Does anyone think Jason's omni-present evil mode lasting indefinitely is good game design?
The counter is supposed to crouch walking. Well, the problem with that is Jason can stay in his power as long as he wants to. You could be crouch walking forever just waiting on an unknowable duration. It's a bad counter. Jason is like if Spirit could phasewalk with no limits. And don't get me wrong. Jason is mostly balanced. But omni-present evil mode is broken.
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I mentioned this in another thread. The biggest potential counter is a bit of bravery. Check your surroundings, the resources and ways out you can go. If you're in a position where you have a route to get a decent loop, be the one who gets on gens while he OEs. Teammates in less safe positions can hold off until he emerges.
Either he jumps you and you bolt for the resource he isn't at/towards the safe loop you saw, or he jumps someone else and you've just had a bunch of free time on the gen. Whenever he has committed a chase it's 100% safety to crack on as with any other killer. The survivors essentially get to choose who he finds first.
I'm not claiming this is direct counterplay that guarantees a win, and I'm going to spend some time in the next few days trying this mentality out further to see just how much success I see.12 -
He cant tell who hes seeing mostly so ive found success by having the better loopers be the ones to draw him out by working on gens in prep for him to appear. He chases them for a while we get some progress. He maybe drops and then the next person also tries to stall. You have to accept he will always find someone but you can decide who he finds.
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he has no ability to exert pressure in the form so it doesnt really matter how long it lasts
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This. Its duration has little to do with the balance, as while the duration lasts, Jason is not actively performing his objectives. Why would duration particularly matter? I would say cooldown could maybe be larger, but duration being indefinite only makes sense to me.
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What? Of course the duration matters. As long as the power is active Jason is either getting free information or survivors or crouch walking. Both great results for Jason.
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There are 2 big problems imo:
1. its bugged, sometimes you scream while you're crouching, sometimes you run/walk and dont leave any prints
2. the 1v1
His ability is arguably worse than Singu, because Singu's 1v1 impossibility is map dependend. The maps that work best against Singu, are also maps Jason thrives on because there is ALWAYS a potential pallet spawn right next to the gate.
I feel like Jason should have a limited time in that state depending on how many survivors there are.
Like, Doctor is THE example of a 1v1 that can be difficult due to info, yet Jason gets more. Which during the standard gameplay is absolutely fine, could be improved even. But once everyone is dead and the game is designed for the exit gate to be a possibility, that possibility should maintain for all killers.
As for killer mains who disagree, imagine that all gens are gone and the exit gates opened, but specifically Steve got a basekit mechanic that basically makes it impossible to pick him up once the exit gates have opened, effectively guaranteeing he gets out whenever he brings something like Tenacity. Would you even care to chase him at that point? Would you want to face a team of Steve's consistently?
It's important that the 1v1 remains possible, because if its not, i'm just gonna crouch waddle to a location I know the killer wont look for untill the timer runs out.4 -
People complaining about omni when wraith can do the same thing but better….
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He's getting information any other killer would get the same way - using his eyes and looking. No one objects to wraith's invisibility having infinite duration and he gathers more information than Jason does, as Jason depends on the cloud mechanic to visibly note anything in OE. Wraith just straight up sees you.
Jason in OE means he can't be kicking gens, chasing survivors, etc. Infinite duration is actually to your advantage as it makes Jason far more likely to hesitate and linger. If you add a duration, that means Jason will start spamming it and potentially finding people by accident by exiting OE and triggering KI and initiating a hunt immediately.
Infinite duration is to the benefit of survivors. But if you want to get rid of that, as a Killer Main, I am 100% happy to support your wish and deny that advantage.-1 -
i've been playing jason w corrupt and it's a struggle since everyone crouch walks everywhere giving minimal infomation to the point of having to guess where people will be
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Wraith? This is what we are comparing OE to?
Wraith is objectively weaker and his mobility is not comparable to Jason's traversal. If anything, I'd argue it's most similar to Henry's map traversal as they both can stay in their power indefinitely.
No need to compare apples and oranges, I think it's overblown with Jason but to compare it to Wraith? That's wild.
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My problem with OE being infinite is mostly with end game. If he slugs for the 4k it's gg. You can't crouch for 4 minutes without getting crows but as soon as you do anything else hell get free info. Getting the gate open as the last person is nearly impossible too, unless you have a whole build for it, because even if you do the thing where you only partially open it first, he'll see you on it and pop out.
