http://dbd.game/killswitch
BHVR, could you clarify your stance on the Ghoul’s re-vault mechanic?
Is this intended behavior?
Comments
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I hope it's not intentional or else he is officially just another M1 killer.
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lol.
He clearly isnt. Not getting cheap scamper-like Hits does not make a Killer suddenly an M1-Killer. M1-Killer clearly has become a buzzword at this point.
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but factually tough he is an m1 vs injured survivors by definition after this change . He does not have an m2 damaging state and will always have to m1 for a down .
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I think M1 is a term that is being used to broadly in general.
Ghoul still has map mobility and cut off potential, he still gets gets his first hit free as a hit scan attack
an example of M1 killer in my head are killers like Trapper and Ghost face both have powers that are avoidable and situational leading to them relying on m1s for both hits in a lot of cases. edit: along with no map mobility
Then we have examples like pinhead, Sure he has to M1 to down people, but his power is more complex then the above mentioned.
Plague is another one that I see get called a m1 killer but that's based on if survivors cleanse and she has apple and iridescent seal to not be a m1 killer.
Then we have killer examples like Vecna, He can technically be a M1 killer because he has to hit you to do damage unless hes hitting every hit with the skulls.
I just think most of the killer roster would be "m1 killers" if the definition is so broad ghoul is being included.8 -
Nurse does also not have any way to damage with an M2. You cannot say that just because a Killer has to click M1 that it is an M1-Killer.
A M1-Killer typically cannot traverse the full map in seconds. Or a M1-Killer cannot be on you after seconds and cut you off after they put you into the injured state (or mending state).
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Where would you put Freddy? I've always considered him an M1 killer, despite his map traversal and anti-loop power, so just curious
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I would say he is clearly an M1-Killer. But the line can blurry at some point. I think it is important to consider how often a Killer can injure with the M2 and how useful the M1 is in a chase. And if we look at Freddys chase power, then it is not really different than Clown and nobody would say that Clown is not an M1-Killer.
Freddys only way to damage without using M1 are the Dream Pallets, but I would not really consider this something which would not make him a M1-Killer, because the amount of times you actually remove a Health State with those is pretty low.
The map traversal also does not really help him in chase. Sure, you can cut people off, but I think it is way more efficient to do that as Ghoul.
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Yup, I would agree. His dream pallets could technically classify him as an M2 killer, but they're way too situational and I consider them more of an anti-loop mechanic since they drive survivors away from tiles moreso than anything else. There's definitely alot of blurred lines, and considering how often people in the community argue over M1 killers (often said like it's a dirty word) it's interesting how M1 classification differs among players.
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To answer ur question. Yes they are making it a intended feature. Idk why but it is now apart of the Ghouls kit.
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If you're relying soley on vaulting to get hits then you weren't exactly very good with Ghoul to begin with. He excels at mobility. Catching up quickly, cutting off survivors, and taking unexpected angels. That was the intention of his power, not cheap vaulting hits.
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So is Spirit… She needs to also M1 to injure, so Spirit is more M1 killer than Ghoul.
So technically yes, but not really.
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Most of the people bringing up “Ghoul’s cut-off potential” have probably never actually body-blocked a loop themselves. It’s something they’ve either had happen to them once or just seen in clips. In reality, pulling that off consistently against experienced survivors is extremely difficult.
the whole “low skill, high reward” take doesn’t even line up. If Ghoul players are actually cutting survivors off in loops for downs. Most ghoul players relied on his vault for downs.
Now hes just another M1 killer. A lot of these takes just come from frustration rather than what actually happens in game.
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It is more reliable for ghoul to chase survivors and mind game in loops and m1 to secure downs then use his power now. He is a very obvious m1 killer now.
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Cut off potenital does not mean just body blocking.
Cutting of a surviour could be swining in front of them before they have time to get to a resource, if they are on a unsafe gen swinging towards recources so they have to run into you or into a dead zone.
it does not mean just the situations where he body blocks a pallet or window.
