Skull Merchant - What's the deal?

zonkednb
zonkednb Member Posts: 45
edited February 25 in General Discussions

As a newer member of the community without having been present for the colourful history of balance in this game, Skull Merchant is a bit of an enigma for me. I'm still new by hours standards, but have played enough of the game to find the groove and start engaging with balance a bit more. I largely 'get' what the issue with some S-tiers are, and why some D-tiers are D-tiers, even if it doesn't apply 1:1 at my MMR.

Skull Merchant however…

I honestly can't tell if she's good or bad at this stage. Most content creators that mention her only do so in passing, mention she's fundamentally broken, talk about how people DC when they see her. Yet equally, she seems to rank low in tier lists, sometimes even getting her very own Skull Merchant tier. I can't tell if it's memes or not :(.

Reading up on her kit and nothing jumps out at me. I think the only grievance that I've understood is people don't like her design in general.

As I understand it, she was broken, then reworked and is now broken in a different way?

What is the actual issue with her? What would fix her?

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Comments

  • skwillexy
    skwillexy Member Posts: 37

    She once was reworked to be chase oriented with antiloop drones, however, entitled survivor mains refusing to learn counterplay got her nerfed into the state she is in now. She feels unplayable and BHVR doesnt seem to care sadly

  • skwillexy
    skwillexy Member Posts: 37

    Crouching/standing still to avoid drone beams, deactivating drones around the map to reduce map pressure, forcing an M1 to avoid drone injury

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45

    Honestly cements it, yeah. It does sound like she was lame in the beginning. Something about players optimising the fun out of a game. Sure, 1hr isn't optimal, but if it guarantees no loss condition might as well if you're not off to a flying start… Not that I agree with the behaviour, just recognising it's kind of inevitible.

    Would you say in hindsight, @skwillexy is correct? The sledgehammer-tier nerfing she got was largely unwarranted and based on player vibes than actual viability? I've actually never come across her in a game before. Guess that's why her reputation seems to straddle two camps; entirely forgotten and vehemently detested.

    Out of pure conversation, and a fixation I have on this mystery character everyone hates, what are the ideas for fixing her up? Or is it one of those cases where there'd likely be no way to feasibly make drone gameplay work without it beging set and forget value that's profoundly unfun?

    I think it's a good thing it's limited. Trying to imagine Springtrap with infinite kicks for example. His mobility absolutely could not exist with how easy it is to regress gens using it, especially using guitar strings add on and info/regression perks.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,726

    The sledgehammer nerfs she got were, I'd argue, misapplied because of the complaints. There were some real problems and to an extent they still exist, they just weren't related to her basic gameplay loop- which is what the nerfs were aimed at dismantling.

    Going back to her pre-nerf state, if you want to fix the few problems she has, you'd be looking at these problem areas:

    • Skull Merchant's power didn't and still doesn't provide enough information about how it works to survivors
    • Her ability to drop a drone at a loop and "force" survivors to run away is, while misunderstood in its intensity, still something she can do and it is hella boring whenever any killer can do that
    • This one's subjective on my part but I really don't understand why she has Deep Wound. If we're already in the neighbourhood might as well just get rid of that

    When you understand what her power does properly, in my opinion she honestly becomes pretty fun to play against - the positioning battle of dodging drones is really interactive and interesting to me - but you kinda have to go to outside sources to understand what happens, on what triggers, and for how long. There are a bunch of ways to address this though, it's not an unfixable problem- she just lacks the kind of tells the other killers have.
    As for dropping a drone at a loop, they are designed to be played around in loops so it's not as universal a tactic as it is on other killers, but the sort of cheap crappy filler loops you'll find are ones she can force you away from which is just kinda boring. They actually gestured towards fixing this by giving her a brief slowdown when placing a drone, but it wasn't particularly noticeable. A better set of nerfs might include a more noticeable slowdown, so if you do have to run away you at least get some good distance.

    These are ultimately relatively minor problems compared to some other killers, it must be said, but we may as well talk about them if she's gonna be a hot topic forever.

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45

    Aside: Your chosen pfp makes me trust your takes on this topic implicitly lmao.

