http://dbd.game/killswitch
Diminishing Returns Feedback
Comments
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1: For a lot of effects, its not needed at all. Healing already has diminishing returns.
2: The decrease numbers are pretty extreme. If you just said 'every effect after the first will be at 75%' it would still be a massive game shift that would kill lots of builds, but it wouldn't be this extreme (and also much easier to understand)
3: There are so many things that it isn't touching and doesn't seem related to. Some positive feedback seems to be focused around - somewhere down the line this will let them get to X which is the real issue. I think that's an absolutely horrible approach, to do something that isn't good now on the hopes that one day it will allow a good thing to happen.
4: I think its underestimated how much this will destroy certain builds. Perks are balanced around having requirements or penalties (Deja only on certain gens, resilience staying injured), the downside remains the same while benefit drops substantially, making stacking not just less attractive but outright an awful play in most situations.
The first part of this (not going to change the meta) seems impossible to say with such confidence - large scale changes are happening and how things end up playing out is not always evident right away.
The latter part is nice in concept, but if this change isn't needed now, but is for some future changes, why not actually do it when you are making the changes you need it for so that we all can give actual feedback?
5 -
I think this is extremely well said and I want to highlight my thoughts with it as well. I do still have concerns as of now about perks that have lesser values becoming significantly less used and that the top meta perks will become even more common since specialized builds are being directly nerfed. But the overall effort that was put forth (to my understanding) was that perks are going to be adjusted afterwards if this goes live to increase values since worrying about busted perk builds will not be at the forefront of things (because unfortunately this is currently the primary concern whenever there is a new chapter introduced with new or adjusted perks) . There are so many perks in the game whose values are so minimal, or their activation requirements are so convoluted that running them on their own is a waste. With this system in place, we can actually get perks that are worth it on their own and won't break the game.
The numbers as of now feel aggressive. I agree with the poster here as well that those smaller values feel kind of unnecessary for this system to kick in. When running two healing perks together that don't even cross a 50% increase and there are individual perks that give you that base amount right off the bat, I don't feel this system should be kicking in. Having a threshold for when this system starts to apply I think would be good. That threshold I feel should be different depending on what is being increased or decreased. Like if it's healing speed, once it hits 100%, the system kicks in, as an example. And echoing their comment on the values, the actual diminishing return numbers could be adjusted. I think starting at 75% and going down to 50% and then 25% and then 12.5% would feel a lot better, but personally if there was a set threshold to trigger when this system would activate, leaving the totals as is wouldn't feel as aggressive.
Lastly, the devs said this was not intended to be a total meta shift. This is intended to reign in busted value builds. There are literally builds in the game right now on the survivor side that allows you to pick someone up off the ground that the killer just downed right in front of their face. This is definitely not a fun experience on the killer side. Inversely, though much more niche, there are killer builds that make healing virtually impossible and everyone is essentially turned into one hits the entire match with no counter. These builds are also boosted by A and S tier killers making that a very unfun experience on the survivor side. These values need desperately to be reigned in. I don't think this is a perfect system, but it is a very necessary one and as long as perks are buffed if this goes live, it could have a slew of positive effects for the game. It'll suck at the start but will eventually even itself out to make an overall more balanced game (not fully balanced, just more balanced than it was before).
When I played the ptb, I went in on my old speed healing builds to see how it felt and overall, the change didn't feel as aggressive as I thought. I also was extremely worried and not too happy when this was announced, but after testing and looking at the potential this will bring to the game. I am hoping this goes live with some adjustments.
-1 -
This new system is gonna cause so many problems for perks like we're gonna need perks reworked and buffed if this system goes through like 30 perks a patch of buffs and reworks
3 -
Thrill of the hunt is going to be oppressive, not that it isnt already.
0 -
Making it be affected and effect killer powers seems like a bad decision, since the killers (if im remembering correctly) that have basekit haste, is knight, trapper, skull merchant, and clown. All killers that really dont need nerfs, with 0 compensation buffs.
This also is VERY confusing. Ive been doing a lot of testing and when you say "addons are not affected by diminishing returns" can also lead to confusion on what counts as the "addon"
EXAMPLE -
Ghostface sheath addon (haste when marking a survivor) has no effect from or to the diminishing returns
Clowns addon cheap gin bottle (increases his haste from invigorated by 3%, bringing it to 15%) actually DOES affect and is effected by diminishing returns. cause the game doesnt treat the 3% as its own amount, but rather treats it as the base power being 15%, easiest seen if you have play with your food at 3 stacks
if the addon was its own count it should be
15% + 6% + 3% = 24%. but since the game considers the power to be 15% its actually 15%+17.5% being 22.5% haste
Is this an oversight? a bug? or is it intentional since the addon itself is not giving haste, but rather increasing the power. if so then addons DO affect it. and its addons on already low tier killers
This is just the killer side of things, i havnt had time to test survivor items/addons with perks to see how all that works. like, do addons that increase heal speed of medkits not get affected by diminishing returns?
