Revisiting the 60-40 balance decision

Which again, means what? If I measure from 2:00 AM - 4:00 AM and only the sweatiest of nurses are playing at that point in time then what exactly does your 2 hour average mean? Or is it a 2 month timer? 4? What exactly is the time range for your test and what makes up the average playtimes of killers during that window and what does that mean for your average kill rate? E.G. what if you measure from Jan - July interestingly enough for some reason 60% of the games were played by A/S tier killers in that time period? Then in July - Jan you measure again and for some reason the 60% metric is now populated by C- B tier killers. Is there any value in comparing your early year metric to your latter year metric? Unless the supposition is that for any time X, the kill rate is evenly distributed amongst evenly distrubed killers such that the "Average" is truly the average.

That is pretty much it. That 60% killrate includes matches where the killer was getting stomped the whole time, only for the survivor team to botch the endgame. A 4k can feel pretty damn miserable when you know the other team lost because they were screwing around too much. The close games with constant back and forth is kinda what everyone ideally WANTS, but often times instead… its the games that end with a sudden snowball that are kinda skewing the stats.

Which again, means what?

To me its a straightforward concept, but I'll try again. A target number is something that a designer thinks is a generally healthy level for something to be at. It's not the only factor that needs to be taken into consideration (neither @Clutch121 or BHVR say this). It's a general concept that can be used for anything from video game design to sports to manufacturing.

If I measure from 2:00 AM - 4:00 AM and only the sweatiest of nurses are playing at that point in time then what exactly does your 2 hour average mean? Or is it a 2 month timer? 4? What exactly is the time range for your test and what makes up the average playtimes of killers during that window and what does that mean for your average kill rate?

I'd need to know the sample size and then bust out standard deviations to give you a number, but you're probably looking at around a week or two of data to smooth out randomness, but given the frequency of which BHVR updates there probably wouldn't be any reason to look at anything smaller than a month.

But as @Clutch121 mentions, this isn't the test we came up with, its BHVR's. So whatever time measurement they currently use, just with a different target in mind.

E.G. what if you measure from Jan - July interestingly enough for some reason 60% of the games were played by A/S tier killers in that time period? Then in July - Jan you measure again and for some reason the 60% metric is now populated by C- B tier killers.

The 'some reason' here is the issue. Large samples don't just randomly change. If a number changes over a large sample you've either had a change in player base or a game design change.

To use KRs and BHVR's target numbers, if a killer had a KR from Jan to July of 60%, but 70% from August to December, then something changed. Was a perk introduced that benefited the killer? Did the killer have a hard to pick up mechanic that players have now mastered? Was it a change in maps? Is the KR change just one killer or reflective of a larger change? Was it a gradual increase over the months or sudden?

The fact that the number falls outside the range does not immediately tell you what the problem is, but it does give the designers one (though not the only) reason to start looking to see if there is a problem.

Unless the supposition is that for any time X, the kill rate is evenly distributed amongst evenly distrubed killers such that the "Average" is truly the average.

The KR target is a per killer goal, nothing said in the post changes from BHVR's stance. The only thing being discussed is changing the number of their current metric.

Except that we have very recent examples for Survivor.

I am actually interested because I can't remember all of them, and the ones which I do don't fall under the significant category.

What I do remember from the latest year:

Fog vial obliteration nerf (Partially recovered)

Basekit BT nerf (Arguably 15s was too much and we did get Elusive instead)

Sprint Burst and Vigil nerf (Also arguably Vigil was too strong for a very long time, I dislike how Sprint Burst was nerfed though)

Recent nerfs to meta perks

That's about it tbh, Vigil was indeed significant but I won't agree it wasn't need

These things would matter if they were the only thing to come for survivor side. The fog vials, as I said, were changed later, right now their use is rather niche but they are still usable as opposed to utter trash which they were after PTB.

Vigil nerf was long overdue because it affected too many things too much, but yes that's a significant change.

Sprint burst nerf did happen, but it's not like other exhaustion perks became worse because of it, they still exists and just as powerful. Sprint burst in that regard was always an outlier because it had no condition.

Basekit BT nerf was a revert to way too long 15s buff, and it still came with a new buff of gaining Elusive as well, which is a big buff to hide if the killer doesn't have clear LoS.

And recent nerfs, it is only StB and Stake out right? Or am I missing something? Either way, despite the nerf StB still has a game changing effect of slowing down the first death. And stake out Hyperfocus combo was unhealthy as hell, though I would argue it should've been Hyperfocus instead of Stake out that got special skill check treatment.

