Any particular reason anti slug got dropped entirely?

You countered 11 of there perks good #########

4 years ago there was no way to get 2k + 10 hooks without tunneling or stacking gen regress perks.

Today i do this everyday, survivors are terrible, they mostly have no skill at all in chase. Killer is easy cause the community is unskilled.MMR was launched in 2021, so 4 years ago MMR existed and was tighter.

Well, you do not know what you are talking about, drop it.

Can you show us some video of your killer matches? If you’re going to come here and tell everyone that they’re terrible, at least show us how it’s done so we can all get better.

But those aren't the complaints i normally hear. Nobody is saying they hate being slugged because its "more efficient" as the killer, and it is rare for them to bring up the protections they get from hooks as a reason.

But, you do bring up a great point about the protections. My example if it only takes 30 seconds less to die from being slugged (minus the 3 hooks things) and survivors get tons of perks and benefits from being unhooked, that stands to reason that is the REASON that killers are slugging more.

I have never said that slugging, or for that matter tunneling or camping or anything like that is good for the game.

Slugging is tough, because survivors have many ways to save a teammate while they are being picked up and so on. So i don't think slugging by itself is necessarily a problem.

The problem is more that hooking survivors is just bad for you as a killer. You unlock tons of perks and power for them, and it takes SO long to pick up a survivor, walk to a hook, put them on a hook, where all your pressure you are building up is gone.

Tunneling and camping, i have a solution for from a game design perspective, slugging is tough without negating a ton of things. You need to allow some amount of time for slugging to deal with like 1-2 survivors hovering around for the save. While at the same time, making it not abusable to slug multiple survivors. And at the same time, you don't want to take away all the killer's pressure. In a lot of ways, if there ARE survivors hanging around for the save, and i happen to down all 2 of them, i shouldn't be punished for that as a killer. So it really is a tough call on what exactly the correct solution is. But the solution is definitely not to just slap on basekit unbreakable and call it a day.

I would have to test it out against actual good survivor teams, but perhaps some compromise in the middle where like we do to picking up, walking to a hook, and hooking survivors what we did to pallet breaks, vaulting, survivor speed boost etc. and just buff it up a bit, while adding in a way to "send" a survivor to a hook if they have been slugged a while (to punish survivor teams swarming) while adding a function of unlimited basekit unbreakable, so for example something like this:

• Decrease the time it takes to pickup a survivor from 3 seconds to 2.34 seconds (same as a pallet break)
  • This time hasn't change since nearly the game's release, and was tied to the speed it took to break pallets for a while, then they made it faster to break pallets, then they made it faster again. It's probably time to decrease this timer again.
• Make the timing on blinding a little more lenient again
  • With the increased pickup speed if the killer gets blinded by the survivor during the animation, the timing on blind should be made a bit nicer for survivors so they are still able to do it even if they don't have the perfect position.
• Increase killer movement speed while holding a survivor from 3.68 m/s to 4.0 m/s and then nerf agitation (so like they do with addons, make agitation partially basekit)
  • This puts them at the exact same speed as a survivor, so they still won't be able to chase a survivor while holding one, but it would increase their speed a bit
• Decrease the amount of time it takes a survivor to wiggle off by 1.3 seconds
  • Right now it takes a survivor about 16 seconds to wiggle off, during which a killer could move 58.88 meters, if they make it take 1.3 seconds less and the killer moves faster, it still keeps the same distance of 58.88 meters so killers can't reach any further than they can now, they can just move to that point a little bit faster.
• Decrease the hooking animation from 1.5 seconds to 1 second
• New basekit ability: When a survivor has been slugged for 30 seconds, gain the ability to "send" a survivor to a hook without picking them up. This sending logic just "sends" them to the nearest hook (or maybe furthest? depends on what feels right) without having to pick them up. This ability deactivates if a survivor is downed (basically so they can't slug one survivor, go down another, then send the first one and go hook the second)
  • This makes it so if survivors are swarming around for the save, the killer can chase them off, hit them, etc, but if they keep trying to go for the save and hover around, the killer can gain the ability to hook the downed survivor without exposing themselves.
• New basekit ability: Unbreakable (with no limits) that activates when another survivor is downed. The survivor is able to pick themselves up after 10 seconds of the ability activating.
  • This way, you cant' down multiple survivors without some kind of penalty in place. You'll basically have enough time to decide which survivor you want to hook, but you won't have time to do both.

I think this could be a smaller middle ground where, killers feel like they are able to pick up survivors without losing all the pressure they have built up as much from picking up faster and more movement speed, encouraging them to hook more often. When survivors come for the save, they totally can still save, but if they start swarming for like a "bully squad" type situation, the killer gets the ability to just hook that survivor without penalty, and then immediately start chasing another survivor. While at the same time, you can't go and slug entire teams.

This is also just in a vacuum, i probably wouldn't do the speedup changes if the changes i would make for tunneling and camping that i frequently talk about became a thing, but if we are tackling JUST slugging specifically.

