http://dbd.game/killswitch
Does an unbalanced match feel worse as Killer or Survivor?
Faced a wave of DC's lately, after a few matches that were clearly not fair. This isn't a statement on matchmaking as we have numerous threads about that already. Instead, I simply want to know the general consensus on which role's fun is more impacted by severe skill/knowledge disparity.
Does an unbalanced match feel worse as Killer or Survivor? 23 votes
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14 votes
9 votes
Comments
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Killer
I think it depends if you are on the loosing end of the unbalanced MMR.
But I lean Killer being worse feel only because the time spent in match, If the survivors are lower skill they are going to loose pretty quickly or everyone ends up giving up into abandon, if a killer is lower skill they have to wait for all the gens to be done and end game if survivors are rude and wont leave until the end.4 -
Killer
I think it's only fair I drop all pretenses.
This spells it out to be honest. I feel the only argument that could be made for survivor being rougher is very early on when you don't understand what killers do. Chases feel effectively impossible.
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Killer
Another factor is if you are playing a killer you main, you feel like you are failing to get better with that killer, or that the killer has reached its limmit in strength making you feel its weakness. As survivor you expect to lose, try to escape. As killer you naturally expect to win, try not to lose.
It especially hurts when you actualy finnish chases really fast and still the generators fly faster.
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Killer
Don't I know this. What's worse is I actually suck with my main, Spirit. So I gotta eat my ego for breakfast lunch and dinner every time I play.
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Killer
Well so far with my xeno its a 50% chance im eating fire all round or eating faces lol
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Killer
Killer, not even close.
A bad match as Survivor is whatever. Sometimes it can even be funny.
A bad match as Killer is just pure misery. Utterly wretched.
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Even though I don't like to talk about "feelings" - so, it's hard for me to answer this question.
Some will argue that losing as a killer is hurtful because you are going against four other people. You are 1v4 every single trial, you have to keep tempo to have map pressure (hence why slugging, tunneling, and gen regression is prevalent). You lose, most of the time it's misplays on what you did. Overextending, not checking your gens, eating a DS/Off The Record (if tunneling) and your time is "wasted" (even if I'd argue that you chose to do a risk play, you got a consequence). You choose to slug, you cannot calculate if this survivor has Unbreakable. You hook someone at the exit gate, they have Deliverance. You choose to not slug for the 4k, hook the third to last survivor, they get hatch = no 4k for you. So, yes killer is highly dependent on you and your own decision-making throughout the game (not to mention end game salt) that you get as a killer or the vitriol given.
Survivor is the same way: even if you are working as a unified unit (this is how I view survivor) - if you have a weak link on your team that dies in less than 30 seconds each time they're in chase, it feels like you're punching upwards as a survivor. Someone unhooks in front of the killer, goes down on the hook, and you have one person on the ground and still the hooked person is there - a moment in your head goes, "What happened?" as the other survivors watch a misplay the more than likely cost the entire game and you're not even involved in the situation at hand. Same thing for when survivors heal and they go down in succession, a lot of that is groaning moments and wondering what happened for that to occur. I can continue on, but you get the point that I'm making.
For the general community, I would say killer feels more unbalanced because you are working at a 1:4 ratio, you make decisions, you feel the immediate consequences of the actions you have chosen during the trial. I get more irritated from a survivor perspective as I main survivor, so obviously my answer would be biased as I see survivor misplay (on my end, I'm not allergic to misplays) and seeing other people committing mistakes that just gave the killer easy map pressure for zero reason.
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I didn't even see this text.
When I load in as survivor, I do not "expect to lose" even if you said try to escape afterwards.
Every single time I load into a game, I do not think to myself - "I am going into a game with a disadvantage at the start." I might groan at a No Mither, I might think to myself I could not sit there and play a game where I am one tap - even if arguably I will get off the hook, run to the other side of the map to double a gen with someone else, and expect to get healed after the gen pops.
I don't adhere to this whole survivor is horrible, you should expect to lose because you can't calculate for your teammates. Even if I view survivor as a unit, you have individual skill expression for the survivor role.
It is up to that person to want to do better, not come in with a defeatist attitude.
When I see Hive Mind, Ruin, etc - I go find the totem.
When I see Pain Resonance, Surge, Pop, etc - I work around it simply because I like to be gen efficient.
When I see aura reading and I see a killer come straight to me with BBQ, I take a mental note. Same for Lethal Pursuer, same for Nowhere To Hide, etc. To me, coming in with the idea that you as a survivor is helpless and it's so hard is regressive mentality. You should opt to do better if that is what you want to do - obviously my comment is not towards people with meme builds, I don't even play meta - I like to experiment with builds and use my experience each trial I load into. I would hope, even if the killer is using full meta the same mindset that I have.
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Killer
I never said survivor was horrible, i play it more often than killer. I just meant theres a much higher chance of dieing than escaping and you rely on a lot of rng factors, so i go into every survivor round knowing i am likely to lose, but can win (mostly play soloque). While killer feels like the game should run based on your skill and killer choice with a chance to not get kills. So i go into killer rounds feeling im more likely to win, but can lose.
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I see, I also am a person who mostly plays soloq and I still have that same mindset.
Sure, there are RNG factors - you cannot control every single thing in a match, you can't control where the gen spawns are, the skill level of your randoms, what tiles spawn, etc.
I just do not believe that survivors should have the mentality that we have a higher chance of dying. I just don't understand that, but to each their own. Even if you do die, you still contributed to the match.
Your death could have helped a gen pop, allowed a gate to be opened, etc. I guess I just view the game differently is all, best regards and I do not want you to feel as if I am judging you. ❤️
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Killer
Even though I don't like to talk about "feelings" - so, it's hard for me to answer this question.
I understand the hestitation to discuss feelings, because feelings gets us bad decisions. I also think that dismissing them outright is not the right way to go about things either. As logical as we all like to profess we are, human beings are emotional creatures. We play this game for the emotional responses it stirs in us, not because it is a productive activity. It's why I argue that balancing should not be strictly around hook rates, kill rates, or any other numerical perfomrance metric exclusively, but also address the impact this has on fun.