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The end game is a touchy portion, admittedly. I'm beginning to think Jason should probably give surv's a gate opening speed buff or something.
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In fairness I drew that comparison in a specific context: Information modes with infinite duration should not be a thing, was the claim. That's apples to apples. But comparing them wholesale is erroneous, I'd agree. They are closer than not, but still not quite apples to apples. Wraith can end his stealth at will, but OE has to use a vault/pallet point, with the bonus of gaining haste for that requirement. He has the M2 atop of that, which makes him impossible to 1:1 to Wraith. But OE to wraith is itself fairly valid.
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They could make it so that longer he stays in the mode he will eventually lose the information he could gain from it. Like so survivors could run around and he could not see them if he stays in it too long. I don't know what the timer should be but it would not remove the possibility to stay in the mode but at least would have downside of staying in it too long.
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I'd be down for that over establishing a duration. Leave duration, but make the indicators of red smoke disappear and reduce him to sound only like spirit (sans scratchmarks.)
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Just quoting myself to add this to it.
Another thing they could also do is to make the door lights not be visible when he is in the mode. Would make it harder for him to camp the doors in the end so he would at least need to get close to listen.
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sry but theres nothing broken about O-P's duration. he can stay in O-P indefinitely, so what? its not like he can emerge on top of you, it has to be on a pallet, window, or breakable wall.
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”It’s not like he can emerge on top of you”. Most gens are near pallets, most hooks are also near vaults and pallets.
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He can't emerge on top of you just at any of 200 locations evenly distributed throughout the map while knowing where you are
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Okay, and? The Fog rolls in giving survivors an "heads-up he's near", and his jumpscare basically stuns him when he emerges before he can do anything. His jumpscare also suffers a "50% on emerge while near a hooked survivor" effect. Sorry but that still doesnt make it busted just because he can do indefinitely.
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and thats only when you're working on a generator or not crouching. its not like it gives him aura read, its more like how Xenokitty sees your footsteps "has an idea where you are but not an exact location".
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You're right. We should really nerf vault and pallet density. Previously people downvoted anyone pointing out that there were too many. I'm thrilled to see we're beginning to see that the density of these interaction points is problematically dense and frequent.
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I don't find it problematic coz its a 4v1, you need to remember he can only be on one of you at a time and if you are taking chase and doing it well, you're buying time for the other 3 survivors.
Something people forget rather quickly, just coz he is good at the 4v1, doesn't mean he is broken in the 1v1.0 -
Thanks for pointing out that this interaction is bugged. Some people here believe I'm delusional or simply bored and talking about stuff idk.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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It really doesn't matter to me if they remove those pallets. Most of those pallets I wouldn't even use because they're so unsafe.
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I'm sorry you think chasing someone around empty tiles is a fun and skillful interaction. I presume you also want to remove hooks because its too easy for him to reload? And by reverting vault and pallet density you also mean restoring all the shrunken maps and nerfed main buildings that went along with it, right? Because you're making a 100% honest and good faith argument right?
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No, I'm making a sarcastic argument but it is being done in good faith. I hate chasing people around tiles and find looping to be the most boring mechanic in DbD : chasing people in circles is a game for dogs and children. I also think the hook pulling is fine as it creates unhookable dead zones temporarily that can be survivor exploited as a counter. Revert the maps if people like, it doesn't bother me.
I would be fine with reverting the maps, yes. 100%. I think I have learned to live with pallet density and vault density because if you complain about it you get downvoted into the dirt. I just find it particularly ironic that the moment those factors can be harnessed by a killer, everyone suddenly agrees there are too many. There's a hypocrisy at work here and I feel obligate to call it out.
I mean it quite literally. I'm more than slightly agitated at the way people were shouted down when they claimed pallet and vault density was an issue, insulted and demeaned for it, and now suddenly people are on board to address the problem. It was fine when it was a survivor resource, and was fairly distributed and wasn't by all the gens, etc - but the moment a killer harnesses that resource, now they are too many, now they are near gens, etc etc.0 -
Happy to agree to see unsafe pallets removed.
