15s Endurance in the endgame is very stupid.
Comments
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I want to assume that people saying that if the survivors were alive after 5 gens pop then that means the killer did badly and they dont deserve the "pity kill" are also the same people who would agree to remove hatch entirely and the gates powering up after it is closed (they should only power up with all gens completed).
The hatch and the doors powering up with gens still uncompleted gives survivors the oportunity of a pity escape. If all the survivors but one were dead before the 5 gens got completed that means the survivors did badly and they dont deserve their pity escape at all.
If you want to escape, keep playing and try as hard as you can to complete the last gens, open the gate and escape.
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Absolutely. Hatch in general is a miserable way to try and make a game 'interesting'. I've never went 'Omg hatch spawned!" and my blood pressure went up. Hatch is ancient and personally idc if it goes or stays.
Gates powering on hatch close? Remove hatch, remove this issue. But this would be a BHVR decision, not 'those same people.' Bhvr issue, not players.
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"Remove hatch, remove this issue," but then what are you left with? A game that's already lost well before it's over. And we have enough Survivors giving up early as it is. Do you want to make that issue worse?
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tbh if the gens finish and I'm not on a mobility killer I generally just head to the basement. there's no point in even trying to catch survs at endgame in that situation, you'll just get teabagged at the gate.
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So i 100% agree that this 15 second endurance is insanly unfair in the end game and I have made a similar post to this myself when the basekit BT first came about. Like you i was met with a lot of people saying that im just entitled and a crybaby killer.
I've read thru the comments on this thread and its quite laughable how extream each side goes. Killers say its an unwinable situation and that survivors sweat for the 4 out. Survivor say end game is killer sided and any end game hook shuold be a trade at least. What i feel a lot of people overlook is the situations that the 15 second endurance becomes unfair. So lets break that down when the endurance is fair and when it is not. Now before i get into it full disclosure. I'm a killer main thru and thru. I have played survivor a little but 90% of my time is spent as killer. Desite this my thoughts on this are objective and look at both sides of the game not just from the side of the killer
2 survivors left - Completely fair to have endurance. Rescuing someone on hook on your own in end game is certain death. Either you don't get the unhook or its a straight trade and most of the time the killer will then try for the 4k because why not so in this situation i feel like the endurance is 100% fair for the survivor3 survivors left - Semi fair to have endurance. Its a much easier rescue if 3 are alive as it shouldn't be a trade however likely hood is everyone will be injured meaning killer has a good chance of getting someone down. Allowing endurance to take 1 body block hit i feel is fair here
4 survivors left - Unfair to have endurance - The reasoning behind this is there are 3 survivors who can rescue. chances are you within running distance of a gate and most of the time that gate is open. This means 2 survivors tag team the rescue with the last survivor there to take a body block hit. Having endurance after this is just insane and results in a completely free escape
So given the 3 scenarios of end game rescue this is what I personally would love to see
During end game the standard 15 second endurance should be scrapped and replaced with a new type of endurance that is based on the amount of survivors alive at the time (alive and not slugged)
Base kit of 5 seconds of endurance and for every other survivor not in the trial 5 seconds of endurance should be added.- 2 survivors left will default 15 seconds
- 3 survivors left will default 10 seconds
- 4 survivors left will default 5 seconds of endurance
I feel this would allow an endurance hit straight of hook so its not completely unfair after an unhook else killers would just let the unhook happen and hit off hook but at the same time would require survivors to actually work for the escape by taking hits instead of relying on endurance to give them the escape. I feel this is the fairest way to handle endurance in end game as to not make it free for the survivor or make it free for the killer by just removing endurance completely
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You're saying "survivors," plural, but it's "survivor," singular. If the hatch spawns there's one survivor left. The killer has already won the match. The hatch is probably the only thing keeping already frustrated players from DCing or abandoning a lot of matches.
The killer has all the advantages with hatch. Even the slowest killers can move around faster than a survivor, who will probably sneak about even slower than usual. The killer also gets to decide if hatch will even spawn, since many slug for the 4k. It's impossible for a single survivor to do multiple gens by themselves with the killer having nothing to do but look for that one person.
Saying someone played badly because they're randomly assigned team died is unfair, especially with the amount of sandbagging in this game. Survivors are four individual people who aren't all of the same skill level. The last one left is often the best in my killer matches because I'm not gonna waste a whole bunch of time chasing a juicer. They can have the hatch if they find it first.
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Yeah removing hatch would be an insanely bad move. Like game already sucks for majority of survivors, and without hatch survs have no reaso to bother staying in the game once it's obvious killer will win.
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There are many differences between hatch and the end game being discussed, a few that have already been covered, but to add onto those
-Hatch exists to make up for a flawed structure in the game format. It exists for killers as much as survivors, because very few players want the hour long scenarios.
-Hatch isn't guaranteed and no one is saying the final survivor should always get it. No one is saying killers can't get kills in end game, @cogsturning has talked about this at length. The argument is over how easy it is should be for the killer.
-BHVR put in a unique MMR category for hatch escapes, a draw. That doesn't exist for end game kills, they count just the same.
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Anti-tunnel perks (Will To Live/Off The Record) are disabled in the end game. The built-in anti-camp mechanic is also disabled in the end game. Considering these facts, the end-game is already killer favoured. If survivors are able to pull off a rescue in the end game with all these odds stacked against them, then so be it in my opinion.