I think your full response is pretty well written. Especially the note regarding the immediate feedback of killer vs survivor. Losing badly as survivor gives you so many ways to not blame yourself, or not realise where you messed up. Killer puts your mistakes on blast every time you make one immediately. That makes one more visceral.1 -
I see, when I say I don't want to talk about feelings - I'm not trying to minimize or invalidate others.
However, a "feeling" is not something that every player experiences in this game. Like I say to my friend who is a killer main, says the game is survivor sided - on the same level say that survivors are brain dead.
There is a lot of sentiment and I've seen it when seeing what survivors write, killers write, and others who obviously know how to play the role they play and not adopt a negativity bias.
That's what I think a major issue in this game is: you get steamrolled, you think - alright, I'm going to slap on the worst build, I'm going to down this survivor, and I'm going to hump them or nod at them. It's the same toxicity you see on the survivor side because people do not know how to handle their own emotions, not take it out onto others the very next game they load into.
Just because you got juiced by an Ellen from last game doesn't mean the Meg that you've downed in x amount of time gets the BM, the humps, the head nods.
This is why I say I do not like to talk feelings, people have different experiences depending on the match-up type, how the game progresses, and have negativity bias.
A killer can go game after game with 2-3ks and then have a game where all the survivors leave or have a 3k, come here to vent, have a validation party, and never have the mentality challenged. Same thing for the survivor end, I just do not engage in this role makes me feel x and x. I just play the game, do the best I can, move onto the next game. I don't sit there and think, I'm gonna go put on my try hard build (I already play under the sentiment that I will do my best regardless and if I have a misplay - I sit there and analyze what I could have done better). I go into the next game, a killer isn't playing optimally - I do not shift gears, I might go cleanse totems or whatever it is, search a chest but I know deep down, if I was in a situation where the killer is dominating me, they will not shift gears and take it easy on me. - I hardly if ever see that on my end, just my 2 cents.
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Killer
Thats fair. I don't condone emotion as an excuse for lashing out in game. My head nods are exclusive to funny moments, such as getting chain pallet stunned multiple times and waving my mouse to show the survivor it's a rough time but I'm in good spirits, or maybe shaking my head at a killer that has me cornered edge-map and comedically begging for mercy. No salt if they don't give it.
I'm a 50/50 player. Which is sort of the source of this question. I can feel heated in both roles but it is a very different kind of heated, which made me curious about other perspectives. People that don't spread their playtime as much or at all will bring perspectives I haven't considered.
In general, when I see people come here after a bad match, obviously angry, they get shut down to a degree, because people are pushing back on this adversarial mindset between survivors and killers. I tend to join this, asking such players to explain specifically what was unfair to understand where they are coming from. I find general game frustration to be an unproductive critique as well. It's more interesting and beneficial to discuss what elements of the game resulted in such frustration and why that is. The game being fun is literally the only thing everyone sees as a goal, and having fun is a consequence of vibes, not logic.
Ghoul is a common one (just an example - please avoid making this a Ghoul thread despite my hypocrisy for bringing him up) to see discussed despite the numbers showing that they're middle of the pack in terms of power. I don't believe Ghoul is OP but for the health of the game, some review is needed there. I don't pretend to know the solution, just that one needs to be considered without Skulling his Merchant, if you catch my drift.
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Haha, you are fine.
I will not make it a Kaneki thread or whatever, I do feel there is counterplay and I do not DC against a Kaneki.
I still have my Kaneki fatigue, but I won't flat out say that the killer has no skill expression - I do think he has a low skill floor, but I won't derail the topic.
You and I are similar, even though I play survivor mainly - I still come here to share my thoughts, give advice to both killer and survivor, and try not to get into emotional spats. It's why I typically take months away from the forums, it sometimes feels as if I'm speaking a foreign language when I'm communicating with a survivor ^ as shown above or I'm too "analytical".
I come here to help, share my thoughts, give advice to people who are obviously struggling (whether killer main or survivor main) simply because I want people to enjoy the game without feeling as if they are completely devoid of decisions. The game suffers from giving the players the utility to do better - it is why content creators typically push the game forward, in my opinion.
People struggle with the game, look up content creators, copy them, still struggle, come to the conclusion x role sucks because I still struggled with y's advice and videos. This is an unpopular opinion for sure, but I do wish that the community would actively try to use different perks instead of parroting what content creators say.
I will edit and say that the head nods and humping does get on my nerves to an extent, however - I take it as you are wasting your time humping me and nodding at me as I look at the hud and see a gen popping, but again how I view the game is not the norm, lol.
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Killer
And i didnt mean to make it sound like a defeatist mindset, ive been plauing since the myers chapter and from experience the game is built so that the killer is supposed to kill everyone unless the survivors play perfectly or the killer makes too many mistakes. So ive died a lot more than escaped making the idea of escaping more of a prize rather than an inevitability just because i can loop.
What makes survivor feel much more casual for me is that i am not worried about winning due to the lower likelyhood of escaping. But i don't give up till the round is over, i even avoid clicking abandon when everyone gets slugged as ill even crawl to the other end of the map to hide n bleed out or sometimes even get hatch. Even recently crawled to the other side of the map while waiting to bleed out only for the killer to find me by the gate, still didnt abandon and he let me go out the door lol.
But the point of this vote is which one feels worse to get stomped in, and survivor its very common in solo que, while on killer you are usualy the one doing the stomping but getting stomped in the power role feels worse especially when its a specific playstyle killer you main and you realise just how weak that killer is in certain areas.
I jist mean with survivor im not worried about losing - by expecting it, not in a pessimistic way.
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I see, yes - I agreed with the sentiment that by community standards I agree killer "feels" more unbalanced simply for how the game is.
I've been playing since I think the Stranger Things chapter, I can't really remember as it was years ago and I got the game for PS Plus - so, 2022... I mean, I was here for old Haddonfield and the old Coldwind. Even then, all throughout my time as playing survivor I just don't come in with that sentiment.
When I first played, I watched people like Probzzz (I do not watch him anymore), Noob3, Naymeti, Yerv, etc. I have also watched killer mains (Otz, Hens, Scott - to some extent) - I do not really watch them now and if I do choose someone to watch, I'd watch Cru5h if anything. However, the point I'm making was that even though I am critiquing people for copy/paste - monkey see, monkey do behavior. I will admit that I used them as a template to know gen spawns, T&L walls, strong tiles v. 50/50s. These are things I learned and got ingrained into me because I practically watched these content creators religiously, then I moved to comp players, but now I don't really indulge in it anymore because I don't need it.