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Did you not read? Jason can stay in his power indefinitely. You're gonna be crouching for an unknown amount of time. You also can't contribute to the match while you're crouching. You're going to be doing nothing to help your team. It's basically ratting with extra steps. Is this why so many streamers I've watched win on 4 or 5 gens with Jason? Is it because survivors like you are crouch walking around edgemap?
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You're not being shouted down, people just disagree with your opinion. When practically every new killer in the last 2 years has been designed around instantly traversing the map and then chasing with anti-loop powers, survivors need resources to stand a chance. If you can't see the insane powercreep in terms of having every possible aspect of killer powers (basekit slowdown, anti-loop, mobility, information) rolled into every new character, and connect that with map design issues caused by it, idk what to tell you.
They literally had to add play while you wait to 1v4 mode and killer queues are still 10 minutes. Maybe survivor doesn't feel great right now for a big enough portion of the playerbase to significantly effect queue times. And this wasn't just from the Jason release. Survivor queue has been instant almost all day and night for months now.
If you don't want your opponents to be able to express skill in chase, then what is the point of playing a PvP game?
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This is the problem Jason is pretty much our Sombra. For anyone who doesn't play overwatch Sombra is the invisible hack character, and has always been on the weaker B side. But is so unbelievably boring and obnoxious to go against that she's still one of the most banned characters in game and is on her way to her 4th rework. Jason shares near all the same elements of requiring way more effort to play against as opposed to playing.
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I'm not referring to just me on the shout-down. It's a common downvote topic, and it's bizarre to see what wasn't a problem yesterday, suddenly a very real problem today the moment the person effected changes.
I don't mind people expressing skill in chase, I mind looping. They are free to do so but I will disengage and prey upon someone who is easier to catch. That is also valid - if I can't express my own desires of enjoyment, what is the point of a PVP game?
My point isn't that I hate people being able to run and bounce around etc. My point is that before Jason, popular opinion on one side was that there was no pallet density issue. Now, suddenly, those same people are saying there is a pallet density issue. It very much leaves us in a position for me to point out that hypocrisy.-5 -
i just did a match with crouching against jason and he couldn't find anyone to the point of checking lockers because of how little information he gets when people crouch people will just make aura read builds on him since using OE is kinda a detriment when people know the counterplay
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This is perfectly said. Jason may be an average killer (B tier?). But games against him are long and slow. And of course he encourages boring crouch walking. It's just not fun.
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It's really no different than Wraith being cloaked indefinitely.
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In a bubble, yes, it's fine. The counterplay to it is being cautious and taking things slow. He can stay in the power forever, and although I think it's boring and uninteresting to just do nothing until he comes back out of it, that is what is effective.
In practice, Hex: Ruin and Hex: Thrill of the Hunt exist, which is the problem. You can't afford to play like that, but he's also really good at guarding the hexes because you lose all progress on cleansing them if you let go and his jump scare can force you off of them.
If you stick the gen, he could emerge 5 feet away from you and you begin the chase in a horrible position. If you play passive, Ruin decays your generator. Sprint Burst mitigates this but I would really rather not run that if I don't have to, I prefer playing without exhaustion perks.
He just needs to give slightly more clue as to his location than he currently does, imo. I've heard people say the fog thickens if he's close to you, and maybe, but I think people are just imagining that and the fog naturally oscillates between thick and thin. I've had the fog appear extremely thick and then he emerges from power nowhere near me, not even in terror radius range.
If the fog thing isn't actually a clue, he gives the least hint as to his location of any killer in the game. Even Wraith has his raspy breathing and shimmering which forces him to make use of LoS blockers on the approach. The only one comparable is Dredge, who is much less lethal in chase.
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Exactly my thoughts, we are forcing survivors into this need to be at a master level of everything we shouldn't be pretending Otz and friends skill level is the norm rather than the extreme minority. And then hit them for daring to get better, like I swear our balance boils down to "Well these plat players are mad they got thrashed by GM players so we made the GM players have to jump threw fire hoops and will force them to wear flippers while doing it when they learn to do it better." And then tell those struggling because survivor skill ceiling is taller than a skyscraper "git gud but actually don't because we'll nerf you for daring to."
