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Gen Rushing Solutions
First of all, I don't hold it against survivors for efficiently working on generators. That's just smart play. But at the higher ranks, it really is an issue when the killer barely gets the first survivor on a hook and 2 gens have already popped. I'm not talking a long protracted chase sequence either. High level survivors are just crazy fast at finishing gens!
So let's talk about possible solutions that are fair to everyone. Here is a concept I've been thinking about. If the average rank of all players in a lobby is between 10-1 then survivors get a 25% handicap on gen repair speed during the first 2 minutes of the match. Gen rushing isn't an issue for newer players and they shouldn't be unfairly punished.
Once a generator is at 50% repair status, survivors will not be able to progress further without finding and installing a part for the generator. When a survivor reaches half repair state they will see an icon on the generator showing the color and shape of a part at which point the part will spawn into the world at least 32 meters away from the generator. If a survivor is within 16 meters of a part, they will be able to see the aura of the part. The aura will be color coded to a specific generator. Once the survivor has picked up a part, they will be able to see the aura of the generator that it goes to.
Multiple survivors can pick up the same part, but once the first survivor installs the part it will be removed from all survivors inventories and survivors that had the part will no longer be able to see the aura of the generator. When a survivor with a part returns to the generator, they will receive a 1000 bloodpoint bonus for installing the part. If the generator is no longer at 50% repair status due to the killer kicking the generator while the survivor was looking for the part when they install the part it will repair the generator progress up to 25%, but will not raise the repair state past 50%.
If one or more survivor(s) are dead or DC then any generator that hasn't already reached the "part missing" stage will not be missing parts.
Brand New Part will lose all current text and be replaced with the ability to repair a generator without having to find the specific part. Using the part will consume it from the player's inventory.
I would also like to see it changed so when killers kick a gen, there is 5% immediate damage to the generator. That would put a little bit more power back in the killer's hands fighting gen progress. I'm open to other ideas and suggestions.
EDIT: Removed old idea and added new one due to feedback.
Comments
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If people get punished for ranking up then they’ll de-rank themselves and ruin newer players experience.
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Only time I am not genrushed is if I hook two people early or I am up against dumb squad who think they can bully Myers all they want.
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Different difficulties at different ranks would just create incentive to derank or always play swf with at least one person who is not within the "high" ranks to get easier matches.
I like the 5% immediate damage when a gen is kicked idea. Most of the time it isn't worth it to kick a gen since regression is so slow and a survivor can just walk by and tap it to stop the regression.
I like suggestions of adding other objectives or something along the lines of you have to find a part to repair a generator. Once you find a part you put it in a gen, and anyone can then repair that gen. Could possibly even change the Brand New Part addon along with this into essentially bringing a part into the game with you so you can start repairing right away.
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The handicap thing is not really needed, I could see the 5% instant regression so that gen tap in the middle of a chase is removed.
People dont want to hold M1 forever so the community has asked about new objectives for a long time, we can only wait now...
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Rather than talking stats, what I really want to know is if there is even a viable strategy a killer can take to deal with this long standing issue. I've had a number of games in the past where it seems like 3 minutes into the game, 2 generators are already repaired, before I can even find anyone.
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They won't increase gen times cause survivors say its boring and unfun so our only option is a new mandatory objective or hell some sort of BP pinata that will waste their time but give them big points so killers can hunt longer.
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The de-ranking concerns are valid. Players would definitely abuse that. I like the idea finding and installing parts to repair a generator. It needs to be fair to survivors and actually buy time for killers. Here is what I propose:
Once a generator is at 50% repair status, survivors will not be able to progress further without finding and installing a part for the generator. When a survivor reaches half repair state they will see an icon on the generator showing the color and shape of a part at which point the part will spawn into the world at least 32 meters away from the generator. If a survivor is within 16 meters of a part, they will be able to see the aura of the part. The aura will be color coded to a specific generator. Once the survivor has picked up a part, they will be able to see the aura of the generator that it goes to.
