2v8 Legion and Hand Holding Game Design.
I really miss legion in 2v8, as it was literally the perfect game mode for them. All the fun parts about legion, comboing hits, building speed, stabbing quickly, just entirely amplified. And now they're probably not coming back. But here's the part that confuses me: Legion is weaker in 2v8 than 1v4. Lemme explain why.
There's very simple counter-play to legion. This number one, biggest, middle finger to the face strategy: Body-blocking with deep wounds. That's literally all you have to do. Stick with your non mending buddies, stand in a door way, Legion loses. Because Legion is not a strong killer at all. I can understand the annoyance, but the time put in to deep wounding all survivors, then potentially getting a down, is like one massive chase. Yes, you do pester the survivors for a little bit, force them off gens. But by the time you're on your 5th hit that time is already gained back.
But overall my problem is more so this shift of making the game have as little friction as possible instead of forcing the playerbase to get better. Dbd is a billion times more fun when you get an evenly matched sweat lobby and keep up. But even outside of a sweat lobby, there needs to be a challenge. Scott Jund said it best "It's like turning on god mode in Skyrim and killing everything". There's just no point to playing the game after that.
And I just fear that bhvr is going to keep making changes like this, and retroactively condition people to complain really loudly to get changes they want rather than ones we need. Because what this really stems from is the mindset I see a lot when I play killer. I'm going to say survivor mains, but stick with me, I mostly play killer so I mainly interact with this than I do killers who only get wins when they tunnel and the team throws the match trying to save the tunneled person too hard.
Every dc, every complaint, every "I'm not doing this" all comes from the deeper mindset of a coddled player. They play bad, they don't want to improve, they just point the finger and say "See? This is why x is y". The killer gets blamed for the majority of survivor mistakes. The amount of times I've had a deathhook survivor BT block for their healthy, 0 hook friend, then complain that I "tunneled" them afterwards is literally uncountable. I've played for years and that has never changed.
So basically what I'm saying is this: How much are we going to inevitably lose because it's too hard to some people? Every tech, every new change, every new killer power, how much of it are we going to get rid of until the game isn't fun anymore? If this keeps up, a lot.
Comments
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This is completely ignoring the fact that there are 2 killers in this mode (one which greatly benefits from injured people) and the fact that as a result of their power. You are being chased far less than normal.
Yes, Legion on their own isn't the issue. But nobody wants to play an amplified mend simulator because that's what Legion was best at. Keeping everyone injured for their teammate. Which meant you weren't chasing individual survivors for very long.
It sucks we lost Legion. But if we included them again, I'd frankly rather they have a different kit exclusive to 2v8, like a disguise killer as shown in their trailer. As while a 1v4 disguise killer would suck, in 2v8 they'd be able to pass off as a survivor far more consistently due to the sheer number of survivors. Add a sice ability to help in chases and the devs would have a great way to test the reception to a disguise killer and how they'd work. (This will never happen though)
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I thought it was fun to bully the legions that tried to get me first lol. sure, my teammates give free hits after the fact but I'd still take that over easy win Oni.
if we can't have legion give us ghoul already. it's pretty wild to me that balance talks are illegal and how dare you even have a grievance with killer...hurry up and quit so we can take your spot in queue lol. that's great for morale, totally. Legion made the unfairness a bit tolerable.
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Honestly let's just test a version in a ptb without the mending, it may not change the fundamental issues with Legion in 2v8, but it might help enough that it's managable.
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I’ll explain my downvote because most people never do.
The flaw with your logic is that you’re trying to argue about the strength of Legion without considering that there’s another killer in 2v8 mode. Yes, Legion on their own has counter play, but you’re ignoring the fact that there another killer to deal with. Legion can get a ton of free hits very quickly with no skill whatsoever, keep people injured, and then other killer mops up.
I usually defend the killer side more than most on this forum, but having a killer that could injure so many survivors so quickly making it super easy for the other teammate to get quick downs was incredibly busted and unfun for the survivor side.I will also say that Legion in 1v4 mode are also super unfun. Not that they are strong, but just super annoying. Legion matches are almost always long, boring mending simulators that are not enjoyable at all even if I’m winning as survivor.
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Because didn't you know? Killers powers are not allowed to synergise or do well they have to be easy to predict with enough warning sounds and visual effects that even Stevie wonder could dodge it. 2v8 (and really DBD as a whole) is being geared towards the hyper casual.
Killer is too effective —> People Cry —> Killer Removed/Nurfed
Surv class/perk is too strong —> People Complain —> Nothing happens or we have to wait years first
Now they even have yellow vials that remove entire hook states, 2v8 is DBD for babies.