Long gone are the days of old DH/infinites/syringe and so forth survivors aren't some boogeyman in the dark they're putting in as much legwork as killer and most times their perks require added actions. I can have corrupt and know they spawn opposite me so I just go there. Corrupt existing is it's value I dont have to do anything. And that's fine, I think killer should have a edge but more often than not I feel like I'm being babysat especially on newer killers. Jason isn't Ghoul by any means but any weaknesses I should have are just not there and I already know survivors are crouching away from gens so the game is naturally slowed down and that's without applying any slowdown yet.4 -
Out of curiosity but, what would be "instantly traversing the map"? Because most of the last 2 year killers have some mobility but its usually limited.
Vecna: Has fly. Is kinda fast but limited range and high cooldown.
Dracula: Decent mobility in Bat form. Has a teleport but its very limited (32m baseline and only into windows/pallets), the teleport speed is somewhat on the slower side (and you can see it coming) and has high cooldown.
Houndmaster: Has fast travel speed only following his dog path, again limited.
Kaneki: Could be the closest one to "instant traversing map", however if he hasnt bitten anyone then the 2 dashes so not cover that much distance.
Springtrap: Has teleport around the map but limited to doors. Also im not sure if i would call it "instant" because he still needs to go into a door and all the animation must go on until it goes outside the next door.
Krasue: Fast travel on head mode but still not "instant".
Henry: The same as Krasue.
Honestly, Billy is one of the first killers and has faster travel speed than literally anyone on this list. And as long as he doesnt collide into anyhing (map dependent) he has infinite fast travel speed.
And about the queue times, i think its region dependent. Its been just some months since i played but some months ago during the day my killer times were a bit on the longer side but on night the killer times were instant.
Post edited by albertoplus on-1 -
I mean killers having oppressive chase powers and the ability to erase any distance you create by them misplaying/getting outplayed at a tile. Billy has been buffed to be near this category. Having longer curve window and bloodlust on his power removed most of his counterplay and made him another predrop or die killer at most tiles.
Whether it takes 5 seconds to catch up or 2 doesnt matter. When you completely outplay a killer and then any mistakes the killer made are immediately erased it doesnt feel rewarding to play against. And dealing with killers like that require more resources.
This applies to every killer on your list plus Blight, though vecna and springtrap are the least egregious because their chase power isn't oppressive to the same degree as the others. Houndmaster is hard to judge as she's been bugged forever but she has decent counterplay at loops in my experience.
Edit: I would exclude springtrap as his mobility is heavily restricted to the doors similar to freddy. He can't just continually cut you off mid chase.
Post edited by Rogue11 on4 -
Wraith gets a lot more information while cloaked too
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No ranged power, easier to see/hear him approaching, telegraphs his uncloak, slower while cloaked than Jason, doesn't cause exhaustion with an add on every uncloak, can't teleport between floors.
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Funny how one thing makes jason slightly stronger and its the same thing many survivors deffend and praise.
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Wraith can catch up faster the jason and now you admited you hate it because of addon.
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Yeah numbers dont lie but you are kinda wrong here because wraith has free movement and he can uncloak anywhere but jason can exit his omnipresent mode only on windows and pallets or breakable walls so he catches up faster becase jason has to leave specific spot.
So if survivor isnt near pallet or window jason wont ctach up faster, wraith can hit survivor and cloak and get behind him and uncloak and its fater then jason who cant do it right behind survivor as wraith can.
No ranged power, easier to see/hear him approaching, telegraphs his uncloak, slower while cloaked than Jason, doesn't cause exhaustion with an add on every uncloak, can't teleport between floors.Jason has range power thats very specific and was nerfed since he was in ptb and has same hitbox as slinger which is smallest possible hitbox in entire game and its one time use shot that he must restock. You see wraith in open only in indoors you wont see him unless you have loss and you still have to pay lot of attention its more because he bonks the bell but he is easier to see.
Again slower he is but jason beats wraith in global map wide mobility not survivor catching up mobility in which wraith is slightly behind dracula who only can fly over pallets and windows and has tp to it but its same as wraith.
Do you think draculas catch up power is worse then jasons??? Here you will answer yourself in this.
And last addons which we talked about before so thats like 4 points max.
And please leave your old photos or photos of your family out of this, I dont think its nice doing yourself or your members, thank you.
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Its a famous meme confused face.
Simply having a ranged attack invalidates half of the tiles on most maps. And its very easy to reload midchase with no slowdown.
Wraith is slower, with no ranged attack, with worse stealth, and doesn't cause blanket exhaustion to everyone in the same area code from using his power.