2 -
I definitely feel a system like this is needed at this point, but outside of haste specifically, this implementation feels too inflexible to deal with the issues it wants to solve.
Punishing perk stacking instead of putting a soft cap on action speed modifiers directly means that while certain strong combos do get nerfed, weaker perk combinations get hit just as harshly. If someone wants to run a repair speed build, why would they ever run Full Circuit and Soft Spoken when they offer weaker effects that are now diminished on top? Instead they can just run a toolbox, possibly with Built to Last on top, and get a stronger effect while avoiding diminishing returns entirely.
Like I've seen a few others suggest, the best solution would be implenting soft caps on action speeds, so that modifiers can be kept from getting too out of hand, without affecting non problematic combinations. Obviously the specific numbers would need to be tweaked to find the right spot, but it's easier to find where healing speed might start to become too much versus how much every combination of 2 perks should be reduced.
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Not the diminishing returns I thought were coming to the game. Diminishing Returns in THIS PTB only really hurts heavy healing builds because there are NO gen repair speed perks that are stacked that have a high pick rate. Perks and Items that speed up gen completion do different tasks to accomplish that one goal that is not affected by this 'Diminished Returns' mechanic. Set ups like Stake Out, Hyperfocus, Built to Last and a Toolbox. One gives you tokens that turn good skill checks into greats and provides bonus progress from great skill checks, one provides a higher chance to get a skill check as well as increase progress granted from skill checks based on it's token count, one just speeds up repair speed and another replenishes items to reuse again. The only Diminishing Returns I think killers would experience is less Haste stacking (sorry Clown) because I don't know if using Dying Light with Thanatophobia would count as Diminishing Returns.
The kind of Diminishing Returns I was expecting were duplicate perks would get weaker the more were brought into a match. Stake Out loses bonus progress on great skill checks by -0.2% per copy or Hyperfocus reduces bonus progress of skill checks by -5% per copy, or Unbreakable loses -7% recovery speed for each copy, Fast Track loses -0.3% permanent progress of each token for each copy. Also before anyone brings up "Fast Track isn't even that strong and not a problematic perk" by itself not that big a deal but in multiples is ridiculous. If you don't believe me, 9.5.0 PTB showcased the Fast Track change and it had a 0.82% pick rate on Live servers. Checking it today as I type this post, it has jumped to 5.49% pick rate. A perk that "isn't that strong or good" doesn't have a 650% increased pick rate in the 3 weeks since patch 9.5.0's live launch.
We can do this on some group perks for the killer too like regression perks or blocking perks. Like if a killer equips Pain Res, Pop Goes the Weasel, Turn Back the Clock and Surge. Pain Res being the strongest keeps its -20% and unaffected. PGtW drops to -7.5% as the first iteration of Diminishing Returns. TBtC gets cut to 1/4 so -2.5% as the 3rd iteration of Diminishing Returns. Surge eats a fat one being the 4th iteration of Diminishing Returns dropping to 1%
Sorry BHVR but the Diminishing Returns introduced on this PTB just ain't the answer
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We all know that won‘t happen. I just noticed we have 0 perk changes this chapter, which is crazy
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I think that implementing this system would be much better idea if you prepared those changes for the same patch.
Current presentation leaves us bitter and unsatisfied.
All we can see from all this is destroying builds that some of us love - healing, speed builds etc.This kinda hurts the casual players, destroys build variety.
11 -
yeah genuinely RIP gimmick healing build hello dh ds for the 10th year in a row
7 -
I feel like that this also should effect skillchecks, status effects (mainly vigil but it would be better to rework vigil), cleansing totems, opening chest etc.
