was removing the kaneki vault back intentional?
i just watched otzdarva’s stream on the PTB and he was testing to see if you can still revault the pallet after Kaneki leaps over and now it seems virtually impossible. you will take damage 100% of the time if you’re anywhere near kaneki when he’s vaulting, no matter the timing.
i thought the revault was intended for counterplay since the vault speed is way too fast for regular looping around the pallet.
can a dev/community manager please shed some light on this and confirm if it’s intended that you can’t revault or if this is a new bug in the ptb? thanks in advance!
Comments
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I don't think it ever was meant to be possible because it was not possible when he came out and was most likely early sign of the bug that later caused some survivors getting hit that were not even close to the pallet anymore.
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Yes, it's in the patch notes. It doesn't make sense that a survivor should be able to vault back because it makes the ability near-useless.
-5 -
Okay well then can they nerf him properly instead of wrist slaps?
If he was 110% it would be a lot better.
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it also doesn’t make sense why Kankei gets a free down just by leaping over a pallet at supersonic speed
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It's his ability and it's conditional:
- He has to be enraged
- The survivor has to drop the pallet right in front of him
- His power has to be off cooldown.
Even then, it usually results in a 50/50. Not exactly free imo.
In any case survivors shouldn't just be able to vault back. Because why ever would you ever use that part of his kit in that case. If it's too strong then it should be nerfed, they shouldn't keep an unintended interaction to bypass it.-16 -
This is not a new bug; this is a bug fix. We can confirm it's intended!
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This shouldn't be in the game. Kaneki jumping over pallets is a big problem that has no counterplay. When Kaneki jumps over a pallet, there's no time to get around it, he simply gets a guaranteed free hit, and all Kanekis do the same thing: wait for the pallet to drop, jump over it, and get a free hit. The only counterplay is to jump back over the pallet, and with this “bug fix,” that will no longer be possible. In other words, Kaneki will be an even more unbearable killer than he already is and will always have a free hit in both stages.
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If they're waiting for you to drop the pallet then just don't drop it. It's like huntress. Even if you go down anyway, it's a better outcome.
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Kaneki is 4.6 Huntress is 4.4
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there’s 2 VERY big differences between Ghoul and Huntress.
- Ghoul is 4.6 and Huntress is 4.4, meaning that it’s better to greed and fake the pallet drop because it will take her longer to catch back up to you while you’re looping back around. but Ghoul will just catch back up before you make it to the pallet.
- Ghoul suffers very little from canceling his leap charge up, you can tap the button as Ghoul for a fraction of a second and on the survivor pov it looks like you’re going to use power. which is something good Ghoul players already do to force the survivor into greeding the pallet and result in them getting hit. Huntress has a very clear and reasonable time to pull out her hatchet and put it away, giving the survivor a reward for successful greed and baiting the huntress to m2 at the pallet.
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Yes you have to adapt to the speed difference, but the counterplay is still the same.
It depends on the loop but even if greeding against kaneki results in you going down, thats still a better outcome than if you dropped the pallet and got hit anyway.
Whether or not it's still too strong is another debate but the fact of the matter is there is things you can do to reduce the impact of it.-18 -
leave ghoul alone my god he’s literally the new skull merchant they won’t stop the outrage until he’s completely dead and terrible
-22 -
he was already fine on the live game. all he needed was tweaks/rework to centipede and arguably Yamori’s mask. idk why they went ahead and buffed him while classifying it as a “bug fix.”
-11 -
Now that Ghoul got buffed looking forward seeing more of him and more matches with all my teammates immediately giving up or disconnecting
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Good god no, it is not "fine" for there to exist an inconsistent tech that completely ruins the point of part of a killer's power. The "revault tech" only did bad things to the gameplay with Ghoul.
Counterplay against him exists beyond an unfair bug that completely nullifies one of the aspects of his power.
-15 -
Then why wasnt this in the bug fix field? It seems like you guys are confused yourselves on what Ghoul is supposed to be
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Cant wait for them to upload a guide against ghoul since they bug fixed the only consistently counterplay against him.
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Because he is buggy as hell only toped by few killers like knight,twins but nothing compare to bugmaster.