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He exerts pressure from the threat of having a 4.6 ranged killer appear 2 feet away from you with little to no warning, putting you in a lose-lose chase where you will surely get hit.
It's just a poorly designed ability. You can't do gens, you can't heal, you can't do totems because he sees all of these things and sure this wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't oppressive in chase… but he is. So you HAVE to fear getting in a chase with him.
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To paraphrase what half the people have been trying to say as a counter-argument:
If you aren't engaging in a chase in a PVP Chase game, why are you playing? One of the survs needs to chase engage to keep him busy so the others can do gens. It's not that different from other killers.-2 -
And to paraphrase what people keep telling you who repeat that:
It's a wholly ignorant argument.
Other killers don't get free info and infinite duration mobility to just permanently scour the map ping ponging from survivor to survivor WITHOUT the need of perks, like Jason can. Other ranged killers aren't 4.6 which makes him oppressive in chase. You will never NOT be in a chase while playing Jason.
People wouldn't care about getting in a chase with Jason if he wasn't disgustingly oppressive in said chase. I unironically, prefer getting chased by Kaneki than I do Jason. I have more counterplay against Kaneki then I do the 4.6 killer with one of the best ranged attacks in the game.
Other killers on top of all that, don't also then get to just appear immediately on top of their target, with little to no warning, leaving them no real room to create distance and have a chance. Every single other ranged killer is not only 4.4 but also has plenty of warning that they are coming which lets you actually do what you're meant to do against ranged killers which is create distance. Jason completely skips that and follows his own rules. He gets to just appear with no real warning from 3 feet away, inflict you with exhausted for 13 SECONDS with an addon so you can't even create distance with something like a sprint burst to make up for the fact that he doesn't give you time to get away like every other ranged killer.
It's literally a lose-lose. You either don't do gens, to which progress is completely halted and you may even lose progress to ruin. Or you do the gen, but then when he shows up you now have to deal with a massively oppressive in chase Jason that just afflicted you with 13 seconds of exhausted because you decided to play the game in his presence. Oh and don't bother trying to do totems to because… he can see that as well!
He. Is. Poorly. Designed.
He is not the best killer in the game. He is not even top 3. That does not mean he is not a problem in his own right. His design just stacks too much on top of each other. If you do the counterplay? You get punished. If you don't do the counterplay? You get punished. There's no real correct decision other than force yourself into a chase and pray to god the Jason player can't aim.
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Its a famous meme confused face.Memes thats all in nutshell (shame you arent).
Simply having a ranged attack invalidates half of the tiles on most maps. And its very easy to reload midchase with no slowdown.No, not realy it makes some worse but he looses lot of distance and has only one shot if he misses he must get lucky or go out of his way to refill his spear which makes him not so great on loops as people say.
His speed well if you get not so smart survvior that runs into loop resource then he doesnt get much distance but against me anyone doublebacked and into open so you waste with jason 10-20 seconds of your haste boost to catch up and then you are 4,4 m/s killer with single range attack thats strong but just one try.
Map rng is a thing, jason is bad on maps that have less places he can spawn on especialy near gens where survivors gather and lot of grass or CORN like coldwind are bad maps for him while great map is midwitch where survvior cant use hold W so easily and is more grounded in these combs where are resources jason can tp too.
Wraith is slower, with no ranged attack, with worse stealth, and doesn't cause blanket exhaustion to everyone in the same area code from using his power.He is slower yes, yes he has no range attack. No wraith has no busted addons he is been in game for very long and started as worst killer from all and in top 5 worse in history of DBD his 2016 version so its clear that wraith has no broken addons as killer thats been out for few days 3 is it.
No wonder clever Alice.
Theres way to counter his whole jumpscare and that whole addon mintskull has it in his video if you know he is coming for you.
with worse stealthSince when wraith has worse stealth?? This right here makes me believe you havent played wraith or against him for few years because wraith is one of best stealth killers in the entire game both in power and the stealth he offers.
Jason has better mobility on map, antiloop but timed and then he is worse so he isnt so basic as wraith, better detection,mini mori makes some perks like ds less hurt.
Wraith has better stealth, is way easier, has better catch up power for getting back at survivors, is less map dependent and impacted compare to jason. Ofcourse with addons that are good without them wraith is still bit outdated only him having some good addons and being easy still holds him in mid b-tier right now.
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