-1 -
When strong perks remain Strong and mid perks get out on life support
6 -
It 1 and it's fast track nerfs but yeah even if I brought it down to like 10 perks a patch Devs wouldn't even be able to reach that quota
2 -
This absolutely sucks for me because my fav role in the group was Healer geuss I'm just gen rush jockey now
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Fundamentally a good idea however... As it is right now it is just gonna remove builds people use with not much incentive to use a mix of everything. In order to successfully achieve build diversity you'd have to buff the individual perks that are being limited by stacking, for example haste perks on both sides, as of right now the only strong thing this addresses is healing speeds which are strong just by putting on we'll make it alone anyways (please nerf healing speeds in general). This should be made to affect the strongest stacking on both sides of the spectrum these being slowdown stacking on killer and skill check gen rush builds on survivor because if not then people continue to run the strongest stuff and no diversity is achieved. Another issue is how these dont really affect team perk stacking, for example four survivors running sprint burst, vigil (though no longer stacks if everyone runs it everyone gets it) which causes trying to commit to a chase miserable for any killer that isn't nurse or blight, who can catch up quickly. And even then if you do nerf full slowdown and gen rush builds survivors have so many tools to extend chases and waste time that it can feel almost impossible to play against. Perks like Decisive Strike, Shoulder The Burden, Dead Hard, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Dramaturgy, basically any exhaustion perk, Finesse, Vigil in combination with exhaustion perks, Windows, and 5 Moves Ahead (to always have a resource to go to with 5 Moves even countering some killers that try to hit at pallet drops). Im sure theres even more im forgetting but these all are the most popular and the easiest or most effective at wasting time. Running into a full squad of Decisive Strike, Lithe, Finesse, Windows/ 5 Moves feels like misery and they don't even always need windows and it can be replaced with something like dead hard that wastes even more time! Shoulder the burden also has less stacking use but more insane slowdown and progress removal. An example of this is if someone less skilled messes up and gets to death hook, the more skilled player running this removes a hook state and now the killer either has to spend more time on the less skilled survivor or go after the more skilled survivor who will waste their time so much more. It is essentially a lose lose situation. If you really want perk variety bhvr you need to heavily shift the meta and nerf a lot of the strongest perks on both sides and buff the individual perks that get affected by this change. Until then this just makes 4 Slowdown and meta survivor builds more prevalent. (Also nerf healing speeds and revert mangled or something)
-2 -
I'll be honest, i would weigh in more of how the stacked values felt if… i got to experience them
every killer i went against last night opted to play without stacking perks, deciding to use perks that did not have restrictions from the diminishing returns system: i think i saw more people devout to using corrupt intervention in one night than i did for most of 2025 (not to call corrupt bad, quote thee otz: its like your grandma, old but reliable).
this is actually the exact thing i have been afraid of with regards to the diminishing returns concept: since the game still does not encourage the player to diversify strategy to anything but the most efficient things possible, instead of accepting that their stacked values will be slightly lower these builds are now not being touched at all. most survivors i were playing with either sticked to popular skill check builds or mixed ones of popular perks (exhaustion, a heal perk, a gen perk, a swing perk). while i know this is the equalization effect bhvr wants, its causing an equalization in the direction of everyone playing a small handful of builds not effected by the system. i am not sure if this is an indication that the values of the diminishing returns are too strong, or if the player base is just being entirely resistant to the idea due to them not wanting their build potential altered (both feel valid)
I would also like to voice a concern for killer add ons and how they effect the returns, as i think the way it is implemented not only makes certain add ons feel worse, but it makes the recent work to clarify perk descriptions feel worse. according to matt on the live stream, killer add ons do not innately get the diminishing returns unless the add on is changing a value in the killers base kit, like trappers haste. i think this is a lazy implementation and to add a system like this an add on pass is required, because it is not super evident which of these add ons are effected and which are not.
from my own looking (and if im wrong, please, feel free to correct me!) if an add on states a value is increased/decreased, it will be effected by diminishing returns. If the add on says it grants/unlocks/permits a modifier, these are seemingly the add ons that do not get effected by diminishing returns
while i can understand why this was done from a coding/purely testing standpoint, it feels like certain add ons that do apply hefty effects are ignored on occasion and weak add ons that modify a base kit killer value are far more useless. it doesnt really combat stacking, it just makes things clunky and weird right now. its feels like the system was half done and everyone realized the ptb was next week and they didnt have any way to make the game feel better besides uh, this.
2 -
I think this is a good change. There are some things I would note for future iterations:
— needs to be followed up with status effect reducer perks included — Vigil, ghost notes, etc.
— needs to include skill check bonuses
— selection of survivor and killer perks buffed. Sloppy butcher and self-care for example.
(Iron Will preventing Plague cough noises would be great)
Thanks for your hard work!
-2 -
this is an extremely well thought out response, thank you!
-10 -
The Diminishing Returns system has unfortunately been implemented in a way that is unclear and difficult to understand—primarily for new players, but also for experienced ones.
Let’s start with the fact that not every Dead by Daylight player follows or reads the latest patch notes. I also suspect that a large portion of the player base does not watch the Community Stream. For such players, the only way to learn about the new system is by hovering over the small “i” icon while selecting perks, and then clicking “more info,” which redirects them to a tutorial containing additional information.
And this is where I have a major issue. In my opinion, the information provided in that tutorial is incomplete and, rather than fully explaining the system, it raises additional questions and doubts.
During the Community Stream, it was stated that the strongest perk in a given category currently has 100% effectiveness, the next one 50%, then 25%, and so on. This information is missing from the tutorial, even though it is extremely important—it can determine whether a player decides to include another perk from the same category in their build or not. Percentages matter.
