Is The First OP?

BongoBoys
BongoBoys Member Posts: 749
edited February 8 in General Discussions

Enough time has past it's time to discuss if the First is OP or not now what drived me to make this post was cause I've seen talk from creators like Otz and Hens saying he's not Op and actually exhaustion perks destroys the First and that exhaustion perks need to be nerfed.

What do you think?

Post edited by BongoBoys on
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Comments

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,257

    By "clear counterplay" you mean "just don't be found" and "guess better"?

  • random1543
    random1543 Member Posts: 454
    edited February 8

    He needs some minor adjustments in my opinion mainly around how well the clock works as counterplay.

    I think the clocks give too much guaranteed power time for how easily he is able to get it back up. I think the clocks need to reduce the timer more then it currently does.

    I think more survivors would accept the spammy nature of the power if the clocks felt like better counterplay.

    Edit: this would also lead to survivors doing clocks more often as you go in and out of clock mode more often.

  • Jay_K
    Jay_K Member Posts: 560

    Short answer to this is No.

    The long answer is Yes and No

    Why I feel he is OP

    In the right hands he is OP. I have been playing him since release and honestly put more hours into him than i have played DBD over the last 6 months as i find him extremely fun to play. This means i am getting used to his power and the little tricks needed to get good with him. There are times i down a survivor after 4 perfect hits (2 to get into power then 2 to down them) and i do think sometimes "Man this killer is a tad OP kind of needs a nerf".
    However there are times when i play him and miss a hit with his power then have to spend 3 - 5 business days catching back up to the survivor because he is so god damn slow.

    I feel like he is similar to Nurse and Blight. In the hands of a new/casual player he is extremely hard to play. If you miss your shot you lose so much distance, have to spend a while catching up and pray you don't miss the next one. But on the flip side those players who put the time to learn his power will start destroying survivor teams.

    Why I feel he isn't OP

    Firstly he is a slow killer. His slower movement speed means a survivor just has to hold W and you will have such a long chase. He is shut down fairly easily in a chase by any haste perk, if you don't run aura read then your just shooting blind especially on indoor maps where survivors can break line of sight all the time.

    Secondly he is shut down by anything with elevation. I'm not talking about multi level maps like the game or RPD im talking about parts of the map that has temporary elevation. As an example the hills on the outdoor maps. You can't shoot thru them which means you have no choice but to either run around them or leave chase.
    When your trying to get quick hits with your power if a survivor is near a staircase, The hill, even things like the railings on dead dog saloon then your power will end up hitting something completely different.

    I've been testing various counter plays with him with my wife in customs and there are a fair few things that you can do to shut him down.

    Firstly Deception. Because he is a slower movement speed killer I personally find that deception is messing me up, You hear a locker and think the survivor is just hiding from your power. by time u get there you have no visual on the survivor because of the distance they have gained and i would say 7/10 times I have just completely lost the survivor.
    Any sort of haste perk. Be it temp haste like sprint burst or lithe or a more perm haste like boon this really messes with the killer. Normally if you can light up the circle so the survivor is dead center then you are guaranteed a hit. But if survivor has any haste then that is no longer the case.
    And simply Holding W. This won't let you escape but holding W and not taking a weird side to side path to lose distance will ensure that the chase with Vecna lasts longer than it should.

  • MoZo
    MoZo Member Posts: 808

    yes, if you bring aura reading perks. no, if you don’t bring aura reading perks.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,727

    No I think he is solid B tier killer. The power is pretty easy to dodge.

  • KytLuna
    KytLuna Member Posts: 66

    He's strong, but not OP. I'd place him around the same tier as the likes of Executioner or Nemesis. Just 50/50s, really. His power is incredibly strong if he's patient with firing it, but the same goes for Nemy and Pyramidhead. The undetectable I don't think is too much of an issue too as on most maps he will pretty much never hit it.