However, all these changes didn't come alone, there were buffs as well. Most noticable ones are pallet density, which I think is still a bleeding wound bhvr made themselves (Current design of killers requiring a way to counter so many pallets produced some of the least interactive killers in history starting with Krasue), and Emote Wheel with ability to see others perks for the solo q side of the game.

I will not agree that these buffs somehow are out weighted by a single Vigil, as Vigil right now is the only significant nerf

1: Talking about nerfs on whether they were deserved or not is a distraction from the issue of 'have survivors been nerfed'.

I think diminishing returns nerfing the luck builds / self unhooks was deserved, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a nerf to one of the strongest builds.

2: Looking at perks is not really as relevant as looking at how powerful they are. If high tier perks become mid and some garbage perks becomes okay, that's a net loss. Unless we're talking chaos shuffle, having a bunch of 'meh' perks doesn't really help a side.

3: Talking about things still having the potential for a game changing effect doesn't change whether it is nerfed or not. If Pain Res was reduced to 10% it could still have a game changing effect if it trigger at the right time, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be a massive nerf.

4: The comm wheel is probably the only substantial things survivors have gotten, and I think that A) its nice, but overrated on how game changing it will be B) only buffing a portion of the player base. Outside of that survivors have a few perks that provide okay effects now that used to be weaker.

5: Pallet density - we can throw map size changes in as well, but having a gazillion pallets doesn't mean as much when they are around unsafe loops.

I don't understand what sort of distraction you mean, but it's not in my argument. The issue of "have survivors been nerfed" is not an issue in my argument, because these nerfs naturally did nerf survivor, this is not debatable. My original point was addressed to post creator, as I wanted them to clarify which nerfs exactly they mean by "significant nerfs". The nerfs that happened in latest year are not all significant, some, yes, some, no.

Point 2 is void. Survivors have been nerfed, they also were buffed. Killers got nerfed, also got buffed. That's how the game goes. That's how it should go. The outliers should be addressed all the time, of both too strong and too weak spectre. The fact that bhvr isn't addressing the weaker side is a different discussion

For point 3 let's return to your example, as it is rather inaccurate. A game changing effect is extremely relevant to whether or not a perk nerf can be considered significant. A 10% pain res would fall under this category, as it has 2 parts to it's major effect: instant gen regression, and 20% of it. Nerfing either would be a significant nerf to the perk. In StB case however, the hook state significant effect was not affected, like at all. The only thing that changed was how much punishment the unhooker gets. Is the perk nerfed? Absolutely. Is it a significant nerf? Absolutely not, as it still delays first death exactly the same.

For comm wheel objectivity, let me make an example: previously, if you see that 1 of the survivors stopped repairing a gen, you had no idea why they did that. Are they going for unhook? Is the killer nearby? If you didn't act accordingly, you could either waste a lot of time moving to hook which they were already moving to, or you could not unhook before next stage entirely, which is an even worse outcome. In that sense, it is objectively a great tool for the survivor side. Though yes, you are correct, comm wheel is not a "omg this is such a mega buff" buff, but it still provides something that wasn't present before, info sharing among mute teammates.

In terms of perk changes yeah I can agree that they are uneven. Killer side in general got better and more interesting changes than survivor side. I would give it more time though to settle in, because personally I find perks like Undone to currently be riding on hype train, as I find the effect much worse than Pop due to needing more hooks and blocking the gen, therefore preventing it's passive regression.

As for Diminishing Returns. Ugh. This system ended up without a shred of doubt an absolutely utter failure. They absolutely overdid it with how much stuff it nerfed, while not affecting the meta stuff on either side in the slightest. For Survivor meta perks, they are all mostly not stacking anything with each other. Exhaustion perk, decisive, unbreakable, resurgence, etc etc. all these perks have effect which do not have any synergy with each other at simple stacking matter, so their effects remained in full. On killer side, it is exactly the same picture: most of the 4 slowdowns happen at different times or under different conditions or in different form, instant, delayed, passive etc etc. How terrible Diminishing returns ended up being for the game is it's own discussion.

Bugs shouldn't matter for said system, as they are not intended part of it, but knowing how quick some bugs are fixed sadly that can be the case. Still, I have seen many spawns with my own eyes. They are without any doubt a significant buff to the survivor side, as the macro became much simpler and easier to do. Even pre dropping, something that became much more popular with pallet density, is not a big wound on resource management, as the amount is THAT large. The killer is on the clock, so you don't need to manage resources for a very long term use.