Another issue: which exact attributes are affected by the Diminishing Returns system? During the Community Stream, five were mentioned: Heal, Repair, Gen Regression, Haste, and Hindered. This information should also be included in the tutorial. Are only these five attributes affected by the system, or are there others as well?
What about Recovery speed? If I use No Mither together with Unbreakable, does No Mither get affected by this system or not? Or what about perks that increase vault speed, such as Resilience and Finesse? Does unhook speed also fall under this system? And Luck?
I strongly urge that the tutorial also clearly specifies which exact values are affected by this new system.
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A feed back from the best Clown in the world on this topic:
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Resi and Finesse don't stack in real gameplay, but I'll check on Bam and Dark Arrogance still stacking later today.
0 -
Couldn"t agree more
-6 -
'Further down the line' isn't that good of a deal when your average pipeline extends over a span of multiple years.
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I just found out that basekit haste certain killers have, unlike add ons, are not an exception from this system. If items are unaffected I absolutely feel like these should be too.
4 -
I think this system needs a bit more work and testing before hitting live servers.
There seems to be quite a few issues overlooked - basekit BT being hit with diminishing returns, getting hit with diminishing returns based on what your teammates are running when you have no control of their load out, killer and survivor perks impacting eachothers diminishing returns are just a few to name from feedback on these forums.
BHVR has a history of being frustratingly slow when it comes to fixes and adjustments. This new system already has multiple issues players have discovered in just the first day of the PTB that should be addressed and based on past experience a "we'll fix it later" response is not reassuring at all. I think BHVR should hold back releasing diminishing returns and take the time to address the issues and concerns people have brought up from this PTB. Once those have been addressed have the updated version in a later PTB instead of releasing the system as is and making players deal with it until the devs finally find time to address the problems with the system.
3 -
I really. really like the diminishing returns and I really hope it makes it to live. I feel like in the live game a lot of stuff can be stacked to be so incredibly high or fast that it's honestly too much. This feels like a good way to make sure perks can still be used together, but they just won't be as strong. I do hope that we'll some perks changes soon, because now we have no idea what kind of perks changes we can inspect with these changes.
-5 -
I'm gonna be honest it's nearly impossible to tell but I do believe vault speed is effected by this change. PTB vault seems to take about 1.5 seconds while the live vault is about 1 second. Without having Michael on PTB I can't test if this is combined with his base vault speed buff so I'm using Ghostface instead, enjoy
0 -
Yea the more I play the more I question the need for diminishing returns. Most perks that stack don't stack so badly that nerfing stacking perks across the board is a good solution. If this is supposed to be targeting specific combos, why not address those perks on a case by case basis?
I feel like this not only will stifle creativity and variance in builds, it also doesn't really do anything to fix how stupid the meta is, seeing as the top used perks don't stack stats, they compliment each other (Finesse/Lithe, Pain Res/Surge, Lethal/Corrupt, etc).
I hope that the devs are willing to reconsider, as this change will reinforce people using only meta perks, which is like, the opposite of what a healthy update should do.
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They said they wanted to bring specialized builds more in line with generalized builds, but the two cannot compare. A person with a specialized build with 4 healing perks will make a heal happen in 4 seconds. That's the end of it.
Someone with a generalized build with Resurgence, We'll Make It, Sprint Burst and Decisive Strike will make a heal happen in 8, which isn't much different, be able to get healed in 4 seconds too, and also create massive distance from the killer in every chase plus be protected upon unhook from tunneling. So why in the world are we nerfing the specialized build when the actual problem is the general build?
I do not want to run a build that can do everything, I want to find the niche stuff that I like and try absurd combos. Everyone saying haste stacking is a problem don't have any idea what they are talking about. Sure, when the haste stacking is easy to trigger like when they buffed Clown or when Hope and MFT were a thing then it is a problem. Those things were handled by specifically nerfing those perks and add-ons to a reasonable level. Still no one can say stacking 4 haste perks as a survivor is meta or that you see it being "abused" because firstly you never see it at all and secondly because it is hardly abusable since it is hard to pull off and even if you do, you probably don't care much about winning the game since you are wasting your time. You never see it happen. Who was ever mad at a Legion running NOED, Batteries Included, PWYF and Machine Learning with the BFF add-on? It is not only hard to make it work, but insanely fun to see too. And you also never see it.
It is a rare niche out of the meta, please let us have it. Some of us just want to make fun and silly combos with our perks and trying to make them work, it is what makes this game bearable sometimes amidst the toxicity and competitiveness of some of the playerbase and it will be a massive loss to build creativity.
