -
I think he is a very balanced killer.
-5 -
Very solid killer, little more overrated from content creators like he is great when you chase survivor that doesnt change direction and is readeable as book for 5 year old running straight like headless chicken but once you go against survivors that can evade your attacks while holding W than you will struggle.
Hitting his vine attack isnt easy and is like phead attack only its little easier but he has to hit more hits (2 more on one survivor to start the clock so he can damage with his vine attack). Missing with him is punished by distance which on killer that moves slover by regular speed and when holding his vine attack is very punishing.
His mobility isnt bad but you dont hear a thing due to its loud noice so things like fiding a hatch with it are worse than just walking with his 110 speed, his mobility isnt great for catching up because his exit attack takes pretty long and survivor will get free distance when he runs straight, looping him around hooked survivor makes him 110 m1 killer brcause his powers are very bad using close to hooked survivors so if someone runs shack and other surv is hooked down there in basement you cant win that shack in short time.
Overall nicely done killer, I dont think he needs some changes he is pretty well done.
-4 -
Hes A-S tier, nobody mastered him yet.
5 -
if he was balanced killer people wouldnt do 100 winstreaks, so many content creators are on the 100s winstreak with him currently, and he was just released lmao, the best way to balance this killer is make strict mmr, put him against comp ready swf every game lol
6 -
If you managed to get a 100 winstreak with trapper does that make him not balanced?
1 -
- Considering a Vecna of "average" skill (i.e. not too good, but not too bad either), it is not OP. His M2 is really easy to dodge, much easier than Pyramid Head's M2 for example. In my opinion, Devs should revisit the Clock mechanic: Survivors waste way too much time with the clock... I think he's the longest "secondary objective" killer in the game, longer than Pig and his Bear Traps, longer than Pinhead and his cube, longer than Alien and his turrets. This is why Hex Totem builds are so common with Vecna. Considering his power and good mobility, he doesn't need this extra "help." I would fix this by adding 1 more clock to the map, decreasing the music listening "time", and if 2 survivors listen to music, the time should be LITERALLY halved, currently if 2 survivors listen to music, it changes almost nothing.
3 -
He is very powerful. But, his power is relative to the skill of the user, I'd say.
One thing that is undoubtebly overtuned, is the Worldbreaker duration. It simply is too long for the small amount of effort you put in.
3 -
I'm not sure whether I'd consider him OP, but he suffers from a problem that a few killers have that I personally cannot stand, which is my teammates actions leading to a disadvantage in my chases. It's the same with Myers and Oni, where the killer will charge their power on my teammates, and I'm the one who gets punished for it. Really drives me up the wall.
7 -
He is strong but not overpowered. I like that there is counterplay against him but not so much that it completely shuts his power down
0 -
I would say he isn't but I can see how someone would think he was. Especially if you're like me and play First with a bunch of aura reading perks.
I wouldn't be against his power getting a small cooldown increase but I wouldn't complain if he stayed the way he is right now.
1 -
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I think the reason why the First has guaranteed uncleansable time is in testing he didn't have that and survivors just being able to knock you outta your power as much as you can get made it frustrating.
0 -
As of right now I think the First is around A tier I think his Vine attack is fairly easy to dodge and undergate attack is just not that good.
I do think exhaustion perks and hold W is strong against this Killer but I don't think exhaustion perks need to nerfed.
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The issue is if you did this then he would for sure be to over powered. Although its annoying having a suvivor holding W you can counter it with perks such as batteries or other haste perks. Given that his power is really powerful at mid/high level then he does need some drawback else your playing an M1 killer with a kick ass power
1 -
Solid upper B tier probably, might go up to lower A tier as people get better playing as him. Tough to say though too early for that.
-6 -
I'm on the fence about this. As usual it's really a dependant on survivor skill. If you can consistently dodge his vine attack then he's pretty balanced.
But if you can't, then as soon as he gets a worldbreaker trigger he'll have you down remarkably quickly, and can easily hook 2 survivors by the end of a worldbreaker trigger.
His basekit also leans into tunneling very well, that and aura read spam means he can get some pretty jammy hits during worldbreaker. It's like if nurse could injure people just by blinking into them without needing to take a swing.
Overall i think he is a little OP on balance, mainly for low to mid mmr. Personally I would mess with his undergate travel and try and make is ranged attack a little less spammy.
Tbh I have no idea why he can still see and hear everything he normally would in undergate travel. Even aura read. Personally I'd cut out all sound and hide scratch marks. He's an absolute bloodhound when it comes to chasing someone after an unhook. Every pther traversal killer gets a visual or sound limitation. Idk why henry doesn't.
As for the vines I'd decrease the radius a tiny bit or maybe give it a slightly longer cooldown if it lands an injuring attack. Getting 2 tapped with it during worldbreaker is amazingly frustrating.
0 -
Thing is the clocks are his only real power of dealing damage with his power (m2 or mobility exit animation) and he needs two hits on the same survivor to start them and as you said his attacks are easy to avoid (like phead he must hit where will survvior be in 0,6 seconds Idk about and down will be stats from wiki to make bigger picture, keep in mind survvior makes distance of 4 m/s in 1 second).
Vine Attack - Area Of Effect:
- Area of Effect delay: 0.6 seconds
- Area of Effect linger time: 0.3 seconds
- Area of Effect radius: 1.46 metres
- Area of Effect height: 5 metres
- Anti-camp range = 8 metres
- Anti-camp Area of Effect delay: 6 seconds
So from this if i get it right the hitbox of his vine attack (m2) is 1,46 meters wide (the circles widness from which vines come from) and 0,6 second from 4m/s is (60%) 2,4 meters so in that time survivor can doge hitbox by 1 meter, its close call but he wont be damaged.