    I mean, I think the proof is in the pudding. Even reading her kit, and how it used to be, didn't really give me any clue what the issue was and what kind of interactions could stem from it, let alone counterplay. I'll consider myself a case study on why you are correct.

    Sounds to me like your proposed ideas, with increasing the slowdown on deploying a drone, would work. The way I see it, you can't do it brainlessly anymore, because the slowdown will allow a survivor to leave loop and gain distance, but if you place the drone at the correct point, it'll force them to make distance in a direction of your choosing - make them play dead zones, burn resources or otherwise have the difficulty of their chase increased. There are other killers that do things like that now and people don't take issue. Clown comes to mind, and although very few people go to bat claiming Clown is fun, he doesn't seem to get the same level of hate.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,855
    edited February 25

    She just came into time where gen kicking perks were on top in strong regression like CoB or overcharge, eruption (the one that didnt just damaged the gen but made survivor unable to do any gen or some actions which lead to like -40 seconds of repair time), in that same time there were lot of gens close togeather which gave a lot of 3 gens (3 gens that are close togeather which makes them easy to deffend) and other key part to make this combination work was that gens didnt have any regression limit like now you can damage gen only 8 times and than you cant damage it (only exception is like ruin or maybe some other perks might not count like oppression effect on other gens), so many 3 gens with era of strong gen kickicg regression perks that stucked (having like prime versions of CoB,overcharge made gens regress faster than they do in 2v8) plus gens having no damage limit in nuber like today (8 times damage the gen and than you cant touch it as killer) in this time to this equasion came skull merchant, killer who had great area traps for deffending gens.

    First version of merchant was strong, second was ok c-tier killer (bit annoying for many but nothing crazy just good deffender due to her traps) but she had all these things I mentioned before to her advantage which made "chess merchant" games that took 30 minutes to even untill server ended like one hour even top comp teams had hard time with her and beat her but in like 54 minutes long match (almost one hour it took them to beat c-tier killer).

    If second version of merchant came as new killer in these days she would be c-tier at best maybe even lower but back than she just came into time era that buffed area controling killers like knight.

    Its survivor ptsd, they just played in times where she was annoying because of bad game situation and is still hated for it today so nothing crazy and everyone that disconnects against her I call a fool thats wasting everyones time because now she is just free escape if you dont sleep on chest and totems and do actual gens and dont go down in 15 seconds against m1 115% speed killer that cant do much with her drones on loops just is budget clow from Temu.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 12,673
    edited February 25

    Well, my friend, there isn't much for me to say that hasn't already been said. This whole thing with Skull Merchant basically boils down to a problematic release, which was fixed through a rework that did address pretty much everything that had to be addressed, and still fell victim to an unreasonable wave of hatred.

    It is very difficult to put it any other way, I'll say.

    One thing that I don't see being mentioned as often as it should was that we did get two design previews for what was supposed to be a next rework and they were genuinely awful. They basically removed her identity, replacing it with something else that had nothing to do with who Skull Merchant is. The community was very vocal about it, and thankfully it seems that feedback went through.

    With the way things currently are, she is, well, weak. Although, I personally consider her the most fun killer in the game. I even have her P100! If you like Skull Merchant it is easy to have fun with her, it just isn't easy to win games, or at least not as easy as it is with other killers.

  • ConsAnthroid
    ConsAnthroid Member Posts: 27

    She is one of the if not THE WORST killer in game.

    She does have one thing going for her: she has been changes so much that survivors genuinely have no idea what she can actually do so if you take time to master her you will have quite easy games.

    The thing is… at this point you can start mastering someone actually lethal and have much better results more consistently.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 12,673

    "she has been changes so much that survivors genuinely have no idea what she can actually do"

    Good point.

    Truthfully, a significant portion of her strength comes from this lack of understanding. The fact that she is a rare killer to encounter make this effect even more powerful.

    Not only many players don't know what she does, the ones who do often lack experience playing against her.

  • Terror_Misu
    Terror_Misu Member Posts: 226

    You give anti-loop drones as a reason entitled survivors wanted her nerf'd instead of Learning the counter play?

    OP, a new player to the game as stated, asks you to clarify the counter play to anti-loop drones

    Crouching/standing still. Deactivating drones. Forcing an M1 to… wow.

