BHVR actually used AI during the stream
For anybody who doesn't know yet. Essentially what is going on is that BHVR (who does not condone the use of AI in any way aside for improving "internal workflows - not anything that is related to our games..") They then put up hiring related to programming with generative ai, and apparently just recently in the dev stream partnered with people who support ai.
Remember me if I get banned <3 I would also recommend that mods not continue banning people over this as it will simply get people talking about it more. Massive fumble from BHVR as this is the best they've ever been.
Comments
-
Waow thanks for letting me know ill let you know how being banned feels, really unfortunate as I feel I've been contributing a lot to forums as of the past month or so.
4 -
Specifically, it was the band Ice Nine Kills that used the AI in their music video, but the fact that BHVR okay'd it says they're fine with it over all.
I know who downvoted this, btw. How's the view from that fence?10 -
Yeah thats really stupid that they're banning people over this, it quite literally makes it a bigger deal than "hey were using ai now" and it goes away in a few months
8 -
This was in reaction of a job listing for generative AI which BHVR had online a few months ago. BHVR responsed to the claims that they will now be using AI-Art and similar.
However, the thing is, that DBD-people being DBD-people only understand half of it but talk double the nonsense to make up for it. Obviously we dont know what they will do exactly with generative AI, but if they say that it will not be put into the game, you can trust that. IMO the main complaints about AI are that especially creating AI-Art is basically theft, since it learns the art from actual artists and that it can cost Jobs.
However, you can use generative AI to speed up and optimize processes without losing Jobs or doing theft. An example would be that a Skin can be created by actual artists from BHVR, then ran through an AI to look where it can be improved and then those improvements can be done by the artist again. You would still need the artist for that AND you would not stealing from anyone, since someone at BHVR has created the base for exactly that.
Another option would be using it for developing a coding base. You can for example tell the AI to create a Perk which does a specific thing when you do another specific thing. Lets say you want to create a Survivor Perk that you gain Elusive for 8 seconds when another Survivor is hooked but you are exposed for 30 seconds. Generative AI can scrap what exactly is needed for this (a Hooking action, the status effect Elusive and the status effect Exposed) from DBDs own code and the programmer can then work with that as a base. Obviously you can also not do this Job without a human, because someone would need to check that it is correct and most likely tweak it before you can put it into the game, but it can speed up processes.
I know it is a common practice to ######### on BHVR here, but the statement quoted has a completely different context than any AI-video during the Livestream.
4 -
Thanks for a bunch of context!
6 -
Yeah, this statement is just unrelated to the AI-video of the Livestream. Personally, I also think they should not have included it, even if they did not create the video themselves.
11 -
This is you right now:
-15 -
It's a bad look to me to be so openly anti Ai but then to partner and hand the DBD ip out to people who just don't care and will use it, and then to promote that in the big 10th anniversary stream.
The mixed signals are bad vibes, and I'd rather BHVR tell Ice Nine Kills to remove it or cut the video.
6 -
No, they're giving context because people like yourself are digging up stuff that happened several months ago and muddying the waters over what is happening now. The job listing went up awhile ago and BHVR were called out here on the forum (and elsewhere) and they had to clarify exactly what they were looking to use AI for (not art purposes, and not as job replacement). Dvveet's tweet was in relation to that.
Basically, we've all had this discussion before and dragging it all up again is pointless when we should be specifically asking why they okayed the INK video in their broadcast if it does in fact involve AI. Keep things in context.
12 -
The band's music video does involve ai. But what does a band making a video in tribute to the game, have anything to do with ai being used for anything in the game? I can see the problem if it was ai used to make the upgraded graphics prototype video, but this was just a seperate group of people making a fan music video and happened to use ai. The ai in question is not in use by bhvr at all, but the band instead.
0 -
Because one would assume that they had to be overseeing the project in someway, right? It would be really foolish of bhvr to collab with someone, and never at any point in the process check in on what they're doing. They had to have okayed this at some point.
So we're mad at BHVR because they're essentially saying they're okay with gen ai. Sure, it may not be in the game right now, but all they would need is a little wiggle room to start implementing it in some form or fashion. "Oh, it's just used in a music video" can turn into "It's just being used to make the coding faster" to "We're making character art faster" and so on and so forth. All they need is that little affirmation that we're okay before they start doing it. We can't let them get that idea that we'd be okay with it at all.7 -
I'm not sure if you saw the start of the broadcast, but they made a point in the opening screen to state no AI was used or will feature in the broadcast. So I'm not really surprised that the video put a dampener on the whole thing for some people. There's a good chance that whichever higher up in BHVR approved the video to show during the broadcast may not have realized the band had used AI, but you'd think someone would have at some point prior to the event lol
6 -
Just used in a music video that they didn't make. They could've overseen its production but didn't touch it directly as theirs. They know by now if ai showed up in any of their game production we would riot. But disqualifying a band from collaberating with them over how they wanted to make their music video is a bit pushy.
