http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why no Ghoul Nerfs???
Comments
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Yeah I agree.
It honestly doesn’t make sense at this point. The Blight gets toned down because he’s too strong, but The Ghoul just gets ignored when people have been complaining about him for ages.
He already has strong chase and pressure, so keeping him at 4.6 just feels like overkill. Dropping him to 4.4 is not some extreme nerf, it’s the bare minimum to make him feel fair.
And the worst part is the feedback is clearly there, it’s just not being acknowledged. For solo queue especially, it just feels like you’re expected to deal with it while nothing changes.
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It's acknowledged, we get official responses but its always telling us they arent doing anything YET, yet are aware, so it's like all the more frustrating because it feels like another wait years before this is dealt with.
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you do realise this included when she was op on release right ?
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They have done a lot of things, I agree a few more things can be changed to make him even more fair but some of the changes you're suggesting will just make him awful.
Here are my suggested changes, tell me if you agree.
-Remove the vault, or at least nerf it and it no longer triggers perks like dissolution.
-Make the bite range = lunge range, both survivor and killer can move during this animation at a low speed.
-Rework centipede and yamaori (I think?) mask entirely.
-Brutal strength removes an extra charge of the power (don't think they would ever add specific changes like this, but it would be nice)
No nerfs for bodyblocking gameplay, it's the highest skill expression for the killer and it has clear counterplay. I have no problems with a few more nerfs if they don't affect this playstyle.
If you want to make him 4.4, you would need to make his CD a lot shorter so that he can use his power on every loop, like blight. It might be fun tbh, but it's another can of worms. It would give him even more mobility.
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for me I feel like my main gripe is around the first hit, like how far he can pull himself to you and then you have to deal with that crap animation lock, if it was he had to land right by you and then "grab" I feel it would feel better, not this latch onto a nearby wall and grab from across the loop.
Like wesker where he has to dash onto you to hurt you then it'd be okay. Though even with the changes how awful the first "hit" feels, if it was like he has his mobility but needs to be close to get both hits I'd not care as much.
like the first hit into dissolution and blood favor etc is what makes it such an eyeroll to face.3 -
Lol, no. The main reason I have trouble hitting survivors with Nurse is because survivors can break line of sight from Nurse and actually dodge her blinks. If you think Nurse just gets easier hits than Ghoul as a whole, then you havent played Ghoul enough.
And yeah, also ignore all the comments made where Ghoul starts being worse than Nurse once 3 survivors are on comms.
Nurse against 4 randoms is worse than Ghoul against 4 randoms. Comms is a MASSIVE weakness to Ghoul, while comms is a huge benefit for Nurse because she can quite easily predict what the comms are. If a survivor suddenly goes in a direction they logically wouldnt, odds are that they are trying to take her away from something. Where with Ghoul, pathing doesnt matter too much, you always go to the area where Ghoul has the least benefit.
So yes, if you do the following:
1. Ban perks that survivors need to face a Nurse, but have a similar effect on Blight, Spirit and Ghoul
2. Guarantee survivors know which killer they are facing ahead of time
3. Guarantee survivors are a 4-man squad, on comms
Yeah, Nurse would be better than every other killer. But in regular DBD, where you have no bans on anything, no guarantee if survivors have comms or not, no info on who the killer will be. Ghoul absolutely is better.
Just as a comparison. That's like saying you're playing hide and seek, but the seeker gets updates on the spot of hiders, and the hiders get walkie talkies to communicate where the seeker is so they can find a new spot. You're playing an entirely different game of hide and seek at that point. That's the difference between live servers and custom tournaments. You dont get to make ANY points based on tournament balancing vs live servers, because they are different environments all together.
Ghoul is stronger than Nurse on the live servers, because there is no comms, and survivors dont know when they will face one.3 -
So true
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I think if Ghoul players are so adamant of keeping him 4.6 then his grab attack has to be nerfed in some sort of way like making him a bit more like nemesis where he has to Kagune mark people first before he can Injure and empower with a grab attack.