I had the training wheels when I first played by watching people, I still use builds that Probzzz has videos on (Iron Will, Light-Footed). However, because I chose to go out of my way to basically educate myself I do not agree with the sentiment. Even if I die, I know I put in contribution for my team to potentially survive and get out. I do a lot of things that I'd argue a lot of the content creators I used to watch do not do, but that's because I learn what works for me and apply it - hence the belief that I think survivors should operate on a - "How can I make this killer waste their time?" / "What can I do to help my team?" / "Sable is being tunneled, what should I do?" / "I unhooked Sable, killer is coming back, what should I do?" - people think survivor gameplay is simplistic and function on a, "Well, I'm gonna die anyways so who cares?" - I do not think that way. If I die and the last gen pops, I feel like I won.
If I die getting the exit gate over halfway done, I won. - my team will get out regardless.
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Killer
Yeah, I think we are. I'm someone that likes to consider every emotion valid, but vitriol is something I feel is entirely unproductive. Being angry is a natural response, but what we do with that response is where we separate good & bad (referring to choice, not an entire person).
I'm fairly recent to the forums. I'm actually a relative newcomer to the game outright, having first played in 2022, dropped the game, and came back due to long-term sickness that kept me off work. Boredom got me to try the game again, boredom got me to invest hours enough to feel confident enough to chat with a community that - outside-looking-in - is very intimidating to default Megs or baby Wraiths.
I think my focus on the emotional aspects of the game comes from me seeing it as the true source for a majority of complaints/discourse I see online. Sometimes there is objective truth behind the emotional response, sometimes there isn't, but the outcome is equivalent.0 -
Survivor
I totally understand why people would disagree with me, but…
Losing big as Survivor is worse. So often, it feels like you can't even DO anything. The killer happened to bring an Iri addon and you can't communicate the Hex's location because you're in solo queue and UGGGGGHHHHHH
At least if I face a 4-man bully squad, it requires actual skill to loop for 5 gens, body-block accurately, etc. I'd much rather lose to what I perceive as a "better team" than to what feels like a poorly-designed map or offering or whatever.
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Yes, so for sure - we started more than likely around the same time.
I started in 2022, I was consistently playing (currently 4.1k hours) but I go through periods where I don't feel like playing. It's sad, I say this to my friends all the time that I am a single player girly. But Dead By Daylight keeps bringing me back, similar to Mass Effect 3 Multi-player as I've said before.
I think that's the reason why I come on here, share what I think would help someone else, and even if it's the "other side" - I do not believe in gatekeeping knowledge. It's the same I got from going on the ME3MP forums and Reddit. I got to see spreadsheets, optimal builds, best guns to use, how to play characters, and I fell in love. Similar to this game, I just wish the community was more like the ME3MP variant. Any time someone struggled, you were helped. Any time you needed advice, they were there to answer. Hardly if ever did I experience toxicity in that game (granted, it's PVE and you're going against hordes but it was nice to experience a gaming community that uplifted you.)
You could go a round of soloing in Gold/Platinum (what I played) and be thanked. Hardly if ever people back on the PS3 (I played back then lol) would come out and make excuses, being toxic, nothing. - I am not saying I never experienced it before, but on the top of my head it's two times.
I get way more toxicity in the game of Dead By Daylight, even arguably more than I got from other games - Fortnite, Overwatch, GTA Online. It's a travesty, given how much I care for the game itself even though I disagree with the developers on some things.
I try to be the bridge between both roles, I don't really try to be tribalism or us v them - it doesn't fix anything.
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Killer
Speaking of exit gate opening lol
I just played a round where i died to a 99'ed gate as meg got tunneled off at 4 gens left, i looped the killer for atleast the last 3, and then got chased out of the basement and wouldve made it if they didnt 99 the gate first lol, but yea i didnt give up even with an early tunnel out. But technicly i lost. I won in doing my part but i died regardless of how well i played - as expected, but was 1 descision of another player away from escaping and technicly winning.
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Nice! I'm glad you're taking what I said and applying it.
Your build is also not bad, even though I use exhaustion for the most part. Not saying I need it, I have looped a Kaneki with zero exhaustion before - I just like to have it, lol.
Yes, I also do the 99% strat but I will open it when I know that the team will be going in for the unhook.
My randoms might be different compared to others, but what I find in my random games is that people do typically try to come back and unhook you. I hardly if ever see someone literally open a gate and immediately leave.
Again, not saying it doesn't exist I'm saying at my hours I do not see it. It's great that you bought your team time to do the objectives and the looping for three gens to pop. - it's always nice to see during your own chase that gens are flying.
That's why I think if people curbed the desire to DC (even if bots were present) would make games much better. I genuinely do believe that my survivor peers do not understand how much of a reward and accomplishment you will be if you just choose to play the game.
I don't DC against killers, I don't give up unless I know for a fact that it is not going to be a favorable outcome - hatch closed and the doors are close, I will abandon and not feel sorry about it and hop in another game. Once survivors realize that you wasting time is what makes killers have to work for their win condition the game will be much better.
I play with my friends who I disagree with at times - they'll say, "I'm gonna let the random die. The random sandbagged me, the random didn't last x time in chase, I'm leaving her on hook." I do not operate on this level. I do not care if you cannot last in chase, you're getting unhooked, and you will buy our team time to do things.
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Killer
Valid take, to be honest. There are some survivor games where I know I screwed up, and taking that loss is fine. There are some killers that I see so rarely that I don't know effective counterplay intuitively, so I lose and feel I cannot do anything, and that sucks. The worst case is when I match with 3 people not doing gens while I take chase, or handing the killer a free snowball with poorly thought out saves when I'm not in chase. Seeing lots of bellycrawling going on somewhere else on the map while I work on completing the first gen is a knock for sure.