-3 -
Becareful guys they're banning accounts and doing damage control and erasing threads
There was multiple posts and users talking about it and they're all gone
5 -
Not a huge fan of the data centers being built willy nilly with seemingly little regulation and a disregard for local/environmental health due to a slashing of regulatory policies in the US (and a focus on what's cheapest given AI companies are hemorrhaging money atm) or the overall compute cost needed to render images/video (as I think BHVR will likely outsource to another company's LLM to train their own version).
But I view generative AI as effectively an even more blackbox tool to that of using templates. Helps make things faster, but the resulting template needs to be reformatted to the use-case at hand.
And BHVR needs to understand that generative templates are a tool, not intelligence. It's fed a dataset that creates weights off of inputs that are then shotgunned simultaneously at a "picture". Which creates a bias of how things should look, even if it's incorrect, or causes certain artstyles to be dominant/inherited even when another artstyle is requested.
They need to understand that any AI tool they build/use will have a bias towards the base images used to build/"train" those weights (and lack of weights), and they need to have artists able to work around/fix that, and to also understand that their own artists may develop a bias towards that same AI tool's bias due to exposure.
0 -
The bands drummer says it wasn't AI. I am not denying that it looked terrible but bad CGI has existed since long before AI has. I don't know how someone at BHVR OK'd the video when so much doesn't line up with DBD but there is no real evidence of it being AI.
4 -
So you just didn't read my comment at all and still have the audacity to restate your first comment.
-1 -
If by "Fictional story line", they mean when they used Gen Ai for the band's lore, that's really not convincing. Because they still used Gen AI and acted like jerks to the people who spoke out against them. They could have easily hired artists to make it LOOK like gen AI, but they still used it. So I'm not convinced that they wouldn't use AI again.
EDIT: The downvotes are baffling. They've used AI before and profited off of it. They've shown they have no qualms about using it. So why trust them again? Why give them the benefit of the doubt when they would shamelessly use it if it didn't give them as much backlash? People shouldn't be so quick to forgive and forget, especially when they were never sorry. They knew full well what they were doing.Post edited by BigKingWoof on0 -
So it really was just CGI?
3 -
I don't keep close track on any social media so just learned about that whole fiasco yesterday. My immediate thought was exactly as you said, hire real artists to make it look gen AI and then reveal later that it was real artists and it would have been so much better. However, that doesn't make this video gen AI and nothing since then that has come from the band appears to involve gen AI. I do understand the skepticism though.
I am leaning towards it just being really bad CGI made by people that have never played the game and were probably just shown some models. If it is proven to be gen AI and therefore both BHVR and the band are lying to us I will happily pick up my pitchfork and join the mob.
2 -
I realise the pitchforks and torches come out the moment anyone mentions AI, but BHVR probably has more artist than programmers on staff. Don't think they are replacing artist or programmers with AI here.
Maybe put the pitchforks down for a bit.
2 -
I'm not buying it they have a history of use before hand and a company or band can just deny they used AI and just claim bad cgi to get away with it
1 -
Honestly I don't care whether generative or whatever is used to in the product I'm playing as long as it's fun and engaging.
Caring or pretending to care by taking a position of outrage is exhausting and it means people aren't here for fun but to just complain.
It's one of those topics I'm choosing to not have an opinion of because everyone pretends they're a legal expert or a guru of what really belongs to whatever gets used in ai databases etc.
I believe sharing is caring, and I find the use of AI completely fine and those who don't learn to embrace AI will be left behind so there doesn't need to be so much outrage when everyone wants dbd or anything we enjoy to have longevity.
-6 -
What's the issue with using ai?
-10 -
I and many other people personally don't like ai as it damages the environment, takes away peoples jobs, and my personal reason is that it just doesn't have a soul so its lowkey kinda scary to a lot of people. Especially when you pair all this with the news and whatnot feeding into every story of "Oh this ai tried to escape and hack the world" but in reality the story was "This ai was to to try to escape containment. This was done in order to see its capabilities and limit them ect." So it essentially just feeds into the hysteria even more.
Other than those reasons I would be fine with ai if we found an eco friendly way to use it, whilst still keeping most peoples jobs, and don't make it sentient lmao.
2 -
Billions of inventions have taken away jobs in the past and whether we find it scary or not it's coming so that seems weird to me as well.