I don't actually know if this is the right answer, or if it is too much, or too little, but it would probably be my starting point of trying to look at slugging in a way that doesn't punish killers for trying to prevent saves, while also dealing with the more egregious examples of slugging. Doing some testing on this, and then tweaking numbers so they make sense.

I still feel like you're misunderstanding that when we talk about slugging, we're not talking about the strategic kind (where you leave the person on the ground for a moment because the teammates are swarming around you). We're talking about the abusive kind, where killers just wanna slug the survivors from the get-go without even trying to hook them, just for the sake of bleeding them out just to be sadistic. And that other mindset you mentioned, "I don't want to deal with these survivor perks, so I'll just bleed them out," is also problematic. That's the same kind of entitlement survivors have when they say, "I don't want to deal with the killer's perks, so I'll just DC."

As for your ideas, it's hard for me to critique them without seeing them in game, which probably will never happen.

Which is precisely my point, how do you punish the abusive kind without punishing the strategic kind? And the only methods anyone can ever give is like basekit unbreakable after being slugged for x amount of time. But that very thing can and will punish killers when they aren't abusively slugging and is precisely what happened on the PTB when they had it and is why we don't have it today.

I will also slightly disagree with you. The entitlement of "i don't like this killer so i'll just DC" is different then "i don't like dealing with X system, so i'll employ a strategy that counters it"

That would be like saying that its toxic for me to say "well i don't like dealing with DS, so i'm just going to not tunnel the survivor" and then be mad that i didn't tunnel you to activate your DS. I am making a decision with my actions in the game to change up my tactics based on the scenario. DCing is just straight up quitting. There is a big difference.

So just more endurance then. Your proposal also isn't just a "lets fix the abusive case" you are just calling for a flat buff to survivors as a whole without actually addressing the issue directly.

So again, you just want a blanket buff to survivors with nothing that addresses any of the issues around how they would be abusable.

Does it really need to be complicated? It's a nerf to slugging. And what "issue" are you referring to here? The issue of slugging, or the "issue" of Survivors having perks that activate with hook states? Even if these Survivor perks were changed, Killers would still slug, which would then prove that the hook-based perks were not the reason they slugged to begin with.

If the SWFs' sole purpose is to "abuse" a mechanic like that, they're not going to survive. Unless it's endgame or something, in which case the mechanic could be deactivated.

I know for a fact that killers are capable of winning without excessive tunneling and slugging, but they just don't want to.

I think this is especially true given the argument.

You proposed a basekit Soul Guard, no pick up, just endurance. Even if we take it to mean the 8 second version, this gives the survivors all of 8 to seconds 'abuse'. So this is only usable if

A: the killer is just staying around the slug (what we want to prevent)

B: the killer chases a survivor to the slug, the survivor picks up the slug, the killer downs them again (what we want to prevent and easily avoidable on the killer's part)

C: A survivor in chase leads to the killer back to slug, survivors pick up, slug gets in the way, bodyblocks, and the killer swings through the endurance instead of waiting it out. Which brings up a couple of points

-that's three survivors not on gens

-there is a huge degree of risk with such an action. If the survivors mess up the timing on multiple moving parts they are now in a far worse situation than before (this is something I find funny about discussing survivors, simple mechanics are called babying the survivors, but also if there is any chance that survivors could try something risky requiring a high degree of timing, that's also a problem)

Any other situation (killer in chase, killer carrying another survivor, killer in a different section of the map, etc.) and its irrelevant.

Yeah, eight seconds would be fine.

If these are ways that SWFs could "abuse" it, then yeah, it can turn into a messy situation and then a snowball really fast.  Hence why I said that SWFs wouldn't survive if they tried to abuse it.  The killer would still get their "hard-earned" victory.

I said slugging for the 4k, which happens when two people are left, not four. There's no counter to it, and no abandon option if the other person is standing.

The abandon option isn't a solution anyway, it's the lack of a solution.

you can get your anti slugging when the killers get Lightborn basekit instead

I've yet to see how Slugging counters sprint burst...

You realize that can basically translate to "I don't want to deal with the opposing teams perks" correct? Aka you don't want to actually play with people.

Slugging for the 4k is valid. If 1 survivor is alive they can get hatch. And if the killer gets hatch the survivor can still find a key, or open the exit gates. Everything is in survivors favor. Killer gets 1 option to reliably kill all 4 and thats slugging for the 4k

I think slugging has it's place. I'll gladly slug for pressure, or because I want to avoid killing someone to early.

But players shouldn't be forced to just not play the game because one player refuses to engage with parts of it they don't like. The game shouldn't be designed around forcing people to not play. That's bad game design.

There being 10 meta perks that have Killers thinking there's no option is part of the problem, in my opinion. BHVR needs to stop adding more perks and start justifying the amount we have already by diversifying them.

And these people don't want a different game. They want to exploit the system we have for an easier time in this one.