I don't agree, but I respect your view and understand where it comes from. My kyrptonite is a good Wesker. Wesker is not OP I just suck against him. Those are my survivor games where I feel i can't do anything, as you described. Anecdotally, bad-to-medium-skill Weskers are the most DC prone of any killer I face, maybe on par with Springtrap, so I'm never in a game with him long enough to feel the other side.Fully on board. I even make posts purely for good vibes because people get so bogged down in their negativity about a game they are supposed to willingly give their free time, I think they forget what they participate for in the first place. DBD is a game where negative experiences are much more memorable, because amazing plays usually have a more etheral impact on the overall gamestate. It's not like popping off in a hero shooter, allowing a clean break to secure the objective and win the game as a direct consequence. Moments like that still happen, but in general most plays contribute to a push and pull of who is applying the most pressure to the other side, instead of who is making a game-winning play with a single decision.
I think we all consciously agree we'd prefer a more unified playerbase. Like I said earlier, it's a net positive if everyone is having fun. Survivors having more fun are less likely to DC or give up and request you hook them so they can abandon, which is more fun for killer and vice versa. The issue is most see any buff to the enjoyability of one role as a nerf to their chosen role (this is true sometimes, cannot lie), and it breeds arguments based on fear of losing out.
Even when it seems not to be worth it, I'm always nice in EGC. I'll credit particular players that I noticed were really good, and never bring attention to someone doing poorly. I think the most toxic I've been is cut in on another survivor blaming out Claudette over some nonsense. The Claudette said sorry and I told them not to apologise, as they did fine and the other player doesn't need it reinforced that hurling insults gets them validation like that. New players will make mistake. Hell, the old guard make mistakes too. DBD is a hard game and we could do to remember that.1 -
Yes, precisely the Claudette moment.
You have people trying to dictate and optimize other people when us survivors do not operate on that plane. I hardly if ever message people, unless like they did something then I have to go out of my way (add on Steam, message) or Xbox (communicate there). I do not come at survivors to ask them why they did such and such - I might have done that years ago but I can probably count on one hand of me doing it. Even then, it's more of an education situation rather than a git gud moment.
I think a lot of people forget their own roots. You were not as good as you are today, you sat and invested time into a game. I've seen people with less than 1k hours and know micro gameplay (flashlight saves, looping movement, and general game sense). This is why I opt to help than to criticize. People will complain that survivors are brain dead, can't take chase, can't do x, can't do y - but then they don't take the time to help the person. It creates stagnation and I do not want stagnation on either side - it is why I say use what you want. Four Gen regression, Thana/Dying Light Plague/Legion, impossible skill check Doctor, aura reading mobility killers / Huntress, slugging, tunneling, whatever it is you want to do - I will work around it and adapt.
People need both the adapt mindset and also to stop degrading others. It isn't cool, it isn't fun to make a Claudette have to apologize for something that was never that deep in the first place. It's just something that bothers me, I don't know lol.
Also, for Wesker what I like to do is create space for him just like I would handle a Krasue. I will pre-drop with a Wesker, if a Wesker vaults the pallet - I vault back over it. It's why I wish Kaneki had a similar mechanic - sometimes you can do it, other times you're just down to the power. - Wesker struggles with objects between you and Wesker, yes Weskers can do their little techs but the ideal is to keep an obstacle between you and Wesker - same for a Krasue.
Ah yes, I will give a visual representation of it too if you want to see it. -
https://youtu.be/xjubd9TdLhI?si=XmxrmhSI6lC73asX
I hardly upload because I'm a Political Science major, but yes. 😊
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Killer
You might have to forgive the typos by the by. I'm doing this on a work laptop and there's no native spellcheck on the browser I have to use D:
As I'm still sub-1k, I recognise that I'm in a position of not being good by long-term standards, but competent and able to contribute decently in every facet of the game. I've even hit a point where I consciously hold back as killer just to make the game more fun on rare occasions, which is surprising as I never thought I'd be good enough to get away with that. I recall a game with two Feng Mins. They were clearly together and there was a very noticeable difference in how they moved. It was for sure an experienced player helping their new friend get used to the game. Every time I went near the less experienced Feng Min, the other was there bagging desperately for the chase to protect her. It was cute, to be honest. So, I obliged, chased, hooked, and when I had no info other than where baby Feng was, I chased her, but went pure M1, maybe letting her get away with a single hit instead of confirming the second. The result was an EGC where high-hour Feng was thanking me and low-hour Feng was enthusing over how scary the game was.
People do forget that this game takes time to get good at. The skill floor for survivor is shockingly high given it's supposed to be 80% of the playerbase at any given point. The majority of people also respond better to positive reinforcement rather than negative. People say they want the game to survive then immediately condemn terrible players for being terrible, instead of being inexperienced. Getting targeted with hate when you're new or stepping out of your comfort zone is gonna discourage you from doing the thing. If the thing is playing the game at all because you're too new to understand why you're getting hate, then that's the thing you stop. Boom, we lose a potentially great member of the community and they forever see this one as a mire of anger and toxicity. Not gonna claim to be fully innocent, though. Sometimes I get mad at my team. I just keep that internal.
Wesker is one of the only killers left that gets to my panicky side. I'm pretty reactive to certain things, and my mental is my biggest hurdle. I can survive Blight/Nurse for considerably longer than I can survive Myers or Wesker. Something about the way Myers still jumpscares the hell out of me to this day, or the sound design on Wesker's dash, activates some primal prey-response in me when I'm survivor, and I struggle to think ahead. I do appreciate the tips though. Forgetting to vault back is probably my gravest vs-Wesker sin.1 -
Yeah, I apologize for the cussing in my videos lol.
I think a lot of people might whiplash when they see how analytical I am compared to how I am when I'm gaming. I've been trying to tone it down, but you know how gaming moments are.
Yep, I remember playing Skull Merchant (back before her nerfs) and I did not tunnel, camp - even stretching to proxy camping. Just regular no fluff, no toxicity as Skull Merchant. Two people DCed relatively early in the game, I decided to then kill the bots and allow the two to go. It's amazing because when I did play killer, I obviously played similar to how I handle my survivor gameplay. I go for the win, but I typically did not go out of my way to tunnel/camp - I didn't feel like I needed to do it and for the most part, I played with meta perks. I think the least meta perk I've used is with Skull Merchant back in the day (Thwack, Pop, Nowhere To Hide, and Surge) - still my build on her even if I have no intentions to play her again.
