Slugging is out of control.

Is there currently an underlying reason for slugging? A lot of people were quoting fast track but that's been changed now.

As killer literally the only times I'll slug are if: i know my victim will struggle out thanks to a sabo play so I drop them to gain a little pressure instead, with 2 left if I'm sweating the 4k (I only ever do this for adepts, achievements or challenges) or if I down someone who's on death hook and I'm intending to spare them.

There isn't really any overriding reason that I can think of for slugging as a standard tactic unless you're playing twins. It's not particularly fun and it often backfires. Had a deathslinger who was trying for the 4 man slug on gideons yesterday. He ended up losing so many potential hooks to us reviving his slugs we ended up getting 3 out.

Who is complaining about killer queues? Last night I played a few survivor matches and then had to switch to killer because the queues were way shorter. The queue times are the same as they have always been: longer queues for killer during the daytime when there are fewer people playing SWF, and the it flips in the evening when lots of people are playing SWF.

It's really, really not. But the devs are certainly encouraging it with the way things are and have been going. Apart from one game last night the last time i had a 4 man slug game was last anniversary when a ghostface slugged us in midwich.

If you dont want to be slugged then bring anti-slug perks and adapt how you play when its being done. We've been through this before, basekit anti-slug is a god awful thing for the game and it's not needed at all. If all four survivors managed to get themselves slugged without it being a very close game then that's a team issue as you aren't playing to counter it.

I don’t think so… in fact you get all these playstyles you hate because of basekit this basekit that. Because of basekit unhooking yourself, when camped. Basekit anti tunnel so you can’t get downed after unhooking and all we naturally tend to use the best strategies against survivors like tunneling or slugging.

In the early time there where no basekit perks but you guys had to cry for your babysitter to get basekits … guess what . The killers are not your friend and we will do everything in our might to kill you.

And when it’s slugging because of two many second chance perks in game or flashlights or pallets… well get ready to get slugged and if you don’t like it, take these perks in your inventory and pay for it with a perkslot…

#nomorefreebullshitforsurvivors

Yes, its a survivor team problem if you are letting the killer slug you all, doesn't matter if its solo q or not, It's player skill and game sense. It may shock you but there are plenty of good solo q players. It falls on everyone not just one person to counter play. The killer should have to be a huge amount better than you all to reliably pull it off, which feeds back into the average survivor skill level. Once again the fact there are good survivors who don't see this as an issue is ignored to push the solo q narrative. Solo Q isnt mechanically different, solo q problems are player problems.

You don't even need a whole build, which is excessive, even just unbreakable to prevent the slug snowballing is insanely strong so you can recover, destroy the killers pressure and get a second chance. The amount of times a single person with unbreakable has turned an entire match around is insane, but you all downplay the tools you have as don't want to adjust your builds or because you want the game to play itself for you. You aren't supposed to just flat out invalidate everything a killer can do, thats not how an asym game works.

Basekit anti-slug is not needed, period. You can already just abandon the match when its deemed "problematic" and unrecoverable (2% of total games btw!!). We don't have anti-camp, we have anti face camp, they are not the same thing and that actually was a legitimate problem that had to be sorted.

its insane that the mindset is give us a second chance perk BASELINE? its insane that you would think this way, you already have sooo many options against killer esp if you have friends thats 16 perks vs 4 perks??? but you want a get out of jail free card baked into every survivor? and lets be real gens go fast enough that it would be insane to think that a full SWF could just get back up if you misplay.

You down a surv, their friend/teammate is too close why would i want to be forced to pick up when i can punish you for misplaying but instead i have to worry about baseline second lives? get out of here.

There's some problems with these.

The killer themselves? All their options to cut survivors down, from tunneling, to camping, to Slugging, are all baseline. Compared to countering them, it takes more skill and or perks and usually those perks are one offs. So those "options" come at both a cost and temporary use compared to the repeatable free "options" the killer has.

Fearing forced pick ups is reasonable, BUT when people keep Slugging for misery (ie: slug one go off to find another, repeat till everyone is down) then SOMETHING is going to give and no one is to blame but those players whom ruin everything for the rest.

And the survivor has to basically use their 4 perks just in case the killer wants to slug or tunnel which is free. Generator times aren't the problem here. Hell no one reasonable will complain much when your back is actually at the wall and you do whatever. The problem is people feel their "back against at the wall" from second one and do these things. Or just don't give a damn about others and do it cause it's free and hard to counter with a bonus of misery to the opposition.

This division and fighting is a symptom of a bigger issue and both sides are grumpy and taking it out on the other side. divided we fall…. js js

The problem is that the bigger issue is the players though. Yes both sides, but it a people problem.

As I said earlier, 2v8 is a great place to look for it. IDK why the 1v4 Anti-Slug we recieved was so overtuned, we didn't need moving while recovering, gradually increased speeds and the ability to always be able to pick yourself up.