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I would even go as far and exclude map traversal powers completely. What matters is the tools to down a survivor (not injure bc cases like Legion).
So i agree with Freddy. You slow survivor down, but you kinda play the loop normally. Pinhead is also only slowdown. Clown, too. But what about speed Clown? I would say M1-killer. You could say Spirit has only a speed-up, but i wouldnt call her M1-killer.
Its very hard for me to find a clear definition.
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That has nothing to do with weather a killer is m1 or not. you can step on a trap and trapper can come and scoop you up. That doesnt make him a m2 killer. These killers have to play into the loop and mind game to secure downs. Ghoul is one of them now.
Killers like blight and nurse can reliably use there power to secure downs in loops. M1 killers cant do that.
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M1 attacks are what trigger jolt for example . No matter how ghoul down you it will always trigger jolt . M1 killers can actually have crazy map traversal . Singularity is a pure m1 killer who can teleport all over the map for example . Ghoul and legion are a hybrid where they have a m2 for the first hit but need to down with a m1 .
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spirit and singularity both can only m1 to down . They have mobility but all power hits count as an m1 . Legion and ghoul are a hibrid where they can m2 for the injure but always m1 for the down.
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They know this, they’re just bending the definition of an M1 killer to help justify the changes.
You’re probably gonna start seeing a bunch of “Ghoul is fine now” or “fun to play against” posts now that people can just exploit his pallet vault 😂
I’m gonna be patient though, because there’s no way Behaviour leaves him like this. People complain about a mid tier killer and the response is to nerf him? That doesn’t even make sense. It feels more like they’re testing or investigating something, because there’s no way that’s the final state.
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That's why I say technically yes, but when people talk about M1 killers, they really don't mean Spirit, or Ghoul.
When you see posts about M1 killers being weak, are Ghoul/Spirit/Singularity really first killers that come to your mind? He is just not in same category as Doctor, or Ghost face. Their chase is completely different compared to actual M1 killers.
Ghoul mains are saying claims like "just M1 killer against injured survivors", but in reality he is not even close to them.
This is simply an issue of outdated terminology. Ghoul downs with M1, but he is not "basic" killer.You have many killers that use M1 to down like Hag, or Deathslinger, but their chase has nothing to do with basic killers. So for them it's just 100% upside, because it enables them to use perks M2 killers can't.
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And now your in it, freddy has map wide mobility
A M1-Killer typically cannot traverse the full map in seconds. Or a M1-Killer cannot be on you after seconds and cut you off after they put you into the injured state (or mending state).only thing that saves your claim here is that freddy ability isnt realy that great for cutting up more like 1 in 100 cases you can use tp to cut survivor off but its nothing very reliable.
This calim here fights the legion being m1 because he can injure you to mending state and be on you in few seconds if he clearly targets you and cut you off (his cutting off isnt very good compare to ghoul but we cant say its nonexistend thing).
So your m1 deffinition fights sadako,wraith,legion,dreadge which are killers I would consider m1 killers even wraith because he has mobility and catch up but he cant do anything than m1 hit and his ability isnt that great compare to others and without certain addons basicaly sucks a lot (the faster reveal addons and breaking ones). That m1 killer conversation is just big trap because you add "but m1 has no catch up or high mobility or another way to reliable injure or put you in mending and catch up in seconds" but all these requirements basicaly fight the fact pig,clown,freddy,wraith,sadako,dreadge being m1 killers.
Ghoul is kinda more powerfull than "m1 killer" but he can only do what legion does and on top has blights mobility plus buffed wesker vault, we can argue but his main way to get downs a is m1 attack and his vault hit isnt reliable source of getting downs just like freddys dream pallets.
Its bit tricky what is m1 and what is not due to so huge variety and execution of each killer but I would say "m1 killer" is killer on weaker side even with some m2 attack that isnt very reliable (pig, kinda freddy) or mibility to travel across the map or catch up (sadako,dredge,wraith).