I very rarely slugged for the 4k, only did that when I was going against a 4 man SWF with hatch offerings and flashlights/flashbangs. Similar to a Wraith game that I've talked about on here. I feel like people read my comments and wonder why I do not play flex or a killer main, as I've said I find it boring. - that isn't to look down on killer mains, I view them as a peer, similar to a sparring partner.
I also will admit that I do get more tilted when I played killer than I did survivor - I still tilt as survivor, but I do not really sacrifice the match over being tilted. I am aware people make mistakes, I do not punish people for making those mistakes verbally. I will punish your mistakes in game, but I will not go out of my way and insult you.
I do feel like I ran meta because I could afford to do that. A lot of killer mains I see (even the killer main friend I talked about earlier ^) stated that he thinks exhaustion perks are second chance, I obviously disagree and view them as tools to be used - just like the killer strategies I believe killers can utilize too. The point being I tell people all the time, if you are struggling with a persistent perk itself - re-evaluate your build and counter it.
I ran meta because exhaustion as killer did not bother me, second chance (I hardly got hit with them anyways) didn't bother me - so, I could afford to play with meta perks without feeling bad for using them. Even in the Wraith game, I used Starstruck because I saw the survivors had flashlights. - I literally went in my build, swapped a meta perk out for Starstruck, had a rough start on Eyrie of Crows, but managed to 4k.
I truly believe Starstruck is slept on compared to Lightborn and I'd argue Starstruck is better macro wise than Lightborn. I think a lot of people think I should be a killer main, but alas I like to play survivor so I dropped killer and I do not have any intention to pick it up again in all honesty.
Not that the role is bad, it's too easy, it's too hard - I simply prefer outsmarting the power role and punishing them for their mistakes. Same for when I get outsmarted and punished for my mistakes, I respect when a killer can outplay me.
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Killer
but you know how gaming moments are.
A proverbial heated gamer moment. I can't watch anything at work, even though I'm clearly not being productive anyway! Might check it out later when I've got the time.
The degree to which I sweat depends entirely on who I am playing against. Less about proving a point and more about what's fun. If the game is going too well when I'm trying, that's my chance to try the world's most unlikely mindgame as an experiment, or go for axe orbitals, or try and make the billion different killer techs work in a real game setting. To be honest, I am still to slug specifically for the 4k. I have slugged someone before to go and find the one player that had been stealthing the whole game, hook them, then let the slug stand back up by backpacking them around for a a bit. Let them choose if they wanted to save the teammate who let everyone else get to 2/3 hooks. They chose not to. Maybe that was toxic of me, coulda just been a scared player, but after the game they appeared to have more than enough prestige levels to understand that they were playing selfishly to a point of near sandbagging.
In terms of exhaustion, I don't mind them. I actually like how dynamic they can make the game sometimes. A player I know has lithe is likely to take more risks for a vault if they're trapped on an unsafe tile, so I can zone the vault. A player with balanced landing is gonna favour an upstairs gen under most circumstances, so when do I pressure them off to get them on cooldown, and do I do this directly, or by pressuring the rest of the team? Or do I just chase anyway because their perch has no safe tiles nearby? Dead hard is funny when they miss so that's always worth it, and if they get it, I have to respect it, because it's essentially a parry and they read me to accomplish that.
In terms of playing killer vs survivor and who I main, I am pretty stark 50/50. I expected to be mostly killer, especially as my early survivor experience was so much more difficult, but playing survivor taught me so much about killer that I invested time, and now I enjoy it about as much for different reasons.
I'm not much into theorycrafting builds yet, as I'm still sub 1k. I tend to run basically what I feel like. I must admit I'm a bit addicted to balanced landing, though. It's probably because I can't seem to roll a map that isn't saloon.0 -
Yes, I try not to cuss as much as I used to in videos I've done a year ago, lol. I don't even cuss on here, but I'm a sailor when it comes to the gameplay at times.
See, I would have this mentality - the whole take it easy, but I remember one time playing SWF. The team I was with was saying this Pinhead isn't that good, he sucks with his chains, etc. So, my team kinda laxxed on him and I knew deep down, just like with my Wraith example that you can have a rough start and then completely start bulldozing things when the survivor role messes up. You know what happened? Complete 4k.
So, when I play survivor I don't "take it easy" on the opponent. At any time, in my brain - the killer could simply just struggled for whatever reason at first and then completely find their tempo and it's a gg moment. I could do that as Skull Merchant or the other games I had as killer because at that point, I already won. 2 people DCed, I don't want to stigmatize Skull Merchant further, so I let them go. (probably the friendliest Skull Merchant they met). - same for when I have achieved 3 kills, in my brain I've already won. I do not care that you get hatch, I do not care to sit here and slug you, I do not care for all of that. Even Momo, who I have played against (comp player) doesn't do this or at least when I faced him and saw him play, he doesn't sit there and slug you for the 4k. He will hook the third, go find hatch, you find hatch - doesn't matter Momo already won, you're a tally in his winstreak.
Killer has more initiative to do that as they are the ones who are supposed to be the power role, the one exerting pressure on the map and in the trial. Survivors, to me - does not have the luxury to do that unless you consider "bully" squads and I tell the same killer main friend that to me, bully squads are handing you a win on a silver platter. They aren't doing gens (unless it's some weird hybrid bully squad efficient gen SWAT unit) - once you recognize the pattern that they're doing, they are easily dealt with. They will more than likely not get the gens done, at least not efficiently - take advantage of that knowledge.
This is exactly why if I use builds that are more conditional than Sprint Burst - yes, I believe Sprint Burst is the easiest condition wise, but people misuse it and walk everywhere (I call that a walking simulator gamer) - but when I use Lithe, Overcome, Balanced Landing, Smash Hit - I do not use them as one off exhaustion perks... Again, this is where I say I like to outsmart my killer peer. They see Lithe, they're like "Okay, she has Lithe" - they get in chase with me again, I pallet stun them (I get Smash Hit value). I like to keep killers on their toes when it comes to my builds, that's why I prefer to run off-meta perks because I like to challenge myself and put the killer in the situation to think, just like I am doing during our chase.