  • Zer0Chill
    Zer0Chill Member Posts: 19

    In my experience, Vecna feels a lot more like a slower but more consistent Unknown. He's powerful, but good players tends to waste too much of his time trying to proc power (once you learn to dodge with hearing rather than watching Vecna move, he becomes much easier to dodge). Thus, his power can feel absolutely useless at times outside of indoor environments with closed spaces. The fact that he's 4.4m/s only accentuates his weaknesses further

  • azaxydbd
    azaxydbd Member Posts: 159

    hes jus annoying to verse, he can spam attacks and even get lucky hits, thats like gambling, and its not fun losing against it.

  • BongoBoys
    BongoBoys Member Posts: 749

    Theres and argument saying since Hold W is strong against the First he needs to be 115% move speed to help against hold W

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,807

    Very solid killer, little more overrated from content creators like he is great when you chase survivor that doesnt change direction and is readeable as book for 5 year old running straight like headless chicken but once you go against survivors that can evade your attacks while holding W than you will struggle.

    Hitting his vine attack isnt easy and is like phead attack only its little easier but he has to hit more hits (2 more on one survivor to start the clock so he can damage with his vine attack). Missing with him is punished by distance which on killer that moves slover by regular speed and when holding his vine attack is very punishing.

    His mobility isnt bad but you dont hear a thing due to its loud noice so things like fiding a hatch with it are worse than just walking with his 110 speed, his mobility isnt great for catching up because his exit attack takes pretty long and survivor will get free distance when he runs straight, looping him around hooked survivor makes him 110 m1 killer brcause his powers are very bad using close to hooked survivors so if someone runs shack and other surv is hooked down there in basement you cant win that shack in short time.

    Overall nicely done killer, I dont think he needs some changes he is pretty well done.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,625

    If you managed to get a 100 winstreak with trapper does that make him not balanced?

  • ImWinston
    ImWinston Member Posts: 777
    • Considering a Vecna ​​of "average" skill (i.e. not too good, but not too bad either), it is not OP. His M2 is really easy to dodge, much easier than Pyramid Head's M2 for example. In my opinion, Devs should revisit the Clock mechanic: Survivors waste way too much time with the clock... I think he's the longest "secondary objective" killer in the game, longer than Pig and his Bear Traps, longer than Pinhead and his cube, longer than Alien and his turrets. This is why Hex Totem builds are so common with Vecna. Considering his power and good mobility, he doesn't need this extra "help." I would fix this by adding 1 more clock to the map, decreasing the music listening "time", and if 2 survivors listen to music, the time should be LITERALLY halved, currently if 2 survivors listen to music, it changes almost nothing.
  • SoGo
    SoGo Member Posts: 4,453

    He is very powerful. But, his power is relative to the skill of the user, I'd say.

    One thing that is undoubtebly overtuned, is the Worldbreaker duration. It simply is too long for the small amount of effort you put in.

  • Linkdouken
    Linkdouken Member Posts: 754

    He is strong but not overpowered. I like that there is counterplay against him but not so much that it completely shuts his power down

  • DragonMasterDarren
    DragonMasterDarren Member Posts: 3,097

    I would say he isn't but I can see how someone would think he was. Especially if you're like me and play First with a bunch of aura reading perks.

    I wouldn't be against his power getting a small cooldown increase but I wouldn't complain if he stayed the way he is right now.

  • BongoBoys
    BongoBoys Member Posts: 749

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I think the reason why the First has guaranteed uncleansable time is in testing he didn't have that and survivors just being able to knock you outta your power as much as you can get made it frustrating.

  • BongoBoys
    BongoBoys Member Posts: 749

    As of right now I think the First is around A tier I think his Vine attack is fairly easy to dodge and undergate attack is just not that good.

    I do think exhaustion perks and hold W is strong against this Killer but I don't think exhaustion perks need to nerfed.

  • Jay_K
    Jay_K Member Posts: 560

    The issue is if you did this then he would for sure be to over powered. Although its annoying having a suvivor holding W you can counter it with perks such as batteries or other haste perks. Given that his power is really powerful at mid/high level then he does need some drawback else your playing an M1 killer with a kick ass power

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,721

    Solid upper B tier probably, might go up to lower A tier as people get better playing as him. Tough to say though too early for that.