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-1
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I can do it for you. When you see that he is going to raise his tentacles to vault the pallet, which is almost every time, you have two options depending on the loop. If the loop is kinda short, you can just loop around again and he won't catch up to you. If the loop is big and you will not have time to go around, you can just wait and see by his tentacles animation when he cancel it, which is very clear. He cannot hit instantly after canceling so you have time to drop the pallet, always works for me.
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Me as ghoul if you don't drop it: Cancels and m1 you.
It's a lose lose situation if you drop it he gets you if you don't he has fast cancel and attack recovery he can just get you still.
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Even Trickster got turned to 4.4 and he's arguably weaker in his rework form and he's definitely weaker then Ghoul.
Like Ghoul and Blights cost for there insane power mobility is going to be turned into 4.4 when there going to be tweaked in the future.
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This completely contradicts a statement made by Mandy about the counterplay barley a month ago about confusion about the counterplay, now the dev team seems confused about counterplay. what else is the revault referring too
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To be fair, neither of then are within the balancing team. (Both balrog and mandy(
They are both just in the middle between us and the game designers.
So they probably know as much as anyone you met outside.
It is a bit sad how we still have no clear communication or guide on how to counter ghoul.
(People can speculate all you want but the only offcial guideline we have was from mandy's comment which got bugfixed)
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Yeah not blaming them its just contradicting information about a killer that is extremely disliked on the survivor side is not cool. just baffling saying something is a counterplay only to have said counterplay removed as a "bug fix" the very next patch
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You are supposed to go down eventually.
It's not lose-lose. It's choosing between two outcomes where one is better than the other.-16 -
The outcomes is both death niether option even buys you more time your just going down because he has quick recoverys and is 4.6.
Maybe if he was 4.4 and had longer cool downs when canceling then we could buy some more time buy as of right now no.
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The difference in outcomes is the pallet being dropped and subsequently broken. As i've explained before, because the enraged vault is conditional, pallets are useful against ghoul as long as you drop it outside of those conditions. If you drop the pallet and go down to enraged vault, you wasted a pallet.
I wouldn't mind if they nerfed this aspect of his kit either by increasing cooldown or by reducing enraged vault speed. I don't think he should be 4.4m/s though, i think that would just make him a worse legion.-11 -
You are not supposed to outplay him, you are supposed to purchase the DLC for ez wins as him.
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i never really understood how or why kaneki or ghoul works like this.
sure he is a ghoul from the anime, but by that logic, why arent more killers just as, if not more powerful?.
why is ghoul that one killer who gets like multiple powers as his basekit-power?.
can anyone explain?, because im confused, playing as and against him never really clicked with me.0 -
He gets slowed so if its not loop with another safe thing around close or short type of loop where you can make it back it will work as you say.
Thing to fix it is when he pulls his ability and doesnt use his leaps and cancels his ability than he has longer slow cooldown.
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Just to let you know, am having many discussions around Kaneki at the moment - so as soon as I know what will happen with the revault, I will update!
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I still feel like Kaneki's vault should just be removed altogether.
Being able to vault back after the killer isn't really a good mechanic and I feel like if a killer is so strong that it's necessary to have that as counterplay then something is wrong/needs to change.
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For what reason would it be kept? Please explain because i don't see how that would make sense.
Completely agree with sizzlingmario4 ^-4 -
This will be horrid if changes go through and the ghoul is not nerfed in some meaningful way to compensate eg reducing his moment speed and cooldown like others had suggested or even just removing that part of ability seems to have agreement on both sides of debate in this forum going by upvotes.
Us on the forums are more tuned in but players who are more causal are straight up just going to think this killer is broken after trying to verse him if it goes to live.
I hope we get good news regarding this.8 -
Kaneki is faster and Kaneki even if you wait for him to cancel his power in stand off, he can just pull his power back in time to vault (on safe pallets) and now you just can't do anything against that.
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So it's not guaranteed down on safe pallets/windows. Kinda doesn't make sense for killer with free injury.
Just give him Legion level vault, so something happens, but it's unlikely to help with downing a survivor.
-5 -
It would be fine if it was vault like Legion, where vault back is basically free. It won't directly help with downing a survivor, but you can use it for better positioning when you destroy pallet.
And in terms of Ghoul, "Legion vault" would still feel better than getting stuck on pallet. Ghoul's current vault is kinda main thing I simply refuse to play against him.