Pyramidhead is I think more hard to hit because his punishment (m2 attack) travels slow and has 0,5 meters wide hitbox which can be doged quite easily even in narrow corridors or parts of the loops.
Thing about clocks is that if they nerf it too much than he wont be that good and will be more like uknown aka harmless where when he gets clock and misses more he wont get anything from his power just two pointles m2 hits that started it and I fear this because I dont want to have another uknown situation on cool killer.
Put downvotes here if you dislike facts held by basic math Idc.
-5 -
He will drop in time as wesker did and many others.
-8 -
- No, maybe you didn't read that right. I'm saying to leave everything as is, just speed up the "clock process" for survivors, so his "guaranteed m2" timer isn't affected at all. Also, unlike any other killer, New Vecna is the only one who pauses his m2 timer while hooking someone... so he can make his hook with complete peace of mind, without fear of wasting a single second of time. Let's just say it's clear that this is a licensed killer.🤣
3 -
A deeply dull and problematic design. The only thing holding back the power is the skill of the player utilizing it. It's why Nurse and Hyperfocus have remained the strongest tools of each role; the user is generally not good enough to harness the power. I truly do not agree with the designed theoretical power level provided with the assumption that not too many people will come close to perfection.
When I log on, it's because I want to enjoy Dead by Daylight. I would love to run, hide, take hits, and generally enjoy having autonomy over my movement and the ability to defend my teammates. This killer provides the thrill-less experience of Alucard's Shield at all times. Vault? Wrong answer. Maybe twice sometimes one. Didn't vault? Wrong answer. Maybe once sometimes twice.
This takes my amounts of fun to impoverished levels. It's 10x worse with the infinite monologuing using the same recycled and effortless voice lines. When will we be able to disable that slop?
2 -
Wesker didn't drop really in so much as they fixed a few of his things like tunneling being extra strong, and since the loops have changed. We now have far more short loops where his power is effectively useless at.
4 -
Nah bro. I'm barely managing a 55% KR with him. Not everyone is instantly good with him.
-4 -
He droped a lot and fact is he got nerfed like infection build up and infection rate was nerfed and fully infected survivor is now 4% hindered compare to old 8%.
Weskers ability is nowdays easy to counter and same as on huntress people have learned how to play against him (when he is or was in top 5 most picked killers no wonder), wesker is just not as good as he was before and without expert and harder techs and golden egg addon he is b-tier.
-5 -
The survivors don't need to be able to knock First out of power using clocks, but the amount of guaranteed time it currently gives feels to long from the survivors perspective, that's why I think the clocks should take away more time but not drain it completely.
This will reward good first players who are consistently getting shots as it will force survivors on the clocks more often, while still allowing survivors more chances to avoid going back into the clock mode.0 -
I was just telling someone the same thing for Demo regarding the short loops. I just want a long filler to shred survivors...
1 -
seems like ur doing well then, u talk like 55% is bad, what do u want 80%? if u had 80% then what about the top players? 500000%?
-2 -
60% is fine with me but if I was up against the top survivor teams exclusively it would be like 5%
1 -
55% is good result buddy, improve a bit and u will see much higher stats.
2 -
It's really annoying honestly. And it goes beyond map design, though that is a huge part of it.
Houndmaster is basically the direct upgrade to Wesker if you think about it. Faster windup (also safer, since you effectively get to be in 2 places at once), much, much lower cooldown (and no "oop you started charging your power 0.1 seconds before your 2nd charge came back, too bad, better cancel and be slowed idiot" annoyance), the dog curves around objects and completely shuts down vaults (where half the time Wesker just gets to bounce off, get no vault, and get no damage), and that's just considering the chase command function of the dog, that's not even considering the search mobility, the killer instinct shenanigans, the macro utility with dog holds, etc. Like the difference in their skill ceiling to actual value ratios is wild. It takes barely any effort to play Houndmaster effectively to get similar results to an Alran-level Wesker.
E: the only reasons you probably don't see her as often are because she still is plagued by the dog getting stuck bugs and the whole "I can just camp the pallet and stun the dog" thing. The latter can be played around pretty easily, but the former is rage inducing.
And it's not that I even want Wesker to be buffed or anything (some QoL stuff would be nice, like the aforementioned charge thing), it's just kind of absurd how powercrept he and a lot of the older killers are these days.
Post edited by ControllerFeedback on-2 -
No. His attacks are pretty simple to dodge, they give you warning before it happens. I barely see Henry. I think all together ive versed him 6 times so far. I play him more than i see him as a survivor.
His clock is easy to counter, doesnt take that long and can be done by 1 survivor. Take that away from him and he becomes useless.
if you miss 2 of your vine attacks, survivor usually gets so much distance on you. you have to slowly catch up as 4.4 killer. His undergate attack slows him down for multiple seconds giving survivor plenty of distance. Don't run straight lines, have walls between if possible and you should do fine. If you run straight and camp pallets yeah you are going to go down.
-8 -
honestly I think the real problem with exhaustion is that there is no proper balance for them. On one hand you have your Blights, Ghouls, And Billys who could care less about a sprint burst or dead hard, but for killers like trapper, ghostface, and literally any m1 killer without mobility its a death sentence.
0 -
If the dev team's official "counterplay" to the killer is "run sprint burst and prerun," yes the killer is OP lol
6 -
I think he's alright.
I don't agree with pickups pausing worldbreaker, though.
2 -
alucards shield is a fun useless meme addon that adds spice to life, what did that sddon ever do to anybody?
0
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