On another note, Fast Track is strong and it needed the nerf because it is insanely easy to get value out of and if everyone runs it, it becomes absurd. The Specialist perk from Lara does the same thing but you actually have to earn it by searching on chests, and it decreases in effectiveness the more people that have it because there is a limited number of chests. It's kinda the same thing as with Inner Strength, it is really strong but if everyone runs it, it is much weaker since there are only 5 totems to cleanse. Maybe creating more perks that have this built-in diminishing return while nerfing the very strong meta perks will make the community happier. No one likes to go against full slowdowns, 4 Sprint Bursts with Vigil or a full hex build with Thrill Of The Hunt, we need less of that and more niche, not the opposite, thank you.
P.S. As I said before in this same post, there is always going to be a perk stronger or easier to use than another and that one will be favored by the players and become the meta. No amount of balancing can change that. If you buff Empathic Connection then Botany will become less valuable and so on. By removing or weakening synergies/stacking you are just sending the weaker perks of each category to the dumpster were they will be forgotten. A lot of players like me love experimenting and finding cool synergies and having that one in twenty matches were our build worked to perfection because the stars aligned. It is what gives soul to the game, not having to play the same way every time.
Behaviour also doesn't have a good history of being quick with their changes. Skull Merchant still needs her long awaited rework. I'm still waiting for you to make the Styptic Agent even remotely useful again even though it was stated in the patch notes where you changed it that you will monitor how it performs and adjust it. People gave feedback that the add-on, despite being a purple add-on, was actually worse than a brown one and the Styptic Agent still remains useless to this day and a waste of bloodpoints in the bloodweb. It gives 15% more efficiency when healing yourself. You can basically slap on brown Bandages and still have more of the medkit left by the end of the self-heal. Make it make sense. Fog vials remained useless for more than half a year and even now they are not great. Hell, we even have the fog offerings since I can remember and you could've done something with them in all these years yet they remain bloating our inventories. I don't know maybe they can actually add fog to the maps kinda like how some maps like Greenville are more naturally foggy but instead they just create black fart clouds around the map. They could be so cool yet they do nothing of interest. I'm going off the rails, anyway…
How can we trust that you will actually buff stuff after these changes when you have shown us time and time again that you probably won't or that you will take months or years?
Post edited by Wihris on5 -
Overall this is a good start and needed for the future of DBD and could lead to much better perk balancing down the line but could use a few small tweaks:
#1.) Balancing wise it needs to be expanded to include: bonus progress from a skill check (EX: stakeout, hyperfocus, etc.), status effect recovery speed (EX: vigil and ghost notes), and multiple survivors using the same perk (EX: multiple people running fast track or vigil) as well as increasing the 5th value and up to be 6.25% for the sake of consistency.
#2.) Some QoL such as: rounding the visual percentages of things like haste to the nearest whole number for easier readability and understanding (EX: if the true value of haste is 19.875% it should function as so but read as 20% on the indicator) and add the ability to see the value of perks at each level of diminishment under the extra info tab.
-3 -
This change is only going to lead to less build diversity-not more. Why would I take botany and desperate measures now when I'll get way less value off of DM, might as well slot in an exhaustion or a gen perk instead of desperate measures. This leads to everyone running more meta builds since the specialised ones are all nerfed, and everyone will just pick the strongest perk of each category, even if they buff perks, because theres no point picking the lesser one when it barely adds anything.
It sucks how anyone running DH, DS, Deli, and UB is 0% affected by this, yet someone running botany+empathic connection+desperate measures has their build massively reduced in efficiency
Or on the killer side- those running pain res, lethal, BBQ, and grim embrace are not affected at all, yet someone running bamboozle+dark arrogance+superior anatomy is
The thing with specialised builds is that you trade other areas to be super good in one area, and its usually an off-meta, gimmicky, or fun build, rather than something you put on to sweat and win every time with. Why are players who want to have fun punished and forced to run the same meta perks as everyone else?
It’s also weird how the devs seem to think that players need perks to be good at chases or generators- as they said on stream "who will loop the killer if everyone brings a gen build?" as though survivors can't loop at all without any chase perks equipped
I run healing builds yet still do a fine job of looping the killer most of the time, same for many of the survivors I see without chase builds. Nerfing my fun perks isn't going to make me run meta chase perks, because that's simply not fun for me.
If the devs feel they can't make strong perks because of the risk of stacking making them OP, theres a simple fix- just make those specific perks unable to stack, and override any other similar perks.
I really hope the devs reconsider this change, its awful in many ways, and hurts non meta players which should never be the case. If they want to promote build diversity, this isn't it.5 -
If the devs feel they can't make strong perks because of the risk of stacking making them OP, theres a simple fix- just make those specific perks unable to stack, and override any other similar perks.