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Thank you for mentioning the animation. I think is an overlooked issue. I have been hit by perfectly unavoidable Blight rushes or by Dracula perfectly pouncing around corners etc and Nurse blinking directly behind me and grabbing me from a gen (even though I had let go from the button!). All of these feel unavoidable, but they feel unavoidable by the circumstances or the skill of the player. With ghoul the animation feels like the game forces you into this unavoidable circumstance.
In a nutshell this part of Kanekis power is comparable to a projectile. But when huntress throws her axe halfway through the map and you happen to step into it's path, you feel like "damn I didn't see this coming" or damn that player is good" With Kaneki it feeels as if the game would held you in place, so the huntress can hit you.
In my opinion even if Kaneki was fully balanced, this would still frustrate people a lot.5 -
The only way we could know for certain is if they dropped average chase times for killers at high MMR, but it just doesn't make any logical sense to me that a good Nurse would have a harder time than a good Ghoul at getting hits, when Nurse can literally guarantee getting hits, that's her greatest strength.
Once she's like 15 meters away, she can blink near you and guarantee the second hit, the only way she doesn't get it is if she misplays.
The best counterplay against a good nurse is just delay line of sight, run as far away as you can and go edge map so that she takes a long time getting back to objectives. It's a matter of how much time you can waste before she closes the distance and guarantees a hit.
There's never a guarantee the Ghoul is going to 100% hit you after the bite. That's what separates Nurse and Blight from Ghoul and all the killers in A tier, killers in the A tier like Billy will ocasionally end chases even quicker than Nurse would, but they can also starve and never get the down, with Nurse it's a matter of time.
I don't get why you think Ghoul gets massively countered by comms, yes you can call out where he's going and what he's doing but the best Ghoul players slingshot so fast across the map that comms end up making a very small difference.
Nurse gets countered pretty heavily by comms as well, since pre-running is so important against her to delay getting to that guaranteed hit distance, and planning where to go down so that you waste her as much time as possible.
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Nurse can only guarantee hits when she has line of sight/aura. Ghoul can pretty much guarantee hits by being 115% right after a less than 2 second cooldown (can cancel mid-air, slide takes 0.8 seconds, roughly leaving 0.5 seconds for survivors to react).
So overall, Ghoul is more effective there, Ghoul can also traverse the map more quickly, and with survivors not having comms, its impossible to warn teammates where Ghoul is going, while also impossible for other teammates to communicate that Ghoul is about to chase them. Where with Nurse, if you hear blinking directly after a hook, you can be quite sure she either saw someone, or has aura reading.
Then you also have the fact that against a Nurse, you cant bypass or wait out basekit BT easily, because survivors will gain a lot of distance due to that 10%, while with Ghoul, that's not too big of a problem if there is no comms, because you know no one is coming to tank a hit anyway. And while the same is true for Nurse, its quite easy to break line of sight after an unhook.
And Ghoul gets massively countered by comms compared to Nurse, because survivors can get in the way, where Nurse can blink through them. Bodyblocking is EXTREMELY effective against Ghoul, and coordinated bodyblocking only really works on comms. Otherwise its literally trying to guess what your teammates are thinking, and hoping they get it correct.
Like, if were talking tournament vs live servers, the argument for balance shifts a lot. I dont think Grim Embrace is healthy on mobility killers in live servers, but I also dont think Grim Embrace is even viable in tournaments because its rare getting everyone hooked once. I dont think Pain Res or Turn Back The Clock are healthy gen regression perks, because they dont require you to interact with the generator at all. Its basically free regression(hooking a survivor is part of the natural gameplay loop, anything attached to hooking a survivor is effectively free, same reason why Flashbang and Blastmine are effectively free, which, IMO also have issues) and I feel like they either need pre-requisite interaction, or not explode the gen if a single survivor is working on them. In the same reasoning, Commodius needs a nerf. Commodius is pretty much the single item in the entire game that forces gen regression to be as punishing as it is today.