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Ngl this is a pretty good suggestion. Much changing the post hook endurance timer depending on the number of survivors alive seems pretty balanced. And 5 secs at 4 alive gives the killer a solid but not unfair chance to secure a kill.
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So in other words, the anti-tunnel would only activate AFTER tunnelling has already happened.
Brilliant. What a deterrent.
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Exactly. And the usual case is that Killers go for Hooks after they tunneled one Survivor out. Because at this point it is just BP-Farming for them.
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On one hand, it's a valid point, but the OP's complaint is specifically about the endgame. Would Jay_K's idea be acceptable if it only applied in endgame?
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It would be more acceptable in Endgame. But then we are at the point where we have to ask why Survivors should be punished for playing well.
IMO it would be better if it would be somehow tied to unique Hooks the Killer has. I think it is more justified if a Killer who has 6+ Hooks in Endgame and did not tunnel gets an advantage in Endgame compared to the Killer who has 1 Hook before reaching Endgame, because they tried to tunnel.
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Survivors are already punished for playing well, so I don't think this would change that.
On the other hand, I could also see how this would lead to asking how many more comeback mechanics Killers need.
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Still not really, since it'd reward tunnelling by giving better odds at an endgame kill. As Aven says, it'd be better if it scaled down with hooks.
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A big problem is people trying to approach the argument from the concept of 'fairness'.
Take the idea that it would be fair for survivors to get 15 seconds of endurance if there are only two remaining.
Except turning a situation where one survivor is alive and one on hook into both escaping is extremely unlikely. At best, the survivor coming in for a rescue is going to trade. Or, in other words, if you boil the game down just to just this single scenario, it's unfair, far more unfair than the 4 survivors alive for the killer scenario.
But if survivors suggested that if there were only two survivors alive the game should make an 8m zone around the hook that the killer couldn't enter to create a 'fair' scenario for both sides, killers would rightly jump all over the idea.
Basically: "fairness" can't be discussed without taking the entire game into account.
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Yeah, there is no fairness in this game, is there? Either that, or the people who claim to want fairness actually don't. Does anyone even know what "fairness" is in this game?
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What has tunneling got to do with anything. the OP stated ENDGAME only not the entire game. During the game 15 second endurance is fine nothing wrong with it. The main issue is you hook a survivor in end game, they get unhooked and they have invincibilty frames long enough to just escape. A unhook in endgame should still carry risks. You have taken what ive said and looked at it from a purely hatred of killer point of view.
How on earth does this reward tunneling? A killer who has to hardcore tunnel in a game won't be able to get a kill in end game anyway as they usually suck at outplaying survivors and if they are that good it won't even get to end game. Also my idea means less survivors left = more endurance. This means a killer who tunnels out actually gets punished more in end game rather than one that doesnt. Really what my idea shows is im saying give survivors a BUFF in endgame if there are already dead survivors. meaning a buff to survivors if a killer tunnels.
I like the idea of linking it to hooks but it means behaviour has to 100% define what tunnling is and that will not be what the larger communty sais it is.
As a killer you can hook survivor 1, hook survivor 2, then re-hook survivor 1 because they decided to get in the way or do something dumb and your called a tunneler. Or survivors will aggressivly use there basekit BT for a hit then cry because you had no choice but to hit them and at that point why not take the kill. That aint tunneling thats the survivor being an idiot. Again really like the idea of reducing the endurance time based on unique hooks (maybe 1 second less for each unique hook meaning worse case 2 people left is 5 seconds) but then you will just get complaints that this is unfair as killers will, and i quote an actual team i went against, Tunnel the entire team.-1 -
I think 'fairness' is a bad way to approach the game, especially given the obvious fact that the game is structured on a 60/40 split and isn't even designed around being 'fair'
A better approach is why something is or is not enjoyable, why it leads to good or bad games. As an example, neither Blight or Nurse are really that 'fair' for the survivors given their strength levels, but Nurse gets a lot more complaints because she's a lot less fun to go against and breaks elements of the game. Outlining why something specifically doesn't work is a lot more clear.
And 15s endurance definitely can for the killer feel like 'well, what do I do now, this is pointless?' Except:
1: People have pointed out lots of things that the killer could still be doing
2: At the extreme, its inevitable. A survivor saying something like 'I'm on death hook, downed under a hook, and no one is around, what do I do?', well, you die. That's kind of the scenario here - survivors are all healthy and/or have endurance and are at the exit gate? Okay, gg.
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Really what my idea shows is im saying give survivors a BUFF in endgame if there are already dead survivors.
How is it a buff if the max you want is 15s and it's already 15s?
You're saying you play 90% killer and you're being objective while also calling everyone who thinks the current state is fine a survivor and everyone who doesn't a killer, so you’re just projecting you're own biases onto the other responses. Some people play both roles.
You're talking about fairness but there's no such thing in this game. Killers can camp and tunnel all match. They can slug multiple people in end game in quick succession. A botched save can land a killer, especially a ranged one, multiple downs as is. We're gonna have to change the whole game if we want it to be fair, and that will never happen because even something as minor as an extra 5s of BT is a problem.
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