shane's regalia should not be for profit
while i obviously don't speak for all natives as we all have different views [i am not affiliated with the anishinaabek peoples, i am mississippi choctaw by descent (halito!)] i don't think shane's regalia should be locked behind auric cells. for one, regalia is a deeply personal and involved collection of, essentially, someone's life that they wear at powwows or other ceremonies. it feels wrong to me that something like this is not being offered, at minimum, as both auric and shards. profiting entirely off of this portion of our culture with it being as significant as it is feels like bhvr is saying "pay me to have this personal part of yourself represented" and it feels really scummy. especially as a canadian company.
i'm happy that shane wiigwaas is in the game, i really am. i love that our culture is being seen more. i also understand that he's an original character, but i think something that can be sensitive like this demands way more respect and care. i didn't expect regalia to be referenced in this game and i'm excited that it is, but given bhvr's history of not really being too respectful to cultures from the get-go (e.g, the launch of trickster's delusion and the misuse of korean [and unfortunately japanese] culture/language quite recently), this is really concerning for how future cultural representation is going to be used and how bhvr may monetize off of what means a lot to us natives, and eventually other cultures as well.
idk if this was the result of consulting with other natives and what they had to say, but please reconsider this decision and make these cosmetics accessible to all. you are already selling someone that is a representation of a people and are making money off of it. at least donate some of the proceeds you gained from sales to reserves, particularly the peoples you're referencing the most.
edit: i walk it back. it feels wrong that this is being profited off of in general. such a symbol should not be profited off of period.
edit 2: updated the title for more clarity. better elaboration of my point in replies below.
Comments
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I don't understand why we are giving free survivors paid cosmetics in the first place, especially since its not like they're licensed at all. Either way aside from that I completely agree with what you said.
Edit: Completely forgot purple cosmetics release as auric cells for the first month. Props to the art team though as the skins are great.
Post edited by pidgeon on4 -
agreed
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bruh im sorry but lol. If you spent X amount of time designing a model, creating a skeleton, pegging animations to that skeleton, etc. etc. Would you expect to be paid 0 dollars? I'ts fine and nice to say "it should be free!" but how many hours of effort went into the design, skeleton, rigging, etc. etc. In an ideal world I agree with you it would be free but this isn't an ideal world.
Keep in mind to you saying "hell no"" to the above is that there is nothing related to this group ever produced. I'm not saying it's right but pointing out the reality of the situation. How much do you think BHVR spent on this survivor design? from concept to initial design to model to animation, etc. etc.
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I get where you’re coming from, but BHVR is a business that wants to make money. All original survivors can be bought with money or shards, and these characters cost BHVR money to create. They’re not just going to give them away for free.
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I would like to point out, it is not locked behind Auric Cells.
All original cosmetics for original characters in this game are free to purchase with shards after a month of being out.
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Nothing is being paywalled here.
Every new cosmetic that is purple rarity or higher first releases for Auric Cells only, then gets a corresponding shard price after four weeks.
It's been like that for a long time now. And Shane is no exception. Nor will he be the last.
So I get where you're coming from, but there is nothing out of the ordinary here.7 -
i understand the position of cost associated with resources spent, but you also have to consider that it was BHVR that ultimately made the decision to invest in creating the cosmetics. they should have also been aware of the cultural significance and what such a move can imply to the people they're representing
they are profiting off of the sale of the character, and rightfully they should because they invested the time into bringing him into the game. i am not saying they shouldn't also profit off of additional creations, but things that are this culturally significant should not be one of those things.
to me, it is the equivalent of going up to the karamojong tribe in uganda as a foreigner, making a copy of their jewellery, and then selling it to everybody else as trinkets without giving them anything in return. it can be incredibly disrespectful especially when you consider the history of how us communities are treated even in modern day. this is an ethical issue
again, at least give back to the communities you're making money off of. they did it with orela (albeit once), why can't they do it again?
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Is that the reason why Its a full set? was curious why it was locked as a full set.
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thank you for reminding me, that makes me feel a little bit better about the money-only part. one other person in the community let me know as well. it's not often i pay attention to how skins are provided, but this was an exception.
@random1543 editing my comment to reply to you, but that's not always the case. most of the time bhvr locks cosmetics into sets to prevent broken cosmetics or incompatibility with other pieces. there can be a variety of things with this one, but that's as far as i know as one of the reasons they do it.
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Yeah I guess so people wouldn't combine it with hobo hat or something idk.
Im kinda afraid that Shane will have a huge shortage of cosmetics just because he's native American and bhvr as Canadian company is extremely sensitive about it. So maybe doing stuff like clown outfit might be offensive idk
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Everything related to him is unlockable through iridescent shards as far as i know. That seems more than fair.