Tying the self pick up to exhaustion or an internal CD or both could be a way to do it, like how it works in 2v8 with the class abilities. but it's all we need, it doesn't remove short term option, it just stops more extreme cases.

That way they don't need to change perks like unbreakable or tenacity drastically and it doesn't affect the core game loop too much, can just tune how long it inflicts exhaustion/cooldown.

So, at the same time that I see people complaining about the games speed, they're also defending a tactic that lets them win less than 5 minutes into a match. So a 10-15 minute match of normal gameplay is "too fast" but a four minute slugging match is perfect.

I guess speed is only a problem if you're losing.

I wasn't defending anything, I was explaining why a Killer might slug in a given scenario. It's why I've slugged Survivors in games sometimes. It's also possible to hold two different ideas in your head at once, that going for a 4-man slug at the start of the trial and leaving people to bleed out is bad for the game and also that 40-second gens are bad for the game. And neither of them is a personal failing of the players involved but rather a failure of design and balancing by the dev team.

Even without Fast Track, survivors have a lot of strong perks that activate from being unhooked or unhooking someone else. There's also the anti-camp feature and off-hook endurance effect. I mean there is a reason why survivors hate being slugged, it's because it's harder to recover from being slugged than being hooked. It's not like being on the floor is inherently any more boring than hanging from a hook, you can't play the game either way.

That being said, I don't think slugging (as in all slug, no hook) is as strong as the advocates for the playstyle claim that it is. It's very all-or-nothing, you either clean sweep or you lose hard. And it gets countered much harder by anti-slug perks and good survivor macro play. It's just really hard for uncoordinated teams to deal with.

I'm so glad BHVR pampered killers and refused to do the right thing and make the game fair for both sides.

Slugging is just worse hookstate sense you can be healed faster if you recover while downed and the killer doesnt get notified when you get healed. The things slugging prevents are the plethora of perks that are activated once unhooked like ds or shoulder the burden arguably the 2 strongest perks in the game. The next thing is survivors are to altruistic and will go in for the save way to fast I have 4ked at 5 and 4 gens because I down someone under a pallet and the whole team comes over and tries to save while I just slap them repeatedly downing them slowly because they keep trying to pallet stun or flash light save so I just run them off but they come right back. Slugging also isnt easier then hooking and you literally can do more slugged then you can hooked i have gotten out because I was slugged and the kilelr couldn't find me when I crawled to gate and left. This is 100% a skill issue for survivors not using the extra time they get from a slugged survivor then a hooked one. Survivors dont need more base kit hand holding it will just make then worse at the game.

Ya but at that point you feel like your playing against skill and not perks which alot of unhook perks feel like your not getting out played just out perked

Before I post this know that what I am posting is meant to be a nuanced explanation, not a condemnation of any of the perks I'm listing. In fact I think most of these perks are balanced or even healthy in a vacuum, except for one which I will get into.

Perks which survivors benefit from when being unhooked: Resurgence, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Off the Record, Blood Rush

Perks which reward survivors for unhooking their allies: Deliverance, We'll Make It, Babysitter, Borrowed Time

Perks which benefit the survivors from being hooked: Kindred (the aura reading on the killer), Fast Track

Perks which remove killer pressure from the killer related to hooked survivors: Reassurance, Shoulder the Burden, Camaraderie, Slippery Meat (with a luck build)

Base-kit mechanics which the survivors benefit from related to hooks: Endurance, Anti-camp

Perks and mechanics which make it difficult to hook in the first place: Boil Over, Breakout, Flip Flop, Power Struggle, Saboteur, flashlights, pallet stuns, other forms of stuns (Head On, Last Stand)

I know the instinct is to go into why these perks aren't bad. Like "are you really complaining about Kindred" or "Who the hell runs Camaraderie?"

But that's not the point, the point is that if you go for an all-slug playstyle, you deny value from all of these things simultaneously. Meanwhile the perks which counter slugging are few and rarely run. Unbreakable, We're Gonna Live Forever, Boon: Exponential, and that's really about it. And there's things you can do to make it even harder to pick up slugs, like Coulrophobia.

In my honest opinion though, you could cut down on a lot of the slugging playstyle by nerfing the one perk which I think is the most problematic here: RESURGENCE.

That perk gives SO MUCH VALUE to the survivor for being unhooked.

This is such a weird swing.

First off to come after resurgence as a perk is super odd, I've literally never heard anyone complain about it before. It doesn't progress the game for survivors, all it does is mitigates the reset time from being hooked. It is a very good perk but it's hardly game breaking. An altruistic heal takes 16 seconds. With resurgence that is halved, so lets be generous if you count the time it saves both survivors for half a heal it gains the survivor team 16 seconds of total. So much value? Hardly gamebreaking, and I don't see it used all that much. Rarely see it in my killer games and I have maybe 1 swf team mate who runs it semi regularly. And it has counterplay, haemorrhage messes with it if survivors don't try to heal right on the hook. (scourge hook weeping wounds anyone?) And ironically tunneling is also a hard counter to it, healing progress doesn't do anything for you if you wind up straight in chase.