That would make it even worse. Instead of We'll Make It + Botany being 100% plus 25% (half of Botany's original value), you'll just get 100% plus 0 from Botany. Then there'd really be no reason to bring Botany. I would say just make it so that these action speeds can't be stacked or reduced beyond a certain value (say no more than 150% increased or reduced value). But even that doesn't sound great, and will destroy specific builds. I personally think the entire system should be scrapped, because I agree with you and everyone else that it'll just destroy build diversity.
2 -
Exclude killer powers from diminishing returns. Having a basekit nerf to your power for running a single perk isnt good design. It limits killer design and requires you to have to keep rebalancing the powers based on perks which is hugely unnecessary and makes it harder to work on killers when there is external perk variables that have a huge impact on their performance. If items are not affected then neither should killer powers be.
The system should only be perk based balancing as it makes far more sense to keep adjusting them individually than having to adjust or take into account constant necessary changes to killer powers and items and their add ons.
-3 -
That would make it even worse.I think when @PinkPanther says 'specific perks' they mean that if (as an example) BHVR thinks Hope + MFT is too game breaking, just make it so those two perks can't ever work together. They could even set it up so that if a player selects two excluded perks a strikethrough and tooltip appear saying the perks can't be combined.
Not perks can never be combined, but rare situational exclusions.
I'm not sure if there's anything that meets that criteria, this would put slightly more work on BHVR's design team as I'm sure there would be countless calls to ban combos on both sides (which is why they would need to make clear that it would only be used in extreme situations), but it wouldn't destroy build diversity in the way they are currently planning.
Edit to Add: I feel weird that so many of these discussions are 'BHVR, the following would be a bad idea, but not as bad of an idea as what you are planning'.
6 -
i genuinely think the way this idea has been constructed really doesn't work imo. the percentage dropoff is way too steep, and i feel like ultimately it's just removing build diversity from the game. it also doesn't acknowledge that with only 4 perk slots, running a full healing build already has a cost: you're not running anything that will help with gen progression, or what will help you in chase. as killer, if you run a full haste perk, you're sacrificing gen regression and aura reading for example.
this change not only kills a bunch of perks that only worked because of the way they synergized with others (for example overzealous) but also does nothing to make people not run meta builds. it actually imo will make meta builds more likely, as it gives people zero incentive to run anything else: if i can't run a specialized healing or totem cleansing build, sure, i'll run dead hard and decisive like everyone else.
in conclusion, i think this concept needs a lot more work before it's even considered as a possibility for going live.
3 -
On paper I like the idea of diminishing returns. However in practice, two major issues stand out to me.
1. As presented on the PTB, the diminishing returns mechanic does not affect skill check based perks. This means it has no affect on Stake-Out + Hyperfocus and does nothing to address the problematic Stake-Out/Hyperfocus/Deja Vu combo. Please find a way to let this system also include skill-check based perks.
2. In my opinion, diminishing returns should not affect killer powers at all. As it stands for any killer that gains haste or applies hindered as part of their basekit, they unnecessarily are affected by this mechanic. To the best of my knowledge this means Clown, Skull Merchant, Freddy, Knight, and even Trapper (to a lesser extent) suffer from this. Heck, I think even Houndmaster and Nemesis take a hit with this issue, and likely more killers I'm missing, none of which are the most top tier or even problematic at this point. [Edit] I believe the mechanic also hits vaulting and break speeds, and if so, that also hits Myers in Pursuer/Evil Incarnate. Again, why make this affect their basekit?
Fix those two issues, and I'm fully on board for diminishing returns.-3 -
the system is nice it's step in the right direction to a better perk balance and to finally buff some perks with out the fear of them stacking with already problematic perks and maybe finally nerfing some of them and also maybe doing something about the more pallets that are on the maps now that you have added a good and health nerf to blight but the system has a little problem in it it's not a big problem
but there are some things that where not added to the system like perks that get rid of status effects like vigil and ghost notes they get rid of the exhaustion status a lot quicker when paired together and also vigil just makes status effect hinder useless, now that would not be a problem but some killers power rely on the hinder like freddy, clown, houndmaster, and skull merchant so one make it so vigil only gets rid of the exhaustion status and not the other status effects and nerf the numbers of how fast you get rid of it from 66% to 44% or 33% and add the getting rid of status effects quicker combos to the system.
now another thing that was not on the system was the skill check perks like why are they not on the system like hyper forces and stake out combo is already been running around a lot and none of the skill check perks or BNP/brand new part cause BNP counts as a great skill check for some reason cause why wouldn't so you can pair BNP, hyper forces and stake out all together so why have none of those been added to the system I don't know you tell me like things like that need to added to the system as well
so these are the things you NEED to add to the system as well and then you can finally start nerfing some problematic perks and start buffing some perks that need a buff without the fear of them staking and them becoming problematic.