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outside of natives, i'm also concerned about how they're going to treat other cultures moving forward. i might edit my OP to reflect that deeper. but it is very late and this was on my mind in the sense that i really wanted to get it off my chest. i might rewrite the post entirely bc it doesn't entirely capture my thought process
i'm all for companies and businesses shedding light on cultures, as everyone deserves an opportunity to learn and be seen. but i'm scared about this becoming a repeated thing where BHVR commits to collecting money off of the backs of marginalized communities and doing nothing for them other than "you get exposure".
holding their feet to the fire helps set an example on giving communities the respect they deserve while being represented. i don't want them to be scared of representing, but they should do it ethically.
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The two regalia outfits are only available for cells as of yesterday.
I imagine they’ll become available for shards later down the line, though.
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Yeah i would hope so, other creatures of the fog mentioned that it takes a month for original characters.
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Yeah. You don’t have to pay anything for the original content, as I mentioned in my earlier comment. The outfits currently available for Auric Cells will become purchasable with shards in about a month or so. This is why I don't really see any issues here.
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They put labor into creating the cosmetic they then get paid for it that's how this works. Also they had Ojibwe consultants working with them the entire time and I assume they helped work on it and greenlighted it so I don't really think it's for you to say whether it's okay or not what they do with the character as long as they're alright with it.
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I get it, I really do. But it does bother me that the more a company like BHVR tries to be representative and diverse that they are punished for it, every single time, because progressive thinking is inconsistent and no matter what you do, someone finds it offensive and drops by to poop down your chimney about it.
I remember them getting flak for making David gay because 'femme erasure' and 'of course he's a white guy'.
I remember them getting flak for Trickster's Valentine's outfit because 'fetishization' or Krasue because 'cultural appropriation'.
Maybe, just maybe, we approach matters like this with an iota of charity? Because otherwise all you're encouraging is companies to stay in their lane and never attempt anything like this - and that's how you get boring fiction.
EDIT: Oh wonderful, I just clicked that we're doing the 'a company doing everything right and giving minority groups everything they could realistically want isn't enough, because they're a company and capitalism is bad' discussion.
This isn't going to end well.
Post edited by Equinox_One on2 -
i think as part of the general family of people, i do still reserve the right to at least share criticism and my viewpoint as feedback. my opinion is not the end-all-be-all and is not meant to be, hence why a post like this is up for debate to begin with.
now that i am aware that ojibwe consultants were involved, i do find it comforting that it went through their hands before they gave bhvr the okay. but my stance on that is: sure while the few that have reviewed it gave it the green light, will that land the same way with everyone else?
this isn't to say that bhvr needs to consult every tribe and nation, but i'm just hoping this is something that they've at least considered.
again, since i have been told that this is temporary and is the regular pattern for original survivors, i am not as upset about it as i was last night. i feel way better knowing that bhvr was considerate enough to consult a people for this sort of thing. i was mainly concerned about it being for-profit the entire time and how uncomfortable it was seeing this for the first time.
i see your viewpoint and i can agree on this. however i will always have mixed feelings and skepticism due to the nature of selfishness that comes with this representation from a for-profit organization. businesses are there to make money, and in a day where there's a lot of performative and dishonest behavior, it gets difficult to tell when something is genuine or not. it gets even more scary when it comes to something that's close to you. a company can easily sell you the idea of being progressive, but do they truly mean it?
i would assume so given bhvr's focus on different types of communities, but knowing that it always has the added benefit of being a marketing tactic disconcerts me. maybe i'll grow to be more accepting of it over time, but right now... i don't know.
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I purchased both Shane and most of his outfits with just free shards. On day one of his release. Maybe they changed it later in the day. But i can confirm i got them with shards, including the Regalia
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Oh joy.
If we're really going to play the 'anything a corporation does = bad because capitalism = bad' game, then I don't think we will ever find a productive common ground.
You're essentially wokescolding a company despite them doing literally everything right because…capitalism.
I hate this timeline.
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as a native tc is right, maybe they should’ve used another cosmetic as the auric cell purchase instead of the regalia but of course this community wouldn’t understand how wrong this is. Screw marginalized people think of the corporation!
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It's so over if we get stuck on the idea that "progressivism is when nobody sees the fruit of their labor" like that feels more performative to me because there's no utility only signaling.
Real life is not twitter people actually need to make rent.
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It will be available for shards in about a month or so. I'm not going to comment on whether it's right or not since I’m not part of that group, just letting you know.
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think of the corporations people! Screw that some things should not be used for profit post.
Seriously the regalia should’ve been an iri shard only cosmetic with no auric cell option. Other cosmetics that were release could’ve and should’ve been used in its place.