Multiple survivors can pick up the same part, but once the first survivor installs the part it will be removed from all survivors inventories and survivors that had the part will no longer be able to see the aura of the generator. When a survivor with a part returns to the generator, they will receive a 1000 bloodpoint bonus for installing the part. If the generator is no longer at 50% repair status due to the killer kicking the generator while the survivor was looking for the part when they install the part it will repair the generator progress up to 25%, but will not raise the repair state past 50%.
Brand New Part will lose all current text and be replaced with the ability to repair a generator without having to find the specific part. Using the part will consume it from the player's inventory. Comments?
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What really needs to happen is there needs to be a cap to how fast a gen can be done. A gen should NEVER be finished faster than 50 seconds. NEVER. Doesn't matter how many survivors are on it or if they have toolboxes or not. The gen should NEVER get done faster than 50 seconds.
Next there needs to be some sort of buffer to prevent multiple gens from popping all at once. Something like, if 3 gens pop too quickly (say all within 60 seconds of each other) it will cause all other gens to overheat and lose like 50% progress (total progress, so -40s basically). This forces survivors to pace the gens at least for the start.
Doing these 2 things will greatly slow down the game at higher ranks where it is needed, but won't negatively affect low ranks because they simply won't ever meet the cap for gen speed and/or they won't be popping gens super fast to overheat them.
More objectives won't work. Survivors will just find a way to rush that too. You end up with a situation where you seriously punish low rank survivors, and only get a net gain of like 30 seconds at high ranks. Finding parts is dumb too because sometimes that isn't an option. Sometimes you NEED to finish the gen now and not later.
There simply needs to be limits to how fast gens can go. This would only affect high rank survivors that blow through gens super fast. Anything else you do will just hurt the low rank survivors.
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I can understand your frustration with "gen rushing" but your idea is a bit ridiculous. looking for parts to repair a generator would just be a nightmare situation and if there is only 2 people left in the match.... it would just cause survivor mains ######### to the point they quit.
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Both killers and survivors have been asking for the "looking for parts" idea, I dont see why they would ######### about it...
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@thesuicidefox "More objectives won't work. Survivors will just find a way to rush that too."
Survivors will find a way to efficiently handle a 2nd objective, but the objective still needs to be done and doing so will consume time.
If you give survivors more work and don't change anything for the killer, it will lead to the killer having more time for chasing survivors.
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I like the parts idea, but I think they should be generic and not coded. I see people taking a part and just running off with it. You would be unable to complete the gen if it was one part for one specific gen.
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My point is it won't consume enough time to significantly effect top tier survivors, which is where the problem is in the first place. All you do with a second objective is slow down bad survivors, who don't rush gens anyway. The gain isn't worth completely screwing over bad survivors.
You need something specific to target the good survivors if you want to have a positive impact on the game.
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You do make a good point.. a repair speed cap should be implemented.. the overheating could be like a waiting period (gens can't be repaired) and maybe the killer could get like a little boost from the entity during that wait period in MS, attack cooldown, pickup, pallet break, etc... that could be interesting
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Excellent and fair idea.
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Just master NuRSe if you want ti counter gen rush
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@Coriander You missed the part where I said multiple survivors can pick up the same part. And since you can see the aura of the generator it goes to highlighted with the matching color there shouldn't be any mistake where it goes. There is no way for survivors to screw each other over looking for or picking up parts.
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They could add new objectives, but its not really necessary.
The gens themselves simple need to be gated.
That is, when the game starts, only 1 of the 7 generators can be worked on, all the rest of the generators would be blocked. The killer should not know which ones are blocked.
Every 2 mins an additionally generator is unlocked.
That way the general duration of the game is 100% controlled by the developers. With 7 total generators available, it would take 12 mins for them all to become "unlocked". At 5 gens to win the game length would always be guaranteed to be over 8 mins
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That really doesn't seem fair to survivors. The goal isn't to make the game unfair to survivors. The goal is to put the brakes on the game a little bit.
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it can be calibrated to any game lenght, if the minimum game length of 8 mins is too long you only need to reduce the lock out time...
if you believe the fair game length is 5 mins then make it 1 min each.
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@thesuicidefox The problem with your idea is there is nothing stopping survivors from 99ing all gens, then just popping them within the "cooldown" constraints. Wouldn't add much time to the game unfortunately.