We can argue that dreadge is stronger or wraith than rest well i would argue that freddy is strongest m1 killer becuase he has slightly weaker clowns hinder and map wide tp mobility that is fast and very reliable and gets you directly to objective (something not many killers have and this gets you on top of gen every dam time unlike dreadges tp or springtraps door or xenos tunnel). Freddy is in my oppinion high b-tier but still m1.
How would you even place houndmaster? She has some mobility and chase power which is weaker slingers pull but has only m1 attack and dogs injure isnt that reliable nowdays I would say after her nerf.
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I would say spirit and larry has more versitality and reliability than legion, same with ghoul plus spirit isnt the normal consideret m1 speed of 4,6 m/s but they surely are m1 attack base killers because they cant damage in defferent way or down than with m1 attack (we can argue about ghouls attact thats special and puts into mending or legions becuase they have it, both of them but I would say thse are not reliable attacks that can down differently than m1).
Larry has greater untiloop than most m1 and great map traversal plus catch up directly to survivor, ghoul too has great antiloop plus mobility and cacth up.
I would say it comes all to that killers power and reliability like wraith power isnt that super great and only with best stuf laces him in b-tier or legion can injure with special attack but he sucks in everything else and has no options than frenzy and m1 (especialy m1) to gain downs, but this discussion what is and what isnt m1 killer isnt very realistic becuase there are many killers that have more than just m1 and almost every time there is some other killer who is verty simular to them just better (ghoul>legion) but I would say these weaker ones that rely on their m1 the most are these "m1 killer", on other way its pretty endless drag that has not much of a one simple outcome.
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deathslinger is another 110% killer who can only down with an m1 .
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y'all twisted my words.. kinda lol. what I meant is that in most cases now during a chase you're probably better off not using your power at all.. keep in mind I say this as a casual console player.. not a godlike hardcore tournament level pc player.. because i know that there are some Kaneki players out there who can pull of some crazy stuff (block you mid loop by power) but lets be honest what is the percentage of these guys?
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Thats one of many reasons that m1 killer argument falls down. He is like 110% legion with better antiloop.
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I think the point though is that, if they are going to make it 100% counterable in every situation without the option for counterplay on the killer's side, why even have the mechanic at all?
Survivors often get upset at mechanics on the killer side that "have no counter" like for example the "if they vault the window i shoot the thing, if they don't vault the window, i cancel it and m1" and as part of that many of these killers with special powers were nerfed so cancelling it was more punishing. Everyone generally agrees this is probably a good thing.
So why is it ok when a killer has a mechanic that can be countered in a way that has 0 counterplay, but when its happening to a survivor its a problem?
Another example i'd point out for example is wraith. Preventing wraith from breaking the pallet by just vaulting over and over is also something that probably shouldn't be able to happen, because it creates a scenario with no counterplay for the wraith other than doing the unoptimal thing of, spending time to unlcloak, then kick the pallet, then recloak. Which wastes so much time you might as well just abandon chase.
Bear in mind, i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about whether the mechanic should exist or not. Honestly i don't know, as i haven't played ghoul with the changes. I'd have to play ghoul testing with "not vaulting pallets" to see how it would work in practice or we'd have to do a PTB on it. But my point around the philosophy of the decision is more what i'm talking about here.
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Because they are totaly unpredictiable like when he droped it was part of his kit and now it isnt so its not unintended because if it was than it would been taken away year ago (or taklke about and mentioned just like hug techs on some killers like dracula,blight or as his kidnap tech) in many of his nerf patches and bug fixes.
Just like new patch there isnt any part of community that it would be aimed for like trickster rework just likes some of his mains, wesker got nerfed, new map that isnt that liked for its gen spread and holding W ability, ghouls nerf out of nowhere all thats missing is making pig 4,4 m/s and its pinickle state.
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keep in mind I say this as a casual console player
You answered your own question.
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