  • HoodedWildKard
    HoodedWildKard Member Posts: 2,160

    I'm on the fence about this. As usual it's really a dependant on survivor skill. If you can consistently dodge his vine attack then he's pretty balanced.

    But if you can't, then as soon as he gets a worldbreaker trigger he'll have you down remarkably quickly, and can easily hook 2 survivors by the end of a worldbreaker trigger.

    His basekit also leans into tunneling very well, that and aura read spam means he can get some pretty jammy hits during worldbreaker. It's like if nurse could injure people just by blinking into them without needing to take a swing.

    Overall i think he is a little OP on balance, mainly for low to mid mmr. Personally I would mess with his undergate travel and try and make is ranged attack a little less spammy.

    Tbh I have no idea why he can still see and hear everything he normally would in undergate travel. Even aura read. Personally I'd cut out all sound and hide scratch marks. He's an absolute bloodhound when it comes to chasing someone after an unhook. Every pther traversal killer gets a visual or sound limitation. Idk why henry doesn't.

    As for the vines I'd decrease the radius a tiny bit or maybe give it a slightly longer cooldown if it lands an injuring attack. Getting 2 tapped with it during worldbreaker is amazingly frustrating.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,807

    Thing is the clocks are his only real power of dealing damage with his power (m2 or mobility exit animation) and he needs two hits on the same survivor to start them and as you said his attacks are easy to avoid (like phead he must hit where will survvior be in 0,6 seconds Idk about and down will be stats from wiki to make bigger picture, keep in mind survvior makes distance of 4 m/s in 1 second).

    Vine Attack - Area Of Effect:

    • Area of Effect delay: 0.6 seconds
    • Area of Effect linger time: 0.3 seconds
    • Area of Effect radius: 1.46 metres
    • Area of Effect height: 5 metres
    • Anti-camp range = 8 metres
    • Anti-camp Area of Effect delay: 6 seconds

    So from this if i get it right the hitbox of his vine attack (m2) is 1,46 meters wide (the circles widness from which vines come from) and 0,6 second from 4m/s is (60%) 2,4 meters so in that time survivor can doge hitbox by 1 meter, its close call but he wont be damaged.

    Pyramidhead is I think more hard to hit because his punishment (m2 attack) travels slow and has 0,5 meters wide hitbox which can be doged quite easily even in narrow corridors or parts of the loops.

    Thing about clocks is that if they nerf it too much than he wont be that good and will be more like uknown aka harmless where when he gets clock and misses more he wont get anything from his power just two pointles m2 hits that started it and I fear this because I dont want to have another uknown situation on cool killer.

    Put downvotes here if you dislike facts held by basic math Idc.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,807
  • ImWinston
    ImWinston Member Posts: 777
    • No, maybe you didn't read that right. I'm saying to leave everything as is, just speed up the "clock process" for survivors, so his "guaranteed m2" timer isn't affected at all. Also, unlike any other killer, New Vecna ​​is the only one who pauses his m2 timer while hooking someone... so he can make his hook with complete peace of mind, without fear of wasting a single second of time. Let's just say it's clear that this is a licensed killer.🤣
  • Dark_Vorahk1
    Dark_Vorahk1 Member Posts: 133

    A deeply dull and problematic design. The only thing holding back the power is the skill of the player utilizing it. It's why Nurse and Hyperfocus have remained the strongest tools of each role; the user is generally not good enough to harness the power. I truly do not agree with the designed theoretical power level provided with the assumption that not too many people will come close to perfection.

    When I log on, it's because I want to enjoy Dead by Daylight. I would love to run, hide, take hits, and generally enjoy having autonomy over my movement and the ability to defend my teammates. This killer provides the thrill-less experience of Alucard's Shield at all times. Vault? Wrong answer. Maybe twice sometimes one. Didn't vault? Wrong answer. Maybe once sometimes twice.

    This takes my amounts of fun to impoverished levels. It's 10x worse with the infinite monologuing using the same recycled and effortless voice lines. When will we be able to disable that slop?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,721

    Wesker didn't drop really in so much as they fixed a few of his things like tunneling being extra strong, and since the loops have changed. We now have far more short loops where his power is effectively useless at.

