Is it time to remove Diminishing Returns?
Any fun or niche builds are now not worth running at all. There are so many mediocre, bad and/or niche perks that only get to shine a bit when used in combination with other perks.
On the other hand, meta builds are not really affected by Diminishing Returns. Take a meta survivor build: Decisive Strike, Unbreakable, Dead Hard & Resilience. Completely unafected by DR. In fact, why would you run a fun little build (e.g. 4 healing perks), when that's now really a waste, when you can slap on this meta build and make the killer's match miserable?
A killer is better off just running 4 meta perks, instead of going for fun builds (e.g. Gift of Pain + Leverage; Thanatophobia + Dying Light). Why run these combos when they suck now? Meta is like the only good option.
Also, considering how we're at the point where most of the ideas have been used up for perks, and a lot of perks are just variations of existing perks, and/or something that's only good when used with something else (stacking values), Diminishing Returns makes any perks for upcoming characters worthless even before they are released.
At this point, I think that you would either have to remove a lot of perks from the game (and start making only 1 new perk per character), and/or remove Diminishing Returns, because they ensure that a lot of perks are not worth running.
I think that you had a noble idea of trying to balance things with DR, but the applications has shown that it's killed a lot of variety. If you are planning on releasing more character in the game (most likely you are), and more perks attached to those characters, you can't allow DR to exist. If on the other hand you plan to cut out a lot of the perks from the game, and upcoming characters won't be coming with perks, but something else (new maybe?), then yeah DR could be a way to go.
Comments
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The implementation of the dr system is not the end but only the first step.
Bhvr plans to work on all the perks that are affected by the system because all these perks where only worth to be used in combination but that also meant you could not buff all of them individually to make it worth using them separately.
They want the perks good enough that you can consider using them in your normal build instead of one of the meta perks but if you just do that then they are broken in combination.
Now that we have a dr system we only wait for buffs
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Its all about the bigger picture. Does it kind of suck that certain builds and combos are no longer as effective? Yes, but in the long run, all of these perks will be buffed. Buffed to the point of being individually worth using without needing to be comboed in order to be worthwhile.
The whole point is to be able to run more unique perks without having to commit full on to a certain builds like Jen Jocky which require 2 - 3 perks to make a significant difference with little room for perks to help in escaping the killer.
Another amazing benefit is future perks which will be allowed to release stronger because the devs aren't as worried about crazy absurd synergies breaking the game.
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I'm not against maybe adjusting Diminishing Returns (personally I think it could just stop at halving the efficacy of stacked buffs, it makes simpler math and still does a good job smashing apart value) but it's worth remembering the reason it exists is because things like healing builds can quickly stop becoming "fun little builds" and instead become utterly gamebreaking if numbers on a balance patch or a new perk are badly tuned
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We'll find out as time goes on, as it stands right now, it's too early to tell as they said they wanted this to be an iterative process where they keep evolving it and perks as they go.
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DR should stay. It will take time to adjust.
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Can you share some more information? Specifically, I'd like to know what builds are affected, and what perks are affected in your opinion, just so we can get a better idea of how to interpret your feedback. It's really appreciated!
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They're not going to nor should they revert it. This game is infested with garbage tier perks because the devs have to consider how good they are when stacked, without diminishing returns these perks will never be good, diminishing returns will allow a greater variety of strong perks to exist the long run allowing more variety in the meta, rather than having the meta consist of the same 8 perks, there will be more flexibility and reliable options.
Edit: Thanataphobia is a perfect example it used to give 5% per stack and was even buffed to 5.5% briefly before being nerfed all the way down to 2% per stack with a 12% bonus at max stacks making it worse than it was before the buff
Dying light is another great example, when you get a non obsession hook hook get a token that inflicts 3% action speed penalty to non obsessions. If they buffed this perk to apply on all hooks, and the penalty was 5% and also reverted thana to 5% per stack this would pretty much instantly be a meta combo without diminishing returns and every single killer would be running it. Thats what it would take for the perks to be individually viable, but they can't do it without diminishing returns
Post edited by SkeletalElite on3 -
Not my thread but game needs to be way better with showing players what its actually effecting, this goes for basic and special breaks too. I've had multiple players tell me the game is broken in end game chat because they don't even know these changes are a thing or how they work. We cant add game changing systems and expect players to be reading older patch notes if they are returning players.
Diminishing returns shows no indication in perk screen if they will be diminishing like lighting it up in red to indicate "hey these perks affect each other", nothing lights up during the trail to tell you a perk is contributing to diminishing returns.
Will say diminishing returns was handled slightly better then basic and special break who only have paragraph about it in the "vaults and pallets" section starting second paragraph.2 -
Here are some common combos that were negatively effected where I think one or more of the perks could use looking at:
Fixated + champion of light
Blood Pact + Teamwork: Power of Two
Babysitter + base kit unhook haste
desperate measures + any other healing perk
empathetic connection + any other healing perk
batteries included + rapid brutality
batteries included + machine learning
leverage + scourge: gift of pain
call of brine + overcharge
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There are so many mediocre, bad and/or niche perks that only get to shine a bit when used in combination with other perks.
This is why we need diminishing returns in the first place. Too many perks are forced to stay individually weak to prevent problematic combos forming when similar perks are stacked. DR allows them to finally buff these perks to be appealling on their own.
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One of the biggest problems with diminishing returns is the way in which it interacts with basekit mechanics. On the survivor side we have diminishing returns interacting with haste from getting unhooked, and on the killer side we have diminishing returns kick in on any killer with haste or hinder, effectively removing entire categories of perks. Clown for example feels incredibly bad using any haste or hinder perk because their effectiveness is cut even when you are using only one.
There is no reason why base kit things should be triggering diminishing returns. It severely limits any perk choices you can make and things end up being much more stale because of it. Even without basekit things being affected it still destroys build diversity. Overall this is probably one of the worst things that has been added to the game.2 -
Uh, no?
They JUST put it in the game, we have yet to see how they adjust the perks to account for this, it's still brand new.
Yes, it not affecting the meta all that much sucks, but throwing it out entirely is not the way.
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Clown should have an exception, or they could finally make Invigorated a separate power thing instead of blanket haste buff.
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I have to admit I'm still not sure why people are talking about Diminishing Returns as though it's making a bunch of things worthless or obsolete. When I saw how it was actually being implemented, my honest prediction was that people would complain that it isn't affecting anything directly, because it's really not the kind of system that has that kind of direct hard impact.
The only things I've seen this system fully affect are highly specific gimmick builds where three or more of the same effect is stacked, which is also kinda what it's meant to do so I don't see that as a problem. Actual build crafting and synergy-finding are still very much a thing and also largely unchanged from this system.
I really don't think it's even affecting as many perks as people claim it is, let alone making them worthless.
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