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The more these types of ideas come up the more I like em...
An additional objective could hurt newer/inexperienced players badly if but something like this would be quite good
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Id first like to see statistics released, excluding games with DCs, that shows throughout ranks that killer is averaging less than 2K per game. If that’s the case, we can talk about slowing survivors down only. Otherwise, to extend games things need to happen for BOTH sides. I don’t see why generator repair should be slowed down but tunneling (aka “kill-rushing”) should be left as is. Also, with anything involving the slowing of gens, we have to have hard measures against camping. Campers should never be buffed, which would be the case if killer remains untouched but gens are slowed. That’s common sense. Chaser penalty doesn’t cut it, hook progression should slow to a crawl also if the killer is standing in whatever proximity of the hook and not in chase. This would compensate for it taking longer to repair gens. That’s only fair.
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the only solution on genrush its making a second objective for survivors an example find a part for the gen that you cannot start unless you have a part also if they did that then they need to find another solution of campers
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If you 99 gens then killer can kick them.
If you pop 3 quick then it regresses all the others.
So yes it adds time. No survivors will 99 every gen on the map. Maybe 2 at most but you are talking about something that doesn't and wouldn't happen IRL.
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I'd be down for finding a solution to both gen rush and tunneling. They both are somewhat problematic for slightly different but related reasons
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Tunneling fix is Decisive Strike
Genrush fix is... ehm... no play
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If the system was in place that you were suggesting and I am playing survivor and working on a gen, I see a gen just popped and know I will be penalized for finishing my gen, I would 99 it. Go hide nearby, if killer kicks it I would go tap it. Then go pop it once I am no longer penalized for doing so.
Exciting gameplay. Yes it would happen if that was the objective. What else are the survivors supposed to do during the time they have to wait to pop a gen? You see the issue with adding a generic time gate? There is nothing for one side to do during that time other than hide and wait for the next time gate.
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Then you are wasting time and the killer is gaining time. You would be better served going to find a new gen to work on if that's your plan.
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Either way the system would be punishing survivors for doing well, which is never good game design. Good game design would be to extend the length of a match fluidly and make it fun for both sides. Any generic time gate system is not fluid and very predictable.
Adding another objective like the one I originally suggested in this thread would be a way to extend the match, give both sides something to do during that extra time, and would be dynamic to how well either side does. Not just some system that says "the game has to last at least this long"
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Honestly the game is really hard for survivors if you get an early down or an early kill with mori or simply tunneling!
The comeback of the 3 survivors with 4 generators is next to impossible,been there as a survivor and killer, and I'm sure you've also been there as a killer&survivor!
However the early generators poping before the first hook is infuriating aswell,both these problems could be solved by giving survivors more ways to escape the killers as once you're found by the killer the only thing you can do is loop as long as you can!
And giving the survivors a second objective!
Imo I think both sides should have a chance at winning(2 kills counted for killers before the BS ranking system).
They could also add a fighting system for survivors,given they find or bring a gun such as a flare gun that blinds or stuns(with add ons)!
Some people will disagree with the whole fighting back system,but I think it's a refreshing new mechanic necessary for the overdone gameplay.
And if they try to argue that F13 died because of the fighting system,that is not true.The game died because of the lawsuit(no new updates)and game breaking bugs that the community tought will never be solved!
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Like I told you, adding a new objective is too oppressive to survivors. Low rank survivors will be hurt and high rank survivors will barely be phased. It won't make a difference. Time gates are the ONLY way to actually slow down the game such that only the best survivors are affected.
There is nothing wrong with making it so that you can't blaze through gens super fast. If 3 gens pop, and all other gens regress, there's nothing actually stopping the survivors from continuing to rush gens. They can still do it, there is no need to 99 a gen and sit around and wait. You are wasting time, it would still be more effective to just finish the gens when you can finish them. Only if you do them too fast you can potentially lose time on other gens. That means in order to do them most efficiently you need to finish gens at a steady pace instead of 2-3 at a time. It's the only way to slow down the game at high ranks without completely screwing over low ranks.