    Op, this is an example why you need to really weigh all the info you get from these forums. You will have survivor mains, even entitled ones. You will have killer mains doing the same thing. See example above.

    Just to be clear, all of his 'counter plays' will get the survivor killed. Hence… no real counter play. Not to say there wasn't any, but @skwillexy and I disagree. Like, full stop. Skull merchant of her release was hell, and I (showing another bias) refuse to add her to my roster. She's the only character I don't have in the game. Those games were hellish when trying to get friends into the game.

    Someone will likely say things I could have done, and that's cool. They're right. Etc.

  • skwillexy
    skwillexy Member Posts: 37

    "im not a survivor main, I play both roles" ahh moment

    no but for real, this is the dumbest take I have ever read. literally all of the examples + W keying were ways to counter her. what counter would you suggest against artist crows or clown bottles? W keying? you take a hit

    What about nurse and blight mobility? pallets? doesnt work. w keying? you take a hit

    what about skull merchant? you counterplay her the way I described and MIGHT take a hit, but suddenly its a problem

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,726

    To clarify for anyone reading:

    Skull Merchant's drones have beams that need to pass over you in order to gain a stack, and don't scan crouching survivors. Immediately this makes the basic counterplay clear: watch the beams and position to block line of sight, then crouch/stand still as a beam passes over you when you can't do that.

    Additionally, it's relevant context what the stacks actually do, which is to say: almost nothing.
    Unless you're scanned within a few seconds of her deploying the drone or rotating the beam (in which case she gets a small Haste boost), the scans only build towards an injury and put you on her radar for a short duration. This makes some more of her counterplay slightly more clear: sometimes you take a scan and run away, such as if you have Lithe but the beam is about to hit the window. If you've only got zero to one stack, just take the beam and rocket away.

    Additionally to that, being injured via the drone is worse for you than being injured via basic attack, since the drone imparts Broken, puts you on her radar for longer, and leaves you susceptible to Hindered. This again reveals some more counterplay: sometimes you take an M1 to avoid the extra penalties, similar to forcing an M1 from Hillbilly.

    Finally, her drones are technically traps and sometimes get placed ahead of time, so you can disarm them for the next time a survivor is chased near that area. This, admittedly, isn't that important or impactful, at least in my opinion.

    The biggest problem Skull Merchant had and to a degree still has (even though it matters way less) is that it does kinda seem like she doesn't have counterplay if you don't know exactly how she works. Once you do, though, she very much does have counterplay, and good counterplay too- it's effective and, at least in my opinion, it's fun to do.

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45
    edited February 26

    I'm honestly surprised that this thread lead to conflict over killers vs survivors.

    Guess it's just a consequence of asymetrical games. A buff to one side is never going to feel great for the other, so resentment is just inevitible. Same with nerfs but opposite effect.

    Anyway, I learned a lot from the replies here. Thanks!

    I'll get SM one day for completion's sake, but she'll likely be among the last iri killers I get.

  • arithmetic_billiard
    arithmetic_billiard Member Posts: 5
    edited February 26

    I remember how her drones used to work through ceilings. So you as a survivor could repair a generator on the second floor while the drone is located on the first floor. This was incredibly painful to deal with combined with her undetectability, surge and exposed.

    It was impossible to win against her in Saloon and Midwich.

    But now? She's the worst killer in the game. Her power is mostly bugged and so does her perks as well.

    I never saw her again after the nerfs. Hate so say it but she's rarer than Twins since I at least faced Twins once this year.

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45

    Sounds to me like this was just a required bugfix and not the intended power of the character.

    Still BS though, would certainly feed the hate.

  • They haven't done anything until the rework even though the topic about it was non-stop mentioned. The devs just looked away while, I think, a year has passed? I can't remember exactly how long it took before they reworked her but I know it took a very, very long time.

  • arithmetic_billiard
    arithmetic_billiard Member Posts: 5
    edited February 26

    I think dbd fell apart when Portrait of a Murder released. After that, everything has gone to Hell. Maybe at chapter 21.5 when circle of healing was meta but portrait truly put the nail in the coffin.