I do not use Windows - I am not the survivor main that will say relying on it is autopilot, you don't know how to loop, you don't know how to play, you just run to yellow that killer mains will say. For the most part, if someone tells me they need advice for looping - I point them to WOO. People also use WOO for soloq, but at my hours and experience I know where the pallets are, I know how to chain tiles together, and I do not need a perk to tell me where to go - I use my eyes, I can see the pallets in the trial, not that difficult for me so I get perk choice freedom because I do not need Windows.
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Killer
I agree that, as survivor, there isn't a need to take it easy on anyone. Like you mention, the killer dictates the pace of the game, so as survivor you don't get to decide when to sweat and when not to. I will engage if some silliness with the killer if they elect for it though. A quick nod exchange over a pallet etc. As for bully squads, to be honest they just lose games in my experience.
Honestly, it's down to the individual in this game to find their own win condition. Yes, it's nicer to escape as survivor but if I feel I contributed, there's no salt if I don't. If a killer wants to slug for the 4K, I don't mind. They'll have their own reasons for doing it and that's their fun to do so. It's me that got slugged/allowed my team to all be killed so easily without executing enough pressure of my own before it got to this stage.
I've either never been hit by Smash, or it happened early enough in my DBD career that I didn't notice it. I don't think I've ever seen it in lobby post-game either, which is bizarre. It's niche, certainly, but I feel it's simple enough that someone would want to run it on occasion. Props to you for being surprising, I suppose.
I admit I am still somewhat reliant on Windows. Despite this game being in my top 10 most played on steam, I'm still learning maps, pallet spawns, vault locations and how all of those things vary. I'm quite sure I'll need several hundred more hours to begin knowing these things intuitively. Then again, I know gen spawns now outside of the new map, so perhaps not quite that long? Who knows! It does feel crutchy sometimes. I try to be sure of where I'm running to but there are still times where I W towards the yellow and figure it out when I get there, which is a bad habit.0 -
Oh yeah, I remember a Steam user being nodding Wesker and I genuinely enjoyed him. I have my grievances with Wesker - I can feel his gameplay is a bit repetitive for me (I also didn't like the whole I drop pallet - Wesker hits me and I'm on the other side of the pallet) - incredibly frustrating. Anywho, I would have a blast with him. Same for the Wesker who would try to do their little Wesker techs and let the survivors go. However, I have seen similar killers that try to be like that and completely derail a whole game. I can remember a Ghostface running Rancor (I was obsession) and I believe he had a full end game build - I can't remember everything, but just know I knew he was not friendly - my random soloq believed he was friendly. Last gen pops, NOED is active, people go down like flies, and I'm the only one that escaped so my mentality typically is I play serious, just like I believe my opponent is also being serious. ^ simply for situations like that.
Yes, my certain win condition is as I said to the previous poster. If I die and my death contributed to the last gen popping, the exit gate being opened, my team being able to reset, etc. - I take that as a personal win. There is obviously a difference between a personal win and a direct win condition, but you know I get incredibly hyped when I can die and my team has secured a 3 man out due to my death.
I think once the community realizes to stop viewing stuff as crutches and focus on the training wheel aspect of Windows is when people will stop adhering themselves to what the other side wants them to be.
Similar when I see killer mains talk about the killer rulebook - you play how you want to play, I play how I want to play, etc and so on. Perks to me are not crutches, they are tools to be utilized. It's honestly why I do not view second chance perks the same way other survivor mains and killer mains view them.
Just because you don't use them doesn't mean you should view them as crutches and as I've said before, a killer is not entitled to a free tunnel. (second chance perks void that) nor does a killer get entitled to tell others that they're being handicapped and playing autopilot with Windows when these same killer mains cannot operate without aura reading. It's just a pot calling the kettle black, let people play what they want without judgment as it's not entirely detrimental to the team as a whole.
You're not here to impress me or others, in my opinion you shouldn't care how others view you using tools to get better and actively suppressing a training wheel (WOO) because others look down on it, view it as a crutch, view someone as a noob - no one asked for their opinions and you do not play for the person who enjoys said perks. But again, I just wish people would just look at the system, make their own conclusion, and stop worrying about how their builds or playstyle is viewed by others - it oftentimes feels like the DBD community is just a hivemind of needing to know something works, this build works, this style works - no, find your own style and own it.
Edit: also, I guess this is why I don't really come on here to talk about builds because it feels like I'm talking a foreign language to people who are still stuck in the meta-slave mindset.
So, when you say something like "Props to you for being surprising, I suppose." seems a bit unwarranted in a way. If you think about it logically - if I don't get a pallet stun, I use Lithe. If I get a pallet stun, I get Smash Hit (Smash Hit allows me to get exhaustion back quicker). But again, I do not expect nuance or macro thinking when it comes to the forums, quite simply. I don't expect people to do deep dives into perks, what works, etc - it's why I do not do it because to be honest, everything as subjective. People think they need DH, Windows, Adrenaline, Resilience, Finesse to be a good survivor yet I see people with those same builds struggle. Same thing for killer, yet the community still adopts this ancient idea that if my friends, the community, the content creators say x perk is bad, it is indeed bad. Truly mindboggling.
People always need validation for their builds, people need permission to play a certain way, people need to feel as it's they're handheld like children to validate their worldview, which I honestly believe needs to be disregarded. People in this community need to start thinking on their own and stop parroting things they hear - it's honestly embarrassing for a community based on numbers, results, and everything else and that be given to the killer role and not the survivor role. - even when those same killer roles dismiss, disregard, and invalidate their "peers".
Post edited by CautionaryMary on0 -
Killer
I think it's okay to give credit for breaking the norm. Regardless of if, in an ideal world, the norm shouldn't exist in the first place. Because yes, in said ideal world, people would make individual choices for their builds/playstyle based on what they enjoy or feel most comfortable with. For some, external validation is required for that, due to lacking confidence, or needing a level of outside information to click the pieces together in how a build would work. For others, if it's fun, they do it. You fall into the latter, by what you're saying.