But in tournaments, most killers wont be able to delay long enough without pain res.
I, in general, feel like custom games should be upgraded where you can actively tweak the numbers on perks and addons. Then tournaments can tweak everything to balance for the tournament. The main reason they shouldnt, ofcourse, is that hackers would be able to use the custom game settings and bring them over to live servers. But it would forever be able to balance tournaments.-2 -
He is theoretically weaker against the strongest survivors, yes. Survivors who are able to do callouts on where he is going. Survivors who can be called in to tank a hit while bodyblocking ghoul in a narrow path, like the doorway in killer shack, while 2 other survivors sit on seperate gens.
But in soloq? I can quite easily make a good Nurse take a while to get a down, yet, all a Ghoul needs is 1 tile without a decent window or pallet. Then doesnt even need info in BBQ because he has an addon for that. Ghoul needs teamwork to counter longterm. Nurse requires survivors having a good 1v1 sense against her.
Like, I can objectively outplay a Ghoul, and still get injured, because he gets 5 seconds to still injure with his ability. I can objectively outplay a Nurse, and she will need to wait to have 2 charges again to even get close enough for a second hit. And while a lot of Nurses rely on the 30% increased lunge after a blink nowadays, the main reason that damages is due to blink desync (where a Nurse hits you before she even appears on your screen, which is fixable by giving a 0.5 second delay in her attack after a blink, like we used to have). But Ghoul can launch towards you, cancel his ability mid-air to get the 2 second recovery started, slide against you for 0.8 seconds to effectively have 1.2 seconds passing before survivors are able to start running away from you, and then you have effectively 0.5 seconds to vault a window or pallet so he doesnt get a hit on you.
If Ghoul didnt get those 5 seconds, but 2 just like Wesker gets. Or if Ghoul didnt have 0.5 seconds reaction time, but start the attack recovery after the sliding has finished, I wouldnt be here complaining about Ghoul. Those are by far my biggest 2 issues with why Ghoul is too strong against soloq, and unfun to play against. The 3rd big issue is that mending doesnt instantly remove the mark, when it absolutely should. You decided to leave, the risk is losing your power within the next 8 seconds.
SWF is a different story, but considering close to 100% of games contain at least 1 soloq player, and easily 80% of games contain at least 2, the soloq argument has priority.
I wouldnt mind if Ghoul got the ability to down survivors with his m2, if it meant he didnt get 5 seconds to land a free hit in the first place.0 -
There are two reasons there are no meaningful Ghoul nerfs:
1: Ghoul is fundamentally poorly designed. A killer that injures you for free from a distance AND has great mobility is inherently unfair. They can't meaningfully nerf him without a total resdesign.
2: Survivors are currently the strongest they've been since at least 2019. The vast majority of killers are not viable and feel absolutely miserable to play. Ghoul provides people who do not have 20k hours in the game with the possibility of winning. Take that away and half the killer playerbase leaves permanently.
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Ghoul isnt theoreticaly weaker against good survivors but he is actualy weaker against good survivors b ecause they know how to loop and being injured doesnt bothers them like the bottom weaker 50% of other survivors, nurse has counter to but good nurse against good survivors has higher chance to win and less trouble compare to ghoul in this state in which ghoul now is that his vault got nerfed.
Soloq is worse only because of lack of shared information like call outs on killers location,traps or being able to create strategies like going for save in endgame where they dont act like each survivor by himself and hope they will have good teamwork but they tell each other this is what makes swf so good compare to soloq nothing else because even in soloq you can have very good players but skill isnt something swf has and soloq hasnt its thing that isnt dependent and each individual has different skill so only thing swf has better is teamwork and info.