As for tunneling, quite the opposite. If the killer wants to tunnel, the 15s endurance ain't doing nothing either. You will go down, endurance won't help you cancel that, only delay. Elusive on the other hand can actually prevent it, if withing those 10s you relocate to such a position that killer will be too far away after losing you. 15s hurt more the killers who actually didn't want to tunnel, as it was a much more weaponized timer, with 5 extra seconds you could always do both bodyblocks and reach a tile later. It was extra dum in endgame where you could yolo to gates.

And honestly, you say "Tunneling has been off the charts in my games", I say "I have barely encountered tunnelers in my game". These are empty subjective statements

I've never had a problem with the 60/40 balance of kills to escapes. It's the way we get to that number that has always been my beef!

I think it strikes the right balance thematically without becoming too frustrating or overwhelming for the Survivor side. At the same time, it makes the casual Killer experience a little bit more bearable to have Trials in which you can achieve your goal of sacrificing most of the lobby at least some of the time. That said, I've never been able to hit a 40% personal escape rate over my entire DBD career (and I can often go a long time without escaping at all), or a 60% kill rate with any of my mains.

At the very least, at the casual end of things I think the game has to be balanced more in the Killer's favor, or else the role will stop being appealing or approachable to newcomers and the Killer won't be scary enough to maintain the horror aspect for Survivors. One of the reasons I think DBD has succeeded where other asyms have failed is that being the 1 against the 4 doesn't totally suck as an experience. I only play one other asym (Ghostbusters: Spirits Unleashed) and let me tell you, I dread being forced to play as the ghost every once in a while. I just feel so powerless in the role and I don't think I've ever won a single round. If playing Killer in DBD felt that awful, I'd probably never touch the side by choice. You sort of expect to lose more Survivor games and to win more Killer games.

My main problem is with how that balance is achieved. In my view, the Killer in DBD still has far too many easy ways to turnaround an otherwise totally lost game (and in some cases, immediately win with a sudden snowball). I'm sure we've all seen 2 hooks turning into a comfortable win for the Killer in endgame because of perks like NOED. I don't have a problem with NOED or sudden Killer wins if DBD is meant to be a goofy unbalanced mess. If that's the vision, then both sides should have access to broken stuff, but less and less I feel like that is the case as stronger things on the Survivor side receive nerf after nerf, all while Killers become increasingly more powerful. Add to that the comeback mechanics the Killer always has in their back pocket (right up until everyone is home and dry at the exit gates), and you have the potential for Survivor side frustration.

But at this point, I've come to accept that the game is designed for the Killer to create opportunities to win at any time in a trial, even if that's sometimes at the expense of the enjoyment of the other 4 people. That's just the way it is and it doesn't matter how cheesy I think some of those mechanics might be. I do sometimes wish there was another way to reach the same 60/40 result and still keep both sides happy with the game. But maybe that just isn't possible, or the player base is too set in its ways to consider any alternatives.

Point 2 is void. Survivors have been nerfed, they also were buffed. Killers got nerfed, also got buffed. That's how the game goes.

@cogsturning addresses this, but this is over the top. You have to look at the extent of the changes, not just you had some of each.

It'd be like saying I lost ten dollars, but then gained two dollars, so it all evens out. No, you need to compare the values.

In StB case however, the hook state significant effect was not affected, like at all. The only thing that changed was how much punishment the unhooker gets. Is the perk nerfed? Absolutely. Is it a significant nerf? Absolutely not, as it still delays first death exactly the same.

If we added a 25% hindered to the killer after they got a pain res, would it be a substantial nerf?

By what you're saying we shouldn't consider it significant because the nerf isn't to the core value.

You're trying to create word games around a simple scenario - comparing a perk before and after the nerf. Earlier the killer had 40 seconds to get value off the exposed, now they have 120 seconds, the survivor gives them sounds/blood trail, and even after all this time the survivor very well might now need to heal, where they didn't before, and if the killer finds them in that time they still get value from the nerf.

There's no way to compare the two and say the latter is not substantially nerfed unless you're definition of substantially is 'perk no longer usable'.

if you see that 1 of the survivors stopped repairing a gen, you had no idea why they did that. Are they going for unhook? Is the killer nearby

Sure you did.

If someone else is in chase, they are going for the unhook.

If the chase meter starts on them, they are being chased.

If a totem starts getting done you know just as soon now as you did before.

Neither before the unhook or now do you have any more game knowledge about whether their decision is correct or not.

And if we're adding in 'some times soloq players are illogical', that extends to the usability of the chat wheel as well in how much of a buff we evaluate it as.

The comm wheel gives you a little more certainty on what is happening. If it had some more options it would be stronger, but as of now its generally just giving the basic things that would be knowable anyway.