Nice change would be so it works as Legion vault (you can revault) and he would be able to continue with his leaps after it. So he coult try to go around the loop and block a survivor, if survivor tried to hold W or go around loop. Ghouls want skill expression so here it is…
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As a Wesker main who suffered this re-vault crap since his release I'm happy that this is also being fixed for him and that all "re-vaulters" are getting screwed for abusing this bug/getting what they deserve.
Most of people knew this was a bug and still kept exploiting this against Wesker.
I do agree that something should be done about Ghoul's Enraged vault since his Enraged state is nothing special since he's basically in it the entire match.-5 -
The condition of enrage vault is being enraged which a average ghoul will be 95% of the time because getting a grab attack is brain dead easy because it's hit scan auto aim.
You expect us to use this when outside of these conditions yet as I have stated before that rarely happens. Currently the best options are either removing scamper on ghoul cause it's far to problematic or increasing cooldowns and lowering ghoul down to 4.4
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Helping with downing a survivor is it's core purpose. Repositioning on the other side of the pallet would be pointless, it would be better to just break it from the side you were already on. Making it so he would stay in his power also pointless because there's zero potential for a cut off if a survivor is already directly at the other side of the pallet.
-5 -
So you're saying that kaneki's are constantly enrage vaulting every pallet? Not in my experience or any gameplay i watch. It's around 0-3 times a match. Especially since the pallet density update, you end up having to break a lot of pallets as ghoul.
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so basically Ghoul is now back to the S tier category, this is really bad since his kit feels unfun to go against.
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Helping with downing a survivor is it's core purpose.
Why does he have free injury and also power to down? That doesn't make any sense…
I would change it to Legion vault and let him continue with dashes after it. So he can catch up on predrops and he can try to use power to bodyblock survivors around the loop (which is about the only thing he can show skill).
That's how you keep him a vault and create more skill expression.1 -
Because free injuries are useless if it doesn't convert into a down at some point. Whilst he can easily injure people, he still has to down you with a basic attack, and his cooldown means that he can't hit and run if survivors are spread out like they should be, so he has to chase people at some point. Enraged vault exists to pressure survivors into giving up safe resources earlier, so that he can start getting downs in a reasonable time frame.
Your suggestion makes no sense because if the survivor is already at the pallet after vaulting it, there is no cut off potential, they are already at the resource.-2 -
he still has to down you with a basic attack
Technically yes, but not really. He has power to get that hit easily.
Spirit also has to do it with M1, but she is not really weak for that, is she?Enraged vault exists to get free downs on top of free injury. There is no skill involved and now survivors can't even attempt to vault back, which actually needed more skill to do than Ghoul, because of timing.
they are already at the resource
Most survivors don't know to vault back and try to run, which I know as Legion main. Also even if he has Legion vault, Bamboozle would still work to help him counter windows.
Even if you need 0 skill tool to down survivors. There is absolutely not reason, why it should also hinder survivors. You can't run away and you can't vault back…
It's funny to claim "he has to basic attack to down", while also "he needs better vault to down survivors faster".
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Yes really. The 2s cooldown for cancelling kagune leap means that if a survivor is playing well, you are an m1 killer at loops. Spirit has no such cooldown, infact she retains a speed boost, she does not play like a basic killer at all.
You cannot apply your experience as Legion to Kaneki just because they can both vault a pallet. They work very differently. Survivors don't vault back against a legion because it wouldn't help them avoid the feral slash, legion can immediately turn around and hit them whilst they are vaulting.
The hinder is 50% for 0.5s, that's 1m of distance in total. At this point i think it only exists to give feedback to survivors that they were grabbed onto. Perhaps there is a better way of doing it but i digress.
This second quote is not something i said.-1 -
The 2s cooldown for cancelling kagune leap means that if a survivor is playing well
You mean 1,25 seconds? Which is probably lowest fatigue from all killers with fatigue?
For reference, Legion has 3 seconds. That's something where survivor has chance to reach some resource, you want to match that so your statement is correct? I would be fine with Ghoul if he has same fatigue as Legion, but he has way lower..Spirit has no such cooldown, infact she retains a speed boost, she does not play like a basic killer at all.
But it is basic attack… Just showing you, that basic attack means nothing here.
This second quote is not something i said.
Oh really? I thought that he needs it so he can down survivors in reasonable timeframe…
If he doesn't need it to down survivors, then he can have Legion's vault.1