Ghou has easier first hit but than he has to play bit normaly as m1 untill his dashes charge and than depends where you run him because you talk about bad loops and he gets you do you know how many killers can do than and even better than ghoul like clown will get you on loops way better than ghoul or slinger that can hit his shots so this isnt ghouls speciality to be good on weaker loops. Nurse is different story she can get hit slower maybe depending on map and her skill in reading survivors whereabout but than her chase is way more oppressive compare to ghouls thats like comparing being chased by guy with chainsaw compare to being chased by guy with handgun.
Ghoul can slide into you but he cant do it with sharp turns so if you do sharp turn or run around something round his slide speed wont allow him to turn than much and even if he cancels if he wasnt in you all the time which means you ran straight or very easily for him to do it he ahs still some time delay where you get few meters like 5+ and if theres some pallet you can still get out from that danger.
Fun isnt something balance wise its just your subjective feeling because there exist people that have opposite fun when facing the ghoul compare to you so this issue is irrelavent and killers like trickster,clown are hated too or skullmerchant but that isnt something killer shoul be balanced around because of how subjective it is.
Soloq lacks info and will untill they get compleate wallhacks on majority of things or some talk to other option thats it. Many killers just like this every killer is better against soloq compare to swf some more some less like swf totaly counters by its existence if they have coms trap killers and stealth killers but soloq doesnt.
Idk how will devs balance ghoul if they nuke him as they usualy do or take away some parts of his power how they did till now Idk but I dont think ghoul is biggest problem this game has and shouldnt be main course on balance team menu, he was looked at more than any s-tier in last 3 years or some killers 5 years so I think there is time for others and more problematic things like cheaters that can freely play without any hinder or threat etc.
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To my grave I'll keep wondering why everytime I bring this kind of subject I get downvoted a lot and my topic falls into oblivion, whilst when someone else does, it even gets the community manager attention.
Guess that's a question for the philosophers.
I wish I could say that making all this ruckus will get us somewhere (aside from potentially getting banned), but unfortunately It's not how I feel. They have a team of "consultant-players" right now. Best we can do is cross fingers that the consultants will actually put DbD on tracks again.
The way I see it now, some Killers are way too mobile while others struggle a lot and usually end up with max 2 kills (if lucky), if its not against a winstreak-swf. That's the reason why most main Blights are actually fuming with these changes. Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Oni, Billy, Kaneki, are the only ones capable of even trying against a winstreak-swf. The most fun ones, such as Knight, Chucky, etc; struggle so much that, after a while, you start feeling like sh1t.
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I think a range nerf on his bite attack would be enough, the vault is unnecessary too and it enables ######### dissolution gameplay.
Now for some "insanely difficult" ghoul counterplay.
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That first clip they just need to be running the bamboozle add on and your dead 😂
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Uhh no, the survivor was blocking the window.
That add-on should still be reworked, it's brainless.
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The Ghoul has gotten enough nerfs.
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I'm not sure about a huge nerf, but when you are looping and he bites you with a large rock in between.…its ridiculous.
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More than both s-tiers in last 4-5 years togeather and still its not enough for some people who want him to end up like skullmerchant and still complain about him than.
Its just DBD culture nothing unusual here in these 9+ years of this game exestance.
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I'm not worried about buffs or nerfs I just want them to feel like they aren't miserable to play against. I prestiged ghoul to 100 for Rize, but barely ever play them because it feels like a stomping ground and half the people you que against stand there and stare at you like you killed their pokemon. Id play them allot more if it was "just another killer" on the roster.
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Ghoul is an example of some people refusing to learn the game.
If you think he is so easy to play as - try him against somewhat competent survivors. Also, give him a go with controller or on console.
Debates like this is the reason why I refused to buy a new chapter. I'm tired of seeing somewhat interesting killer ( even with questionable perks ) being gutted to the point where it is no longer picked ( say hi to Skull Merchant, Krasue, Knight and others ) because whining and throwing tantrums still draws too much attention of devs from real problems and leads to un-needed changes instead.