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Finally leaving a long comment on my thoughts on the matter.
I don't think diminishing returns is good for the game. It fails at the major thing it's attempting to fix, which is diversifying builds, while also harming some of the lower tier killers for no reason. You can see the harm it does to Clown all over this thread and in videos by Arinad and other Clown mains, and I've obviously gone to bat for the Shape and the Nightmare before in the past, so it should come to no surprise that I'm not a fan of changes that effect the base kit of some of the most beloved killers in the game.
When it comes to diversification, it should not come in a format of forcing players to have to play one specific way. Players who want to play efficiently already do so - healing builds already have diminishing returns built into them after 200% (which is usually We'll Make It + CoH or We'll Make It + Do No Harm on a death hook survivor), I know this because I run this build myself and there is very little benefit to running Botany in the first place once you get Orela's perks unlocked; and gen builds typically combine Deja Vu, Stake Out, Hyperfocus, and a fourth perk of choice, current meta dictates Fast Track for solo queue, while SWFs can benefit heavily from having one player run 1234 and another run Bardic Inspiration to get absurdly fast gen times. The gen build, which, mind you, is one of the major thing most killer players have been complaining about for years and has only gotten better with every patch, is completely unaffected by the changes to perk stacking due to the fact that skill check chances and great skill check bonus percent is not included in the list, despite the fact that there are multiple unstated points on the list such as unhook speed, totem cleansing, pallet breaking and vault speed.
All this does for the healing build that causes issues is that it opens up slots for gen perks such as the two big problem perks, and the gen build can drop the fourth perk, burn the toolbox on a non-highlighted gen, and run We'll Make It instead to make them all around efficient. Notice that this makes both builds functionally identical - heal builds now can safely run We'll Make It, Deja Vu, Stake Out, and Hyperfocus, and gen builds can now run We'll Make It, Deja Vu, Stake Out, and Hyperfocus!
This also doesn't touch upon the actual tightly woven setup for killer perks that can barely be diversified; my Shape build closely resembles my Hillbilly build, which resembles one of my Cenobite builds, and both of my Cenobite builds look exactly like my Dark Lord and Ghostface builds - the major through line for all of these is that the shared build for all killers is a gen regression build, which prioritizes a few perks and allows for minor flexibility for certain killers: Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance, Turn Back the Clock/Pop Goes the Weasel for F2P players, Dead Man's Switch, and a toss up between Corrupt Intervention (trap killers/stealth killers, allowing for setup), Surge (M1 killers/Ghoul), Thrilling Tremors (if you don't use the other two but need information more than anything), or Deadlock (F2P players who don't need Corrupt). This is a total of eight perks. Eight! None of which are effected by the diminishing returns changes, but all of which make killer players feel considerably more secure in their chances of winning when being faced with the threat of all players running the same incredibly fast generator focused builds. This will completely eliminate any non-regression builds on lower tier killers, and high tier killers are already aware of how to best use their efficiency to the limits of the game itself.
Finally, this also directly harms BHVR's actual monetary bottom line - why am I buying licensed killers who have perks I could use if I cannot use them to full effectiveness? This is a similar discussion to the TBTC vs PGTW or WoO vs FMA discussions, where one pretty much directly powercreeps another, but why would I ever buy characters like Yoichi Asakawa, who is one of the hardest to use characters in the game due to his higher than average injury noise level, larger frame, and bright yellow coat, if the perks he's coming with are not directly better than Orela Rose's? Why would I buy Trevor Belmont if I don't want to play him, when the only time he could have a perk that could have any type of use is if I'm running a flashlight build, which is ineffective and difficult to pull off as a newer player? Why would I ever buy Cheryl Mason if Thalita Lyra is free and has the exact same perk I want to buy Cheryl for? There is no reason to buy chapters that are not the RE 2 chapter bundle, SAW, or Stranger Things if you are not a chase player, and even then, chase players have a majority of those perks available for free with enough grinding.
I won't speak on exhaustion and Vigil/Ghost Notes being effected by diminishing returns due to the fact that Ghost Notes should not be a perk that exists in the current game state, and I will be repeating the same thing stated over and over again about how Vigil harms lower tier killers more than it does higher tier killers (this sounds familiar xdd). Further discussion on debuff removal should be a entirely different conversation taking place in the dev team, and should have been a discussion occurring as early as the Hemo/Mangled changes.
tl;dr: i would suggest reworking this idea as well and having a long and theraputic discussion about how to slow the game down for both sides without eliminating perk diversity
remember that downvoting does not subsitute making a argument against this post /comehere7 -
Things like the 3000% Clown Haste build are wickedly not okay to play against, I disagree with this entirely.