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its not about it being sold a month or now for iri shards. It should not have had an auric cell option point blank period. As a native i would’ve rather they left his regalia out entirely instead of ever making profit off of it.
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May I ask why it’s such a big deal? I’m just curious, and I don’t mean to come across as rude or anything.
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Outside of literally disbanding their company or giving everything away for free, what exactly could they be doing better?
BHVR are probably THE most progressive company out there. I hate it that all they get is wokescolding and I'm honestly surprised at times that they bother trying.
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Just going to be quick here i won’t give you a full run down of why when google exists. However regalia is deeply sacred, in fact it is so personalized that no one other than the owner is even allowed to touch it without permission. There is a spiritual aspect as well as it being worn during dance as a form of prayer. There is way more too it than that, if you really want to know more i do suggest you look into it. I just am not the best at explaining these things.
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thank you for speaking alongside with me as a fellow native. some of the community understands which i'm grateful for, but most do not, which i can also somewhat understand.
it just feels alienating to be told that i'm fighting against progressivism, being likened to twitter folk, and that i'm tearing bhvr down, not considering people need to get paid for rent when i understand these things but deep down it really doesn't feel right for them to profit off of us this way. it isn't even clear if bhvr intends on sharing these profits for a good cause which worries me. it really should've been something other than regalia. i think they could've been better off designing clothing from the ground up with input or referencing more casual wears (as they already have with some of the stuff they already made, which i like)
this same rhetoric is said to me when i see symbols being misused or people selling war bonnets/roaches as accessories for parties without understanding what it does, what it means, etc.
all of us on mother earth deserve equal representation, but there's ways to do it without taking away from communities. "it's just a skin" to some, but the philosophy behind it matters more in the grand scheme of things because it influences how stuff like this is handled later on.
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this isn’t wokescolding. Our regalia is not for sale, sell other cosmetics but regalia should never ever be sold for profit and you trying to call this wokescolding is incredibly tonedeaf and disgusting.
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That’s actually really interesting, thanks for explaining some of it to me. I’ll definitely look more into it.
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I think your concern is valid honestly but this post in particular irks me because…
People ask to be represented in the game right, the same way as anyone else? That means the content is treated the same as anyone else I.E the same way to get it, the same methods of purchase and so on. I guarantee you if Shane had released and the content you're taking issue with was excluded, people would've been upset, angry and so on
Something to the effect of "It's not real representation, BHVR was just being lazy". I don't believe you would have but some certainly would have. Or at the minimum asked for it.
Plus, you act like BHVR never gives back to communities when history shows they do. The donations to LGBT+ communities, the portion of profit from Orela's cosmetics was donated. So you're not wrong in saying they COULD do something like that but to act like they don't is a bit unfair imo
Not trying to be a BHVR defense force guy tho, criticise them to your hearts content if you ask me.
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you don’t understand and likely never will, but regalia is something that should never and i do mean never be sold for profit, it never should’ve had an auric cell option, shane could’ve had some of his other cosmetics take the auric cell purchase point instead.
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Companies are people.
BHVR need to make a profit to keep this game up. And demanding that anything of any sort of cultural significance to anyone not be sold is unreasonable and patently ridiculous. All you're doing is moving the goalposts and berating a company who is doing just about anything right - and eventually, they're going to stop trying.
And then you'll complain about that instead.
This is why we can't have nice things.
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Bit harsh to say I'll never understand, I didn't even say being concerned about it is wrong.
I'm just saying this is how BHVR operates, if they do something offensive it's usually out of incompetence or lack of foresight than it is to cause any disrespect or harm to communities.
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no goal posts are being moved.
The problem here is only with the regalia and as i’ve said it never should’ve had an auric cell option, they should’ve used one of his other non auric cell exclusive cosmetics to take its place.
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This is somehow both wokescolding and tone policing. I'm honestly kind of impressed, and well on my way to a Bingo.
If you want BHVR to just stay in their lane, be as passively progressive as possible and never take a chance on representing anything cultural because they'll be bombarded with petty nitpicks and painted as bigots again - keep right on at it.
- You're not fighting against progress. You're actively discouraging anyone from even trying, because the goalposts will always shift.
- Twitter does not exist anymore, but yes - this is the exact sort of mouse/cookie problem that I'm describing.
- You are doing literally all of the rest.
- Did you just compare me pointing out that you're impossible to please with actual, IRL profiteering?
If all of us deserve equal representation, then all of us deserve to have our best efforts treated with charity and not spat on because 'well you're still capitalists'.
Again, we're living in the worst timeline and, frankly, stuff like this is why. Progressive communities operating on Highlander rules.