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How is a new objective more oppressive then a time gate? At least with an additional objective the survivors still have an opportunity to rush it and be good at it. A time gate is punishing those who are good at the game. Trying to implement a system that would punish skilled survivors and not effect unskilled survivors kind of defeats the purpose of the game.
A game should be something that challenges you and be something you can improve at, not a generic forced experience that you cannot influence.
Yes an additional objective would be harder for unskilled players, but that is the whole point of being unskilled at a game. You improve.
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How is a new objective more oppressive then a time gate? At least with an additional objective the survivors still have an opportunity to rush it and be good at it. A time gate is punishing those who are good at the game. Trying to implement a system that would punish skilled survivors and not effect unskilled survivors kind of defeats the purpose of the game.
Because a time gate only affects the top tier survivors that would otherwise be doing gens very fast. Low tier survivors (or survivors that pace the gens) won't have to worry about time gates.
What's oppressive about a second objective is that it disproportionately affects top tier and low tier survivors. Low tier survs will be hit very hard while high tier survs will still rush objectives. You end up hurting survivors that don't gen rush while only making it mildly more difficult for ones that do.
Case and point Ruin. Ruin is the closest thing we have to a second objective. Against low tier survivors, Ruin completely destroys their ability to do gens. Against high tier survivors it does so little you might as well not even use it. This is how second objectives would play out.
Low tier survivors already have a very steep learning curve, so to ask them to do MORE stuff just makes that worse.
The only reasonable way to stop gen rush is to put in checks to make sure you can't do gens super fast. If gen rushing isn't possible then it's not a problem anymore.
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I understand your logic and argument. We can agree to disagree I suppose. <3
You seem to be more in the mindset of putting rules in place that would put a skillcap on the game for those who have become too good.
Imo it is a healthier choice for the game to instead increase and expand the existing system to allow for a higher skillcap. This does create more of a learning experience for new players, but in the end a more satisfying experience and greater sense of accomplishment.
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So the main objections I see so far are the following:
1.) New objectives would be too difficult or punishing for new players.
It's true that there would be a learning curve, but if it is done correctly I think this would be fairly intuitive and simple. Once you reach 50% gen progress is stopped, the survivor is stopped from working on the gen, and a message stating "PART MISSING" shows up on the generator with an icon showing the shape of the part. Then if the survivor is within a very generous 16 meter range, the part's aura will be displayed to the survivor. Once the part is picked up, the aura of the generator is displayed showing where they need to take it. I would also be in support of giving survivors in the rank 20-16 range a bonus to repair speed to offset the extra time needed to find parts.
2.) It's not fair or reasonable to make the game more difficult for survivors without some kind of compensation.
I don't disagree with this actually. I would be fine with survivors getting something in the way of compensation as long as it is reasonable.
3.) It would be too oppressive if the killer has the lead. Working on gens that require finding parts would be too difficult if there are only 2-3 survivors and multiple gens still needing finished.
This is a fair criticism. I would be fine with a system that made it so that generators that haven't reached the "part needed" stage would not be missing parts if one or more survivor(s) are dead or missing.
Hopefully that addressed most the major concerns or objections.
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Like @LDominating said this is a like double-edged sword. On one hand it can help killers who dont get kill a survivor early on, but also hurt survivors who lost a survivor early game.
I say rather than adding a new mechanic to gen repairing, make it so 120-140 seconds into a game the generators repair more slowly giving killers time to set traps, and still allow 3 survivors to have a chance.
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@TheRoyalOwl I already addressed this. If one or more survivors are dead or missing (DC) then any generator that hasn't reached the "part missing" stage will not need a part. That way if the killer is winning, the remaining survivors still have a fair chance to come back and escape.
Btw, I think your suggestion is backwards. The penalty should be during the first 120-140 seconds, not after.
Post edited by Dreamnomad on0 -
@thesuicidefox There are a couple problems with your recommendation. The biggest of which is that it won't actually accomplish anything. A generator "speed limit" of sorts isn't an awful idea, but you are talking about something that is absurdly rare. This is your primary suggestion:
"if 3 gens pop too quickly (say all within 60 seconds of each other) it will cause all other gens to overheat and lose like 50% progress (total progress, so -40s basically)."