  • Dark_Vorahk1
    Dark_Vorahk1 Member Posts: 139

    She has the equivalent reputation of Meg from Family Guy. She's never really done anything wrong and is actually fun if you get to know her. But for some reason it was popular to hate and bully her.

    She's been changed nearly 10 times now and her most recent nerfs have finally killed her. But some of her earlier iterations aren't recognizable from the current version. Double beams, multi floor drone fields, battery recharging claw traps, claw traps applying a pallet break, survivors being alerted to her gaze, having to manually wait to disable a claw trap or drone... for awhile she was the gift that kept on giving. Every patch made her feel fresh.

    But the issue was never the strength of her kit. Oddly, she was blamed for perks that didn't even release with her. And many basekit changes that currently exist would have shut down whatever imagined strategy players believed was exclusive to her (it wasn't.)

    So now we are stuck with a shell of a character. Her drones on make a single beam, easier to dodge than ever, with numerous bugs, and now only gains Undetectable if she destroys her own traps. She really is in a pathetic state right now. I'd give anything to revert her most recent nerfs.

    Like many Skull Merchant players, I am incredibly anxiously awaiting her next rework. I hope it preserves her dual identity as a trap setter/stealth killer. But I can already foresee the community lashing out. Never because it was a problematic change, but because Skull Merchant was mentioned.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 12,673

    I am dreading it, tbh.

    After so many bad experiences with reworks, I fear her next one, if it even happens, may turn out worse than we think.

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45

    Until it happens, no way of knowing. BHVR have hit enough to make a game we all put this much time and passion into, so there is a non-zero chance they actually make her fun to play without being busted. A tech-based killer can work. We have Singularity, who isn't entirely awful?

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 12,673

    Good point, friend.

    It is just a bit difficult to have such hope after so many disappointments.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,631

    Look at it this way, if they do a good job you get a pleasant surprise and if they don't you get to say "I was right".

  • AcesurvmainP100
    AcesurvmainP100 Member Posts: 19
    edited February 26
    Post edited by AcesurvmainP100 on
  • Dark_Vorahk1
    Dark_Vorahk1 Member Posts: 139

    The difference is regardless of how well Skull Merchant uses her power it is without exaggeration impossible to injure a survivor without them explicitly allowing you to do so. The fact that you hold that obtusely incorrect opinion is what got her nerfed.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 12,673

    Being able to say "I was right" doesn't really feel good, my dear friends. It never really has.

  • TWS001
    TWS001 Member Posts: 406

    I just remember that it was Christmas a month or so before she released and it was a miserable period. The Knight had just released and with the gen kick meta of COB, Overcharge and Eruption, games were already lasting forever. Servers in Europe were a complete mess. One of them was broken the whole 2 week plus holiday period, so if you loaded into it, the game was basically unplayable. So most games were either everyone rubber banding around the map or getting down to the last gen and spending forever trying to do it before everyone eventually dying after spending endless time unable to do anything due to Eruption.

    The Skull Merchant came in the January and could do what Knight could do but 10 times worse. Games lasted 45 minutes at least against her, and people began to just quit at the sound of her terror radius. This was before bots and the HUD changes so it was impossible. They would literally never leave the area of the best 3 gen. Then there was that video of a match between the worlds best survivor team and someone that had barely ever played Skull Merchant............

    They kept changing her and eventually nerfed her into dust because no matter what they did, survivors would just quit making it impossible to have a proper game.

  • zonkednb
    zonkednb Member Posts: 45
    edited February 27

    I feel you. I have a few thousand hours in other games where balance and nerfs/buffs were consistently bad for the health of the game, and I am not going to lie, it definitely makes one jaded.

    But, see me for the spritely, bright-eyed newcomer that I am, all full of whimsy or whatever. I've not had to experience the rough patches for DBD specifically, I can only read about them. Looking at old footage regarding earlier DBD, and reading about how the game used to play, the game has overall improved massively. I don't think anyone could argue against that. It says to me that, in general, we should expect changes to tend towards healthy for the game, even if imperfect.

    Maybe that's head in the sand, sure, but it's nicer. And if I get to say I was right, then you get a rad new Merchant to terrorise some poor mooks with :D

    Post edited by zonkednb on