Only legitimate things seems like the environmental one. However with how fast ai is advancing exponentially I would surmise it's going to solve a lot of world challenges including its own environment impact. As mentioned before though it's coming whether we want it or not from all over the world so if there's not going to be a stop to it the best thing would be to at least be at the forefront of it lest we fall obsolete behind the people pushing it further.
I guess I don't see the issue.
-5 -
Yeah if anything I was just shocked by how hideous it was. I didn't guess AI, I thought it was just ugly.
Ice Nine Kills has made light of using AI before so I'm not sure what to think here.
There are many, many, many articles on why using programs that make fake art by auto-stealing other people's art is bad, not to mention the stress that these data centers are putting on the environment and the skyrocketing tech prices the RAM shortage is causing. BHVR also had a message at the start of the stream saying there was no AI, so if there was, even from partnered content, that's not a great look.
4 -
If there was a statement saying they don't and then they did I can understand that frustration. That's reasonable.
AI stealing art is an issue if it is, but I've seen tons of ai that does not. That seems more an issue with design than the concept of ai itself. Something that can be fixed.
Environment issues is reasonable but I guess I see the future advancement from ai as worth the cost.
The AI is also coming whether we like it or not so I guess I view embracing it as the best option lest we will simply fall behind the advancement of those that will not slow down its development.
This makes me think of like pushing back against the discovery of engines and using gasoline. Bad for the environment? Yeah, but the other option was staying using horse and buggy and be left behind technologically. It just doesn't make sense to me.
-9 -
AI doesn't create on its own. It gathers available information and bases its output on that. It can even be manipulated (eg if everyone on the internet collectively started posting "the sky is green", then when you later ask AI if the sky is blue, it will tell you no, it's green). So when AI creates art, it is viewed as theft by many artists as it will scour the internet and use what it finds. Which can include their own work.
Also, I'm confident the AI bubble will burst. It is very very expensive and resource heavy to run, to the point where AI was initially being sold at a loss so businesses would adopt it. The prices are now increasing in order for AI companies to start making a profit, and it will drive many businesses (particularly smaller ones) to drop it as it becomes cheaper to just use man power again. So i don't think there's any reason to embrace it, personally, as i don't believe it was sold honestly to the public and businesses.
8 -
Just because a thing is happening doesn't mean you shouod let massive companies do what they want. AI needs restrictions before the damage is too high, and that doesn't happen by rolling over.
I don't know if that's the best comparsion. In just about a hundred years of refining oil we've detrimentally altered the natural course of climate on the earth. I can't say I see ugly music videos or chibi pfps as "worth the cost" as much of AI is being used to make useless garbage for social media. Humans have made many harmful things that we'd be better off without. Not all creations are good.
Post edited by cogsturning on6 -
It's an easy topic for those kinds of people who want to be seen as morally superior to talk down to everyone who even suggests ai has upsides to it.
If ai has grey areas, they have to treat it as the most divisive topic ever like everything else.
Ai is so much more than the whole "it'll take the jobs of artists" argument. People need to think bigger and stop getting triggered by AI lol
-7 -
The problem is we put restrictions and others do not which leads to us falling behind in the ai race. So those restrictions solve nothing but losing in technological and economic advancement.
What would make it not a good comparison? We've caused some damage yes but what has been gained? Should we perpetually have stayed unadvanced? I also don't know if I'd agree on the severity of detriment to say we've altered the natural course.
I don't think I've implied all creations are good nor would anyone. Is music or art for entertainment purpose useless garbage? I guess I wouldn't agree on that.
-2 -
The way I look at it is, why do we push for regulation before we know how ai can be misused for example.
I would think you'll get more from letting ai run wild then honing it back with regulation afterwards just so you can better prepare for the reality of AI being prevalent everywhere.
There's no rush for regulation for a reason imo, people want it now which is understandable but at the same time we need to ensure there's a kinda public consensus on what regulation looks like rather than it being yet another thing determined by companies etc.
People basically need to chill
-3 -
"AI doesn't create on its own."
It does though.
"AI does not strictly "steal" existing art, nor does it merely copy and paste; instead, it mathematically learns the visual patterns, styles, and concepts from millions of training images to generate completely original, unique pieces"
"Also, I'm confident the AI bubble will burst. It is very very expensive
and resource heavy to run, to the point where AI was initially being
sold at a loss so businesses would adopt it. The prices are now
increasing in order for AI companies to start making a profit, and it
will drive many businesses (particularly smaller ones) to drop it as it
becomes cheaper to just use man power again. So i don't think there's
any reason to embrace it, personally, as i don't believe it was sold
honestly to the public and businesses."I guess this is merely our opinions but I completely disagree. I think AI is going to be the biggest advancement the world has ever seen. I think you're underestimating its profitability for companies compared to its costs.