Also, items are affected by the system?
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I understand and agree with the need to introduce this system, but it will remove some of the fun and unpredictability in the game. While not practical, sometimes a silly survivor haste build is fun to run and see what you can get out of it. Same for healing builds when you just want to go around healing everyone.
It is unclear, however, which values will be affected (for example, recovery speed?). I think part of the solution would be to display the calculation when making the build on the loadout screen, so you know in general how it will affect your build if taken standalone.
And while diminishing returns is the technical name, maybe a more player-friendly name will help with understanding. Like "Stacking debuff" or similar.
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Here is my post that I made on this forum regarding the Diminishing Return changes and how they specifically affect Clown:
I'm a Clown main who is involved in the general Clown main community of DBD. We are very dissatisfied with the way the diminishing returns interacts with our killer's power for the following reasons:
1. Reduced perk variety: essentially any perk that gives haste is not worth running anymore on the Clown, which limits our build variety. Instead of being allowed to use fun haste perks, we are being funneled into aura, slowdown, or utility perks. We could of course theoretically use the haste perks still, but most of them will be worse than an addon slot for Cheap Gin Bottle.2. Reduced addon variety: if we cannot run haste perks but still want to increase the value of our speed differential as Clowns, we will be forced into running the two addons that increase the basekit invigoration haste (Cheap Gin Bottle and Sticky Soda Bottle). Previously, we could run Rapid Brutality for 5% extra haste alongside two other addons such as Middle Finger, Thick Cork Stopper, Garish Makeup Kit, Starling Feather, etc. Going forward, if we still want to achieve that reliable +5% haste, we now need to run Cheap Gin Bottle and Sticky Soda Bottle, which will effectively make our chase power weaker when we can't justify the opportunity cost of other addons.
3. Possible future nerfs to addons: if the usage rates of Sticky Soda Bottle and Cheap Gin Bottle skyrocket for the above reason, it is reasonable to expect that the balance team will nerf these addons and buff the subpar addons. This seems to be a common trend among killers like Unknown and Demogorgon who have standout addons.
4. Overall, it's a nerf to the Clown: Clown isn't exactly a stellar killer that keeps up with the modern state of the game. The fact that his chase power now can only be supported by addons just makes it worse, and will lead to a rise in camping, tunneling, and "dirtier" playstyles as dedicated Clowns now have to struggle even harder to match survivor strength.
I know this also affects killers like Trapper and Knight who have basekit haste, but this update seems to specifically harm Clown and Skull Merchant who frequently use their haste and hinder in chase. I also fail to see how this will "shake up" the meta of the game, as it seems to me this will just encourage survivors to run more antitunnel, antislug, and exhaustion perks. My proposed solution is to either make the effects of Clown and Skull Merchant's power affect their base movement speed or to make an exemption to allow one perk to stack with their power as previously. I personally agree that running four haste perks on Clown was unhealthy for the game, but running either Rapid Brutality, Play With Your Food, Batteries Included, Furtive Chase, Agitation, NOED, etc. have all been part of the Clown's playstyle for as long as these perks have been around. Please don't nerf the Clown and consider what I've mentioned above.
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Cool, and i disagree with you. Killer powers should work and provide their value consistently, period, its a fundamental design failure otherwise, see my post again as too why. Stacking is still reduced where it actually matters, on perks. The killer powers are not the problem. They dont need to have a built in nerf to them and will inevitably push people away from those killers when further changes keep altering things negatively. But sure give more people reasons to run killers not affected by this BS, more blight, ghoul, nurse etc that arent being unnecessarily artificially nerfed for no reason.
If its going to affect killer powers the whole thing should be scrapped as BHVR are once again blind to the issues and mess caused.
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I also think racecar Clown is ass to play against and have openly stated I hate Clown. I also think that diminishing returns should not effect killer powers because they explicitly stated that addons are not effected, so that should extend to the entire kit of the killer, especially when some killers have their entire kit countered by one perk.
Ignore that I play the Shape, the Brutal Strength is not in the room with us xdd0 -
healing builds already have diminishing returns built into them after 200%Interesting note, every percent has declining returns (which just makes their idea of putting in diminishing returns for healing even more absurd)
If you were able to somehow get +1% healing speed (1.01 charges), it would save 0.1585 seconds on a full heal. If you got +2% healing speed speed it would save 0.3137 seconds on a full heal, that second percent saved 0.1552 seconds, its dropped by 0.033 seconds.
This is why Botany (50%) saves 5.333 seconds, getting 50% more with We'll Make It saves 8 (edit for clarity: running We'll Make It instead of Botany, not both), that second 50% gains only 2.667 seconds.
Slowing down healing works in reverse, every percent is slightly more impactful than the prior percent.
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