As for the rest of it. The whole objective of the game is at it's core based around 2 things. Getting generators done, and hooking. Survs need chase perks to avoid hooks, information perks to help tactical play, gen perks for achieving their main objective and hook/struggle related perks to mitigate the damage done by being hooked.

For killers to explicitly not hook to avoid giving survivors an "advantage" from hook related perks is like wrecking your car so you don't have to pay for fuel. They are deliberately avoiding their actual objective to try and deny value from perks that for the most part either aren't used much, or can be nullified by not tunneling someone straight off hook. These perks need to be in the game, you can't not give survivors perks to help them recover from or avoid being hooked.

Things like off hook endurance and anticamp are necessary because otherwise the game becomes a tunnel fest. Slugging as a response to these is a bad idea for 2 reasons.

1. Going for a 4 man slug will usually backfire unless the survivorsare absolute mugs. I played against 2 killers who tried to do this yesterday, and both times we got gens done and 3 players out. With 2 players slugged it's so easy for them to crawl apart, recover and get insta revived by the 4th player while killer chases the third. Plus you have unbreakable, which more and more people are running now.

2. Even if it does succeed, it devalues the win. If you get a 4 man slug you get less bp for hook actions and short games will not give much bp, not to mention it's super boring for both sides.

P.s. slippery meat? really? I mean if you need to quote luck builds to point to why killers are slugging that's crazy. Anyone dumb enough to run luck builds deserves the extra 4 hook states they hand the killer.

what I want to know is how they figured BHVR pampered killers?

Honestly seems crazy that people are applying that kind of logic. "Oh i won't do my main objective because some survivors might have perks that activate based on hooks" Going for a 4 man slug is always a braindead play unless survivors are equally braindead or you can insta down very quickly like bubba. To make it work really requires pretty intense consistent misplays from the survivors, doing stuff like swarming a hook or downed player.

You don't have control of the match unless you down 3 players and have the last one in chase, heck even then it is possible to finish another player's recovery midchase and have one of you get away to res the others.

As for resurgence, just because one streamer complains about something, even a high profile one like otz, doesn't mean it's broken or that community has an issue with it. The forum is a pretty good indicator of what the community at wide has issues with. You are literally the first person on here I've ever seen complain about it, and i have been here a while. I also play plenty of killer, and resurgence is a perk that's never given me trouble. It's damn good for sure, but not game breaking, good killers can play around quick heals. Then you have perk counters leverage, SH:Weeping wounds, coulraphobia, sloppy butcher. There are a plethora of anti healing perks that nix resurgence very effectively. As well as tunneling off hook.

And yh that slippery meat build is mad, does take up half the perk slots and every offering slot though as well as requiring a 4 man swf.

End of the day probably just going to have to agree to disagree, but hey if I keep winning survivor games on the back of killers trying to slug out I'm not complaining. I certainly don't bother doing it when I'm killer unless I'm in a situation where it's the only optimal play like i decribed before. And my killers games go perfectly fine more often than not.

I don't… believe you, sorry.

You either don't play killer that much or you're newer to the role, there's no other explanation.

Resurgence is a broken perk, one of the most overpowered perks in the game. If you don't think so, you lack the game sense to understand.

Not only does it synergize with the anti-camp feature, as killers don't typically want to hover around the hook very much, giving the survivors space to consistently make use of it.

It also robs the killer of a ton of pressure. The survivor needing to take time to find healing is supposed to be slowdown for you. Or a risk/reward of staying injured in exchange for better gen efficiency. But the survivors simply don't need to make the choice, they can heal 4 seconds after being unhooked and be ready to take two hits after. Even if the survivor uses those hits in the most inefficient way possible, just holding W and not looping anything, it takes a large amount of time to re-down them after you find them again.

No, Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds does not help. I've tried it. It only slows down the heal a little, you need to be proxy camping to actually interrupt the heal. It's also a scourge hook, meaning it's RNG as to if you can even consistently make use of it or not, where Resurgence is available after every single unhook.

You don't hear people complain about it often because, quite bluntly, most of the people on the forums and reddit are bad and only complain about the most obvious things like Sprint Burst and Dead Hard. Resurgence is like Vigil, it's silent in the way it breaks the game, you don't really notice it unless you have a firm grasp of the game's macro.

I'm baffled that people are saying this in the same thread where the Killer playerbase decrees that they slug specifically to avoid Survivor perks that activate with hook states and because it's super effective. 

It's a lot easier to complain that the other side 'wants it easy' then to admit to wanting something easy for oneself. That is the central crux that most people seem to try and avoid.