When I say crutch, referring exclusively to myself, it comes less from a place of self-depreciation or disrepect to someone running Windows per se, and more due to me not having every map and tile down pat just yet. Bad-habit-builder is more of a mouthful than crutch, and sometimes I worry just how well I'd play without it. As I said before, sometimes I'm okay and run the map as I should be doing for best effect, other times I'm less put together and literally run to the next yellow. When I'm doing that specifically, I know I'm engaging in behaviour that isn't really helping me improve. And I, as a player, would like to.
My fun is seeing those incremental improvements. Comparing my first few chases to today, it's stark, but I still remember the first time I successfully transfered from one tile to another without eating a health state and kept the loop going for a little while longer. It was hardly a clip-worthy multi-gen loop, but it was the first time I successfully made a 'play,' no matter how modest it was.
Modern era players, such as myself, that didn't get any prolonged time growing with the game, have stepped into an established meta with players that know all the maps and mechanics intuitively. Experimentation is heavily punished and the game is so frontloaded with information and knowledge checks that it does not surprise me that people are scared to deviate. It's sort of like art, in a way. It's not about breaking rules; it's about knowing the rules so you know how to break them. Basically, a good knowledge of perkless fundamentals is key, and that knowledge base takes at least hundreds of hours to grow for all but the fastest learners.
Players that are snobby about builds or build ideas without consideration of what the intended effect is are dumb though. Fun>Meta every day of the week.0 -
Yes, I think after the previous comment and even the Trickster thread I noticed I must be operating on high MMR logic and I forget that high MMR people more than likely are not present here.
Not trying to be rude, that's why I took offense earlier to your previous comment but now I can see the skill gap present between the two of us and the other stuff I often feel disconnected from in the forums. - now it all makes sense to me.
I think because I've met 1k hour players in my own MMR bracket, but I should have seen the more anxiety inducing language (worrying about crutches, validation, as a major indicator of the gap between the wavelength). You are correct that you as a player with less hours than me (even though I do see people with your hours in high MMR - not saying you are bad, I am just giving my reasoning on why I believed you and I were similar earlier)
I won't argue against the mentality that people enter at a point of time where meta and existing conditions didn't exist, I was that back when I first played. However, my level of learning was immediate - I did not play the game without any knowledge. I do this with every game I play, I look into the strategies to do better but I know now that people did not naturally do that. They would spawn in, act like the Claudette, be memed on, and not even know why they're being memed on.
I did not enter the game as the crouching Claudette, I watched Dead By Daylight content religiously every day and got better through watching content. However, again I now know that is not the norm for normal people from now realizing I am seeing low MMR survivor and killer mains upset at each other and blaming the other role. This was very eye-opening for me to recognize.
Moreover, yes - the level of what you are doing is improvement, it's what I did years ago and started having when I started clipping my own chases years ago. I only recently started uploading the content because I got tired of people complaining (mostly on here) about how horrible soloq is. Now I truly understand why I can load in my soloq games and enjoy my games, I just play and operate on a whole different level than the normal players on here. I just realized that I don't even think the survivors here know what micro and macro play even is, lol.
Thank you for allowing me to understand why the gap between not only myself to others are on here (it's why I take breaks, I can only take so much tit-for-tat on these forums) and also understanding why I see so much vitriol from both sides - it's genuinely one side thinking the other is harder, easier, feeling based - and I now know why I view the game much differently than people here.
But yes, I do different builds not because of comfort - not because I want to act like I'm superior to others, or whatever someone might think when I say I don't need WOO. I genuinely get bored if I play the same build over and over, so I like that I create different builds per survivor - hence why I advocate for synergy, but now I truly know that I operate much differently than most people here, lol.
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Killer
Honest to goodness there was literally no offense intended, my dude. I was crediting you for being creative because most discourse I've seen as a newer member of the community has revolved around very specific perks. It was great for me to learn what the consensus was, but it also left the hundreds of other perks a bit abstract and confusing.
I think we are similar in mindset, less so skill level. In that, we're not particularly meta-bound and critical without cause. Instead, we approach from the angle of what we enjoy most about the game. I see perks like tools as well, and don't worry too much about things like second chance perks. I can empathise why they're annoying, sure, but if they're being used passively, you're playing against a survivor with one less tool in the belt, and if they're being used aggressively, like baiting chase for DS, it honestly only delays the inevitable in my experience. Not that they are bad perks at all! More that there is opportunity cost there and I think people neglect that in favour of how annoying they can be from a killer's perspective (this is where I think the friend you mentioned earlier in the thread is at).
I didn't come in completely blind either. My partner has played DBD for years so she was able to guide me a little, and I did start consuming some streamers and picking up little things here and there. Following on from that came reading up on things, watching actual guides instead of weekly highlights, and of course, playing the game on my own without someone helping me out. I don't believe myself a total scrub! I'm by no means good by established player, but I can hold my own in my MMR and have been advancing on both sides to seeing more consistent high level techs being used correctly. That tells me I'm moving in the right direction :)
I don't believe there's any shame in running Windows, Bond, Deja Vu or anything like that. From a practical standpoint, I fear only stunting myself. Nor do I think anyone is claiming superiority for not running them (unless they outright state they are superior) because so many things in this game will become second nature at high levels that many players won't need them. Hell, even the kind of gamesense I've seen to track every burned resource on the map at once, making WoO nigh an empty slot for some. That to me is amazing and I wish one day to be at that level. I just want to be conscious of how actively I'm taking in the info Windows is providing me, vs passively pathing towards the next "make distance" map element and hoping it works out.
Maybe when you take your next break, you'll come back after my training montage and I'll be theorycrafting builds and posting my own 5 gen loops and 3 min 4ks. In the meantime, I hope you are feeling good and not too stressed out.
GL to ya!0 -
Lmfao, I am not stressed out - I don't know how you read that whole thing and signaled that I am the one under duress - but again, this is exactly what I typed out.
I literally thanked you, your reaction was defensive.
I don't know man, I don't know how you can read calm, composed, and be reactive but yes - thanks for the exchange regardless - best of luck to you.
Edit: this is what I'm talking about with anxiety inducing language. I do not operate like that because of my ability to differentiate between games. Exactly why earlier I mentioned I do not take the game from last time - think my game where I said my whole team went down to Trickster due to main event (that people struggle with in the Trickster thread). Do I take that frustration out on the next Trickster I see? Nope, I notice what works, apply it, and adapt.