-6 -
I'm not sure who "we" is. So is this an arms race? "We" have to invent the nuclear bomb as quick as possible so the world can live in fear of its power?
Yeah a five second video of a dog walking on its back legs is useless garbage. I don't know how you can believe any amount of art theft or environmental destruction is worth the brainless scrolling on Tiktok or Youtube that has done human society oh so much good. That's not worth a single drop of water. It's also cheapness at it's core. If you want a custom pfp then pay an artist or make one yourself. Same goes for huge companies that can afford artists. But if you doubt the effects modern industrialization has had on this planet then yeah, that's the end of the conversation. There are endless scientific articles on it.
3 -
I'd say nuclear bomb is not a good comparison but something that will advance a countries economy to be a superior one and world leader is. I'm intentionally keeping this and "we" vague as to not turn this conversation into one that could be construed as naming/shaming or targeting. An "arms race" per say in essence, yeah, I think it is.
There is LOTS of ai that is not something silly like a dog walking on its back legs so I wouldn't call that a genuine comparison. There is lots of ai art that is not art theft so I think calling all of it art theft isn't genuine. Lots of ai art isn't brainless tick tok or youtube scrolling. Again, I think that's putting it in the worst light possible. The more profitable ai is, the more money is put into its advancement that can make it accomplish important things for mankind. So I think looking at it as an extremely oversimplified version of "destroy environment for tik tok art slop" is a very, very inaccurate way of viewing it.
I don't doubt the effect of modern industrialization on the planet but I do disagree with you on the severity, and yes, there are endless scientific articles on this.
EDIT: I'll probably have to stop responding here as forum rules prohibit "controversial topics" which is extremely vague and who knows what that will apply to. This is starting to seem as a controversial topic potentially.
-2 -
I don't share the hyper-capitalistic view that certain nations' wealth and technological advancement trumps the well being of the planet or the respect of artistic endeavors, one of the few human traits I view as having any unique value. Art and ethics are what make humans, and if you throw those away, there's just a simple, greedy animal left. I wouldn't call it naming and shaming, but it's a small collective of the usual suspect nations that are driving AI.
You said entertainment. Stupid crap on social media is a common daily use for AI by regular people. If you believed in AI solely for useful endeavors than it should be heavily restricted in its usage, to things like business internals or medical advancements. Those images fed to AI to make it's "art" belong to people who never gave their permission. I've never met anyone who has even an inkling of creative spirit that supports this concept. It's always people who consume and consume but never create, and too many cultures are caught up in that horrible loop of creative emptiness. Why write a book when AI can do it? Why spend days painting what AI can do in seconds? The answers are clear to me but they're growing more distant for many.
We are at the point with temperature rise where reversal is impossible and adaption is necessary. And doing things that continue to push the environment more will only worsen the situation. By the time we get to this point where AI is super helpful abd useful, we will have made the planet significantly worse through water usage, mining, and greenhouse gas emissions.
4 -
A completely fair take and I am perfectly open to someone proving that it is.
Ya, regardless of if it was AI it just looked terrible and just seems weird how anyone could have seen it beforehand and considered it acceptable, especially with nurse running in it.
AI does not create on its own, it does not think, and has no awareness, the algorithms don't know what they are doing math for, they do not "learn" in the same sense that a person learns. Even calling the existing tools "artificial intelligence" is marketing and nothing more. You take away the input data (stolen from millions of people) and these tools are capable of nothing at all. Maybe some day we will create real artificial intelligence but it won't be anything like these tools. The existing tools in the hands of experts can do some incredible things but these are niche cases with heavy guidance, AlphaFold is the premier example of this. The data centers going up everywhere are not for those use cases though, they are for chat bots and image generators that have demonstrable harms both to human psychology and to the planet we live on.
5 -
We already do know. It was built off the theft of images, text, and ideas scoured from the internet. It is already being misused to create realistic "intimate" images and videos of people without their consent. It is already misinforming people every day with summaries containing hallucinations. It's literally stunting kids' learning; more and more kids are struggling to write simple 5 paragraph essays on their own because AI can do it for them, but then lose out on the ability to think critically and comprehensively. And that's on top of the environmental issues surrounding data centers and the morality of feeding a financial bubble that will just transfer more wealth to the wealthiest and leave the poorest to pick up the scraps.
Just because you are unaware of the negative effects of AI that require regulation doesn't mean that nobody is.
This is dipping into politics territory which isn't allowed, so this is where I'll stop.
0