OTR- very significant but a little close to the self unhook changes, 2 months out. The perk back then still played second fiddle to DS.

As an anti-tunnel perk, yes, but the passive 80 second benefit it gave was useful even after you did a conspicuous action.

Unhook endurance- was buffed then nerfed back to original time, not relevant.

I guess this depends on your starting time. It would be weird to bring back insta completing gens with BNPs and say its not relevant because we're just going back to the original.

Also the I think your idea that pallet density created killers like krasue is wrong, after krasue, sure, but pallet density almost seemed like a change that was made specifically because of krasue and Kaneki. Check the release date for krasue vs pallet density.

I didn't say anything like this. That's Artimenius and I don't think I've touched on this point.

Avoiding nerfs already addressed by Artimus.

I don't think it is, but you might be thinking of something different than I am.

I got the general idea, but quoting multiple times is allowed or using the at symbol and a name for clarity.

May this knowledge serve you well in the long life this forum will surely have.

Would be a start, I think.

Apologies for the long delay, had one hell of a busy day

I mean, in the vacuum, it's undeniable the survivor side has been nerfed. It's also undeniable it has been buffed. I am not sure why exactly you think it needs some sort of proof or confirmation, it is a matter of fact that survivor role did get nerfed. At the same time, the nerfs received in majority relate to perks, while the buffs received relate to core gameplay, and especially in macro sector, which is where the buffs are tremendously impactful.

I understand that from a micro point of view, the nerfs are significant. However, I don't view the game as micro alone. From a macro standpoint, these nerfs in general are nothing. They are not significant in the slightest. Vigil or Sprint burst for example, mostly chase/put of chase perks. Don't do much for macro. Same story with windows, especially cause nerf is cushioned by Five moves. In terms of macro, the significant nerf is the basekit BT one, as it doesn't allow to both bodyblock and reach tile as effectively still. Bodyblocking can prevent further snowball, which is a massive macro benefit. Also the syringes and styptics, as they could allow for further macro benefit by saving time in healing/extending chase.

However, this is still in the vacuum, because if you want to discuss how significant latest nerfs are, you need to bring in the killer side, the map design, latest 3-4 years of changes, overall role power, etc. etc. There are way more factors to take into account before it can be judged.

The actual significant changes from a macro standpoint would be addressing ALL meta perk, or the majority at least. The perk nature is that, if you nerf 1-2 meta perks, you still have 7-8 others, they will simply become more picked. The reason why meta has always been so stale is that, while 1-2 meta perks might get a nerf for other side, they would always be replaced by older meta. Heck, take a look at the meta perks of both sides: These are ancient perks, they have been like that for years and didn't change because nothing new ever came close.

This is why I don't really consider latest nerfs to be significant, from a macro point, barely anything changed. The utter failure of Diminishing Returns is partially at it, as it prevents other perks from possibly being a meta together, while not affecting ancient meta.

However, with how many changes bhvr announced to other meta perks, this is actually becoming a concern for me personally. I do not like it. In the slightest. Over this year, a lot of frankly horrible designed killers were created, all to make them "Competitive" with current issues created by pallet density. If this goes same way as well, we will have so many killers with braindead uninteractive designs like Myers, Clown, and new killers which have everything in their kit.

That did happen of course, but this change lasted a single patch, in 9.3.2 this was the revert of 9.3.0

I now remember that clearer, there was indeed a patch in which they pretty much gutted pallet density tiles, but this didn't last long, as it was indeed just doing same thing but in other direction.

So in the end, all the realms listed were still very much affected by pallet density, and remain so to this day.

I will take a look into 9.2.0 to see if anything else was changed, but if it is only crotus prenn, then the point is not as valid

Well, viewing how killers play is a matter of taste, though it feels weird to me that you consider killers strats to be "cheese", when they are, well, exactly that, just strats. Can I ask you something? What would you say is the benefit for the killer in playing "fair"?

Sadly yes, the forums won't last long enough for this discussion, which would take a long time. I disagree that macro of perks is irrelevant though, macro is essential part of dead by daylight, as the whole game is often viewed as "being the most efficient". As a mixed player, it's pretty interesting to me that majority of survivor players view this game as a more simple micro "chase simulator", when it's macro is very important. Granted, macro on survivor side is not that complex, and usually ends up pretty boring to play efficiently.

"significant nerfs across a large list of meta perks does translate to significant nerfs to the survivor role". Yes, I said that thing exactly. Significant nerfs across the large list of meta perks will absolutely translate into it being significant nerfs, and not just for one side, for both of them. But what was nerfed in the latest year, is nowhere close to a "large list". A single Vigil will not be crucial for a meta. Neither will me DMS or nowhere to hide. These are but pieces of iceberg, nerfing just them will not change much.