I am never under stress in this game, at all - do not project that onto me, please and thank you.
Edit 2: also, you do not need to explain yourself to me. Just because I say I view the game different from where I play does not mean I look down at others for not knowing counterplay with another killer. I literally go out of my way to write long, composed messages helping both sides (Anxious, Autistic killer main seeking advice that no killer main for some reason could not provide) to Krasue, Kaneki, and The First counterplay. I do not want you to feel as if you need to double down and tell me that you are improving, I literally said that you were improving in my last text.
Point being, play how you want. Learning is not linear, it's up and down. You will have good games, you will have bad games, you will be steamrolled in some games, and completely dominate others - the only person you need to worry about impressing and needing hype/validation from is yourself - not me, a random player who can see the game differently.
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Killer
I think there's a massive disconnect between what's being written and what's being interpreted dude. Text is famously bad at conveying tone.
I'm not under duress. I'm not sure what you mean by anxiety-inducing language. I've already gone into length about what I meant by crutch.
I mention offense because you mentioned taking offense earlier in the thread, before realising none was intended. I was aligning with that.
Hoping you are not too stressed out has nothing to do with how you feel in-game. I was actually trying to be nice because of your previous statement that the disconnect you feel from the forums makes you feel the need to take a break from them. I presumed that was due to negative feelings and was wishing you well with that. No malintent, no accusation. My only mistake was presuming the breaks you take from the forum are a result of stress with said disconnect.
I'm not seeking validation. I'm making lighthearted jokes about my own newness and desire to grow. I'm not even being reactive, as I myself am perfectly fine and calm. Speaking on my own improvement is me being optimistic, not doubling down or presuming you doubt me. I honestly don't know from where you're getting my intent :/. Don't project unkind motivations onto me, the same way you're hoping I would not to you.
I'm just here chatting about a game I like. I'm quite saddened that doing so has me viewed this way.
But yes, I think this conversation ran its course. Later!0 -
Oh my gosh, alright dude.
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Survivor
I think it's probably survivor with a huge "but". So:
If you have a killer that absolutely destroys you as a survivor you don't really have the chance to come back. Espeacially when he decides to slug 3 of you and down you again over and over again. But here's the "but" you ether make gens and force the killer to down you in which you're dead in 4 minutes, or you just let yourself bleed out after being slugged directly.
As killer you don't get that easy chance of giving up. If you can't catch the survivors you will be stuck for potentially a hour, you simply don't have the ability to bleed out or something.
(The things I say base on the goal to not get a matchmaking penality. Keep in mind that I don't really use the abandon feature so it could be that forgot something on any side).
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Killer
I agree that a bad survivor match sucks, not that it sucks worse but getting rolled and struggling desperately against a losing situation isn't the most fun or engaging thing. Can feel like you're trying to beat back the ocean with a tennis racket.
The killer being the more 'active' role (in terms of changing the gamestate immediately and directly) does allow for more avenues to come back, yes, so I think it comes down to what you find more difficult. A feeling of hopelessness that is at least over relatively quickly (getting stomped as survivor), or a feeling of humiliation that at least has a chance of a comeback (getting stomped as killer). I find the latter a tougher pill to swallow simply because it tends to last longer. It's close though, because at least as killer if you're outmatched there's time to learn, whereas being outmatched as survivor can be tough learn from if it's just a slaughter.1 -
Survivor
Well I have the funny situation that I play survivor super rarely if ever, so I really don't care much about it if I win. Means in situations like this it's a bit annoying but I don't care really about the lose espeacially because it's quickly.
Also Killer is my mainrole and I play mostly for winning within my own mindset. So I play with tunneling and camping if I get offered the chance and try to take the most efficient opportunities, but I don't force it too much. That means I hate losing in case of killer and that makes me hate being stomped as killer much much more. At the same time my own tendency to play efficient makes me understand being slugged and tunneled more as survivor and reduces my hate in that case even more xD
Yeah idk, I feel like my adhd is a huge component in that because I usually really obsess about specific things and everything else is irrelevant for me :D
(Oh also I'm german and my thoughs are often really scattered when writting, so I will surely have some spelling errors or forgoten words in my texts)
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Survivor
Survivor, by far.
I never feel helpless as killer. Even if I get to end game with zero hooks I can (and have) won. I feel I can keep charging forward until the end. I once had the same fatalistic mentality as a lot of people, that survivor is meant to lose more than win so I shouldn't stress, but I no longer agree with that mindset. If you put enough hours into a game you should be able to see better than average results without having to go full sweat comp. Though there's certainly been times when the game has paired me against survivors I shouldn't have been with, I still felt capable of action and a full, whole match. But as survivor, it sometimes takes just 30s to realize the matchmaker has fed my soloq lobby to a p100 Blight CC's winstreak and that's infuriating. Knowing there's nothing I can do is the game's worst feeling, and I only regularly get that feeling as survivor.
I also only really feel anything of value was achieved for me as survivor unless I escape or my team escapes. Having a good chase is not satisfying to me, nor is completing gens. But as killer, each hook and each kill feel like their own little victories, like a meter is filling by up. So my survivor satisfaction is more black and white, while my killer one has a varied range.
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Killer
That's a valid take. I'm in agreement that a survivor game can feel hopeless, more so than killer. These days I tend not to get frustrated with the game, so while I feel a poorly balanced match when playing as killer (both in your favour and not in your favour) is a worse experience, neither prompts me to abandon.
I think Killer falls into the worse experience for me is because if I'm clearly at a higher level than the survivors, then cleaning house isn't particularly fun. Walking down a Dwight or Meg that is holding forward in a blind panic isn't fun or rewarding, and after I catch them all I'm thinking is that I didn't enjoy the chase, and that survivor is probably another step towards not playing the game anymore.
If I'm the weaker link in matchmaking, then killer can be tiring. Ignoring BM, being unable to accomplish the only thing you're meant to be doing. Dealing with stuns, delays and the sound of gens popping constantly as a little reminder that while all this is going on, you are also losing. It's demoralising.
Survivor is a more relaxed game for me. If we're getting wiped it'll be over quick, and if the killer isn't particularly good, at least I can practice my timings in chase without worrying that I'm going to cost the team the game.0