  • cogsturning
    cogsturning Member Posts: 2,610

    Nah bro. I'm barely managing a 55% KR with him. Not everyone is instantly good with him.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,807

    He droped a lot and fact is he got nerfed like infection build up and infection rate was nerfed and fully infected survivor is now 4% hindered compare to old 8%.

    Weskers ability is nowdays easy to counter and same as on huntress people have learned how to play against him (when he is or was in top 5 most picked killers no wonder), wesker is just not as good as he was before and without expert and harder techs and golden egg addon he is b-tier.

  • random1543
    random1543 Member Posts: 454

    The survivors don't need to be able to knock First out of power using clocks, but the amount of guaranteed time it currently gives feels to long from the survivors perspective, that's why I think the clocks should take away more time but not drain it completely.

    This will reward good first players who are consistently getting shots as it will force survivors on the clocks more often, while still allowing survivors more chances to avoid going back into the clock mode.

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited February 9

    I was just telling someone the same thing for Demo regarding the short loops. I just want a long filler to shred survivors...

  • azaxydbd
    azaxydbd Member Posts: 159

    seems like ur doing well then, u talk like 55% is bad, what do u want 80%? if u had 80% then what about the top players? 500000%?

  • cogsturning
    cogsturning Member Posts: 2,610

    60% is fine with me but if I was up against the top survivor teams exclusively it would be like 5%

  • azaxydbd
    azaxydbd Member Posts: 159

    55% is good result buddy, improve a bit and u will see much higher stats.

  • ControllerFeedback
    ControllerFeedback Member Posts: 603
    edited February 9

    It's really annoying honestly. And it goes beyond map design, though that is a huge part of it.

    Houndmaster is basically the direct upgrade to Wesker if you think about it. Faster windup (also safer, since you effectively get to be in 2 places at once), much, much lower cooldown (and no "oop you started charging your power 0.1 seconds before your 2nd charge came back, too bad, better cancel and be slowed idiot" annoyance), the dog curves around objects and completely shuts down vaults (where half the time Wesker just gets to bounce off, get no vault, and get no damage), and that's just considering the chase command function of the dog, that's not even considering the search mobility, the killer instinct shenanigans, the macro utility with dog holds, etc. Like the difference in their skill ceiling to actual value ratios is wild. It takes barely any effort to play Houndmaster effectively to get similar results to an Alran-level Wesker.

    E: the only reasons you probably don't see her as often are because she still is plagued by the dog getting stuck bugs and the whole "I can just camp the pallet and stun the dog" thing. The latter can be played around pretty easily, but the former is rage inducing.

    And it's not that I even want Wesker to be buffed or anything (some QoL stuff would be nice, like the aforementioned charge thing), it's just kind of absurd how powercrept he and a lot of the older killers are these days.

    Post edited by ControllerFeedback on
  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,450

    No. His attacks are pretty simple to dodge, they give you warning before it happens. I barely see Henry. I think all together ive versed him 6 times so far. I play him more than i see him as a survivor.

    His clock is easy to counter, doesnt take that long and can be done by 1 survivor. Take that away from him and he becomes useless.

    if you miss 2 of your vine attacks, survivor usually gets so much distance on you. you have to slowly catch up as 4.4 killer. His undergate attack slows him down for multiple seconds giving survivor plenty of distance. Don't run straight lines, have walls between if possible and you should do fine. If you run straight and camp pallets yeah you are going to go down.

  • TheGoon224
    TheGoon224 Member Posts: 464

    honestly I think the real problem with exhaustion is that there is no proper balance for them. On one hand you have your Blights, Ghouls, And Billys who could care less about a sprint burst or dead hard, but for killers like trapper, ghostface, and literally any m1 killer without mobility its a death sentence.

  • 100PercentBPMain
    100PercentBPMain Member Posts: 3,148

    I think he's alright.

    I don't agree with pickups pausing worldbreaker, though.

  • 100PercentBPMain
    100PercentBPMain Member Posts: 3,148

    alucards shield is a fun useless meme addon that adds spice to life, what did that sddon ever do to anybody?