I've seen the loops as both sides. They are not "unsafe" in general. Many of them are not safe completely, but they are still very much usable. It is honestly important to define what is considered safe/unsafe. This tiny loop with a round hay on farm? That is usable for a short period of time, pretty much a guaranteed hit if pallet control is given. Personally, consider this am unsafe loop. A pallet in-between 2 lengthy stacks of hay? Rather safe, can be outplayed but has the benefit of seeing killer, so they can't mindgame. A pallet in multiple stacked haybales? Uber safe against tall killers, as their head can be seen from above.

You may not be denying that the survivor side was nerfed but you are underplaying those nerfs at every turn and overplaying buffs at every turn. If the chat wheel didn't help then it isn't a significant buff and if it didn't help then it isn't powerful, a tool that doesn't help cannot be strong. If it was strong it would have helped, you won't even point to anything that the chat wheel can say that something else wouldn't because you don't actually have any clue. One moment these are not significant nerfs because they only effect micro while we got macro "buffs," then you agree that those macro "buffs" don't actually help, you are arguing against yourself at this point. SWF absolutely picked vigil because of the AOE team value, just because that wasn't all it did doesn't make that any less true.

I'm sorry are you asking me to provide a detailed video essay on loops pre, post, during 9.3.0 and 9.3.2? I am no magician to do that. The screenshots are what was written in the patch notes, I don't plan on going out of my way to make a full detailed evaluation on what happened during these.

Then what exactly are you basing these being nerfs to killer on? Nothing, absolutely nothing real, if its just you saying what you hear your favorite CC say then you are nothing more than a parrot, real evidence requires real effort, put some in.

Were main buildings factually nerfed though? Last time I played on asylum, which wasn't long ago, the main looks exactly the same as it did a year ago.

YES. If you found Asylum unchanged then you don't actually play much, are blind, or lying. Asylum main had pallets downstairs, those are all gone. Gas heaven had a breakable door that is gone, Mother's dwelling had a window in the back (and you can still find it open in 2v8), those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. Not every main got hit but a bunch did and its absolutely hilarious that you pointed out one that did. Like I said, you don't actually know what you are talking about, just talking out of your ass.

I am not against changes but unless those changes BEGIN by looking at ways to reduce the discrepancy between killer strengths you won't get anywhere. I am not against the changes to Vigil or Sprint Burst, I am against the continued narrative that these matched the changes that killer received and I am against the narrative that survivor remains in some strong state, it isn't and hasn't been for a long time unless you are amongst the best survivors in the world. Even if you touch meta perks it won't actually change the meta because those will just get switched out for other perks that do the same thing unless you nerf every single one that does the same thing. Even then tunneling would remain the meta, you want to change that then you need to target tunneling.

Out of sheer curiousity, I decided to play some soloq survivor and see the wheel in action more. Oh god, I have never enjoyed the soloq that much like ever. Genuinely, the wheel felt amazing. I will confess, last time I played survivor solo q was like 2-3 days before wheel dropped, so my view on it was indeed off. I am now 100% sure wheel is a massive buff, but a buff that was required 10 years ago, I will die on this hill.

Even had 2 tunnelers, though they did it only after 2 gens left remaining, so perfectly understandable. Didn't help them, as there were decisive strikes, and we were pushing gens like crazy. Honestly, with how often I saw 1 chased and 3 others were actually doing gens made me feel like I am not in proper solo q, where people prefer to do anything but gens. Even had a killer who had to resort to slugging and oh my God this was the least effective slugging I ever saw. The teammates kept splitting when told to by chat wheel, and kept going for slugs safely and telling others via "Going for unhook".

Of course, 2 games I did lose, interestingly those games had chat wheel barely used. That, and, well, 1 loss isn't proper because there was a Meg who gave up first chase and threw the game by going next.

I will be playing soloq much more now, but I blame you all for baiting me to try it out properly. Thanks to you, I am now enjoying this game again, just when I finally stopped playing it because I no longer enjoyed it. With solo q, of all things, dam!

Side note: I checked main of crotus prenn, first floor indeed doesn't spawn pallets now. I must've had too old of a memory, as I remember it spawning in summer when I last played on that map, been a while since I got it. Good riddance honestly, the first floor already has 2 strong windows

Edit: I even saw shoulder the burden used in solo q, and it actually switched the game massively in our favor, genuinely pog momet