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ugh you are not wrong. Its just that my heart would break for Ghoul mains if he gets Skull Merchant'd
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1. I agree with
2. I don't agree with having a super easy Killer that's easily beats even Strong survivors due to how easy their kit does all the work for them is atrocious for the games health. Look at skull merchant she was like that prior to Ghoul
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The community doesnt care how the killer Tiers compare to the survivor. S tiers are broken and need nerfs because theyre S tier.
Ghoul' gonna be the next blight and blight is still gonna be complained about because "good blights wont care about 110, nerf rushes".
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Yeah as I mentioned earlier the first bite interaction is by far the most frustrating even with the changes. Between the animation lock and the range.
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The whole community isnt all for blight nerfs there are people that create some part that dissagrees with any or current blight nerfs.
Last time the community wanted killer nerfed we got skullmerchant in f-tier which isnt good thing either.
For me current blight nerfs are ok and if there will be some second than they should look at addons not his power which will be acceptable with these changes that come.
Blight would need to take way more harsher nerfs to be worse than ghoul so I get your optimism here thinking it will happen but I dont think it will blight got smallest nerfs compare to all killers especialy strongest ones in history and there was huge part of community that wasnt happy about these nerfs even with fact he stayed s-tier and even when being weaker he still is considered by top players better than nurse.
Nurse cant be nerfed much more she is desinged all about having best power due to her slow speed so its more for rework the killer than hard nerf her.
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I think anyone who isn't speaking with spite rn toward the killer will agree they don't want him Skull Merchant treatmented (most people who say this are just really really sick of them, so like you have to take said opinions with a pinch of salt).
Me personally I just want them to be more fun to face, so like as I said the animation lock surrounding the first bite coming from a range and over rocks just feels terrible to go against. To have that much mobility is one thing, but I feel if you do with that short a CD (I don't want the CD nerfed) maybe the first bite is how to make them feel better. Not necessarily lose it just make it so he has to land near and cant do it over pallets or obstacles or from across the loop.
That way it rewards skillful play with his mobility, and feels better on the survivor side.Post edited by Rokku_Rorru on3 -
Like I believe we're being more then fair we're not trying to repeat skullmerchant. But the matter of the fact is blight has been king of dbd for 6 years in this broken state and this first round of nerfs doesn't affect good blights only bad blights who zone with 4.6 and the second round of nerfs are just gonna address his problematic add-ons like the speed addons.
After all this I believe Blight will still be top of A-Tier at the end of all this that's hardly a SM treatment I'd say.
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4.4 would make him useless, because people would run made for this and gain extra movement speed as well beside the fact that he would run slower, which would make it nearly impossible to catch a good survivor player also chaining pallets against him would be easier if he wasnt fast, im not a ghoul fun, but i think he should stay 4.6, i think his power leap range needs a slight nerf, or have a bigger cooldown with longer enrage, or simply remove the mending state for first m2.
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blight stays S tier even after the changes, thats cause his basespeed wasnt changed, bhvr couldve remove 0.2 or 0.4 of his base speed it would be great thing.
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I dont think blights speed is problem in basekit (his rush speed) especialy when he will be 110 speed when walking his addons on other hand are something else.
Remember slower killers need better powers and huntress isnt good exsample because she is leftover from past times where devs didnt have much sence in balancing game and killers like pig were nerfed into ground for no reason or their buffs were like now ghostface ones in upcoming ptb 9.6. they were very small.
110 speed killers should have powers very strong and with some skill ceiling kike it is on spirit or henry the netflix vecna.
For your ghoul post yeah longer cooldown on his leaps wouldnt kill him but it shouldnt be longer than blights or no more than 12 seconds in not enraged mode and his range should be same 14 meters or back 16.
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why no survivor nerfs?
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The only change he truly needs is holding tentacles out for 5mins, otherwise he doesn't need any other changes.
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