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I swear some people think corporations consist of a CEO and COO and that's it. But when you realize how real life works you'll realize a bunch of artists that make considerably less worked on this and yes they do deserve to be paid for their work. And you are not the president of all first nations peoples and knowing BHVR there is absolutely no way they didn't run this by the consultants they were working with first so obviously there are people from other tribes that disagree with you.
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They absolutely are and by your own logic, will never stop being moved.
The Hag is representative of certain African cultures. Ditto Plague, Artist, Oni, Spirit, HM etc. Remember the Krasue cultural appropriation discourse? The Trickster 'fetishization' discourse?
Seriously, come on. This isn't just petty, this is outright malicious. Because it happens every single time BHVR does something progressive. You're actively punishing them and yes, I'm using 'you' as a plural here, as a catch all for all of this nonsense.
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no one called them bigots. It is okay that they didn’t understand a lot of people do not. We only seek that they correct this error and remove the auric cell option of purchase. You do not understand the significance of the regalia and clearly have not even done a basic search about it.
You rather attack us a marginalized people for speaking out, maybe you are a bigot, since you’re so truly worried about being perceived as one.
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You absolutely have and will.
Remember the Unknown discourse? David discourse? Trickster discourse? Houndmaster? Krasue? Hell, I remember the whole 'Tapp is bad because he's a cop and therefore racist' discourse, because time is a flat circle.
Also…did you seriously just play the 'if you don't want to be called a bigot, you're a bigot' card?
Nobody is attacking you, unless you're saying that you've above criticism for being 'marginalized'. I'm pointing out that this sort of pettiness and wokescolding is the biggest own goal possible, and eventually you'll probably win - and lose.
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But native regalia is in fact sold all over the place in the usa. Im not sure about canada but in the usa regalia is not uncommon to be sold in stores in areas connected to natives.
So it seems that your attitude is not held by all other peoples, so probably hard to hold bhvr to that standard.
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no i don’t remember the discourse for those things. I tend to stay out of topics i have zero knowledge on especially when it comes to other peoples cultures. Speaking on things i have no knowledge about is ignorance.
you’re correct to a degree. however those are not the same. This isn’t about jim buying a random regalia sold in shop that has no connection to anyones bloodline or ancestors. Shanes is or would be however. We would never sell our own personal regalia, it is deeply personal and sacred.
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with regulation. for example, we have federal laws here that ban non-natives from selling crafts as native unless they're affiliated/enrolled or are an artisan. essentially, an actual tribe recognized by the government has to back the seller in order for their product to be on the market
most regalia is sold by actual natives, and people who often purchase it are either native themselves or are non-natives who are supporting the reservation that the artisan is from.
in canada, such things does not exist (as far as im aware) and i think that's where the gap in the bridge begins.
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canada does not have these same regulations unfortunately. Many of us still can barely get help with access to clean drinking water and lets not forget the residential school scandal up until 1998 which was a cultural genocide.
Further with bhvr being located in quebec which is notorious for their bigotry it does not surprise me at all that bhvr despite all their pro lgbtq+ stances would then step on us too to make a dollar.
Canada needs an native arts and crafts act. It is in an unfortunate truth that no one cares about our people. Which has been made especially apparent on these forums.
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The person that designed the cosmetic already got their paycheck from BHVR, they aren't losing rent money from the cosmetic being made free. The only people that would lose out are the shareholders and higher ups, and realistically I doubt they'd even notice a difference on their bottom line from this single cosmetic being free.
The request isn't that the outfit should be removed or that there is anything wrong with it being in game, the request is just that it should be free. Its weird to me that there is such pushback over wanting to make a cosmetic free.
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this. i just want the cosmetic to be accessible through shards now and that proceeds that's generated gets given back to the people. i wasn't asking for bhvr to be burned at the stake or people being robbed of their time investment. a repeat of orela's cosmetic release would be beautiful because actual people's lives could be improved while giving the respect to something culturally significant.
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So far—and someone can correct me if I'm wrong—he's the only character with a notable character trait that is that blatant. You can generally tell a lot about the characters based on their appearance or their body language. Shane already presents as a Native American, but then he wears the iconography on all of his pieces like it's a designer brand. 😭 I don't find it offensive at all, but it's overkill and makes him feel two-dimensional. You immediately view him as a symbol and not as a person.
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He's Indigenous and grew up in an Indigenous community… He is going to look and present in ways that reflect that. I recommend you watch Reservation Dogs not just because Shane's VA Dallas Goldtooth is in it but because it shows you a specific look at youth culture among a specific Indigenous community. I see nothing wrong with Shane or his portrayal, dude is sick.
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No offense, but that only makes me feel more that he's a symbol and not a person.
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