I mean DBD is a team game where most of its player base acts as if working together is a alien concept and when they lose because their teamwork is ass then they say its the killers fault for doing his objective, in any other game this would be a maddening concept that you would get mocked for but in DBD its actively set as the norm.
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I mean DBD is a team game where most of its player base acts as if working together is a alien concept and when they lose because their teamwork is ass then they say its the killers fault for doing his objective, in any other game this would be a maddening concept that you would get mocked for but in DBD its actively set as the norm.
THIS! THIS! THIS!!!!!!!
Imagine if players wanted to nerf the enemy team in Overwatch/League of Legends due to how bad their teammates are? People forget that one side relies on teamplay to win while the other side don't (Due the game core design).
DBD is ASSYMETRICAL. One of the sides RELIES on their teammates. If they are bad, you are going to lose or at least have a hard time. People healing against Legion? Too bad for you! Cleansing in Plague Fountain? Too bad! Giving free hits to Oni? Too bad! People need to stop asking to nerf the otherside (killers) and ask to have a better experience on their own side, with better MMR and more info for SoloQ.
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It was never about Legion's strength or unsuitability for 2V8. Of course I don't have access to BHVR's stats for the mode, but from my own (admittedly anecdotal) evidence, I can see that they actually under perform compared with other Killers.
No, Legion were never strong. Their popularity imbalance between the players on the Killer side who enjoy them and their unpopularity with a large number of vocal haters meant they were always likely to get more complaints than pretty much any other Killer. So people complained and they were removed. It's as simple as that and nothing much at all to do with balance. And it's nothing to do with Legion pushing Survivors away from 2V8 either, since Killer queue times are still exactly as long as they've always been.
I get it, they were a common pick. So I do sympathise with the people who were sick of seeing them in every other trial. I face a rotation of Weskers, Huntresses and Nemis and I'm fairly sick of seeing these guys, too. But there really isn't a lot of choice right now and very few Killers in 2V8 have both a relatively simple power and a low skill floor. 2V8 was a good place for players to dip their toe into the Killer side of things without the extra stress and pressure of having to go it alone. I bet a lot of 2V8 Legions were inexperienced Killers. But now these players have only Trapper or Wraith to choose from, since pretty much every other Killer in 2V8 takes considerable time to master (basically a throw pick for beginners) or costs real money (Ghostie).
I don't see how taking away choices from 2V8 is a healthy direction to be going in but here we are.
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Thing with Legion in 2v8 is that an actual duo between a Legion and an Oni or Nurse or something melts lobbies. I used to run Legion + Nurse duos with my brother frequently and it was disgusting. However on the flip side, getting paired with a Legion while playing Trapper or Ghost Face or something? Uuuuuuuuuuugh.
Legion in 2v8 was almost always either dead weight or breaking the trial depending on the pairing. Legion was absolutely EVERYWHERE, and it made some other killers miserable to play sometimes due to the likelihood of getting dropped with Legion. Also miserable for the survivors if the Legion got paired with a different killer like Oni.-1 -
I don't like Nurse and Blight. Sure they aren't so bad separately but together they both greatly benefit from both killers having near instant map traversal at all times. Remove Nurse and Blight the same as they did Legion.
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I think pretty much any duo with at least one top tier Killer will melt the lobby if they are half way decent. If I play 2V8 past 8 PM when all the KWFs are out in force, the Survivor experience is a pretty rough one.
It's true that when I did get matched with another support Killer as Legion, we did struggle quite a bit (Legion were balanced out in the mode by having no lethality of their own to bring to a Trial). But then I don't particularly care if I win or lose in 2V8. It's not a mode that anyone should take seriously at all, imo.
I wouldn't be opposed to certain pairing being forbidden, at least for Killers that duo queue. I'm a solo queue gamer and I never got paired with an Oni once, so it's possible that's happening on some level already. I'm willing to bet most complaints about the Legion + Oni pairings were actually more about the unfairness of having to face a KWF than with the pairing itself. But BHVR don't see a problem with SWFs knocking the game's balance out of whack in 1V4, so they're not going to care about it now that it happens on the Killer side too.
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I didn't mind Legion in 2v8. My normal experience was just that Legion interrupted a lot by running up, stabbing everyone, and running away so that you had to mend. It could be annoying, but that's what their power was. It wasn't especially deadly unless the other killer capitalized on it.
And I can also say from experience that if you're queueing up solo for killer, Legion didn't feel particularly powerful. It felt FUN, because you got to run fast and stab the maximum number of times. But nine times out of ten, your teammate was nowhere near you and not really trying to come with.
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