So let's play this scenario out shall we? I'm the killer. At the start of the game it takes me 45 seconds to locate a survivor. It takes me an additional 30 seconds to chase and down the survivor. 10 more seconds to pick up and put the survivor on the hook. As I start to walk away from the hooked survivor 3 gens pop almost simultaneously. What exactly does your suggestion do to slow the survivors down?
Maybe the generator that the survivor I chased worked on loses 20%ish progress? After all, the other 3 survivors haven't even had a chance to really start a new generator yet. They just finished theirs remember? So how does this even help? The answer is that it doesn't. Neither one of your recommendations would have any meaningful impact on the game.
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Stop trying to handicap the survivors even more all they have been getting is nerfed any good killer can apply pressure and keep generators from getting done so if you can't do that then you are bad killer and need to GIT GUD
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Okay so like, the exact details of my idea need testing. Maybe it should be 2 gens at 30 seconds. Maybe it should completely regress all other gens. IDK. My point is that there needs to be limits to how fast gens can be done. NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK. Not second objectives, not forcing survivors to find a gas can, nothing else will work. All these other ideas do is screw over low tier survivors. High tier survivors will find ways to just rush these new objectives, and you end up not fixing the problem only making the game worse for players that don't even gen rush.
You need something targeted to the high tier survivors to slow down the game. If you don't specifically address that you're not fixing the problem. If you add these new objectives you are changing the fundamentals of the game, which is bad. The game has established dynamics already and if you mess with that you just screw up the game. You don't want to add MORE mechanics because it just over saturates the game with a bunch of garbage dynamics that do nothing to actually solve the problem.
I have a few SWF groups I play with that are all top tier survivors, including myself. We can finish all 5 gens AND totems in under 4 minutes. Considering that totems are the closest analog to a second objective, that right there proves my point that any new objectives you throw into the mix will just get rushed at high levels and do nothing to actually slow down the game. You need an actual speed limiter if you want to accomplish that. Furthermore, a speed limiter would only affect groups such as mine, leaving low tier survivors or solos to have more or less the same experience as they do now.
You guys pushing for second objectives have this idea it will magically slow down the game, when it won't. Again 5 gens and totems in 4 minutes. If we didn't do the totems we could probably do it 30 seconds faster. That's literally all you will get out of adding new objectives. It won't fix anything.
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@thesuicidefox I've already addressed most of your objections. The change can basically be made "idiot proof". Rank 20-16 players can also be given extra bonuses to help with the training wheels. They can make a glowing trail that only the survivor can see that goes directly from the generator to the part's location for all I care. They can give them a bonus to repair speed to offset the travel time to and from the generator to the part. By the time the survivor gets to rank 15 they won't need the hand holding any more. Once a survivor dies or DC's, they won't need to look for parts anymore either. So survivors still have an opportunity to come back if they are losing at any rank.
Despite your assertion that high rank survivors won't be effected, you are simply wrong. Yes, they will be more experienced at finding the parts. But there is no way to shortcut the fact that they will need to spend an extra 30 seconds or so running to and from the generators. The time spent running around acts as a form of brakes in the early game. Which is what we both agree needs to happen.
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So basically we need to make all these new crazy mechanics to make up for the fact that the extra objectives will screw over low rank survivors. And you don't see anything wrong with that? At this point you are changing the fundamentals of the game. Perks will need reworks. Killer powers will need reworks. Items/add-ons will need reworks. This is bad for the game.
The solution to gen rush has to be unobtrusive to the core mechanics of the game. It has to only affect high tier survivors and not low tier survivors. New objectives do neither of these things.
Look, this idea of second objectives sound good on paper but it won't make a difference. Like I said, I play with a group that can do all 5 gens and totems in under 5 minutes. Ruin or not doesn't matter. We just rush everything, and killer doesn't have much they can do. Yea maybe a second objective will slow us down a little bit but not enough to make any sort of difference. All it does is screw over low tier survivors by making the game THAT much harder for them. Even during the Hallowed Blight event, if survivors were in a group they could rush the plants too. It doesn't matter what you throw at them, survivors will rush it. The only reasonable option is to put time stops so that rushing isn't possible.
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