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sWf iS oP
So now that we have statistics out on how often you actually come up against a FULL SWF team (the highest being 6% on PC), and how little it actually matters in terms of survival rate (solo was like 41% and a full team was around 49%), can we stop whining about how SWF is this game breaking OP thing that needs a huge nerf. Clearly it makes VERY little difference.
If your whole play style relies on your opponents not being able to communicate with each other and you can't catch them otherwise, maybe you just need to get better at the game.
And I'm not saying it makes NO difference because I prefer to cue up with friends and know that someone will come and save me at some point when I get caught, but the difference is minimal.
Comments
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The sample size was small, and therefore hard to make an accurate assessment of the actual effect. They also (I don't believe) had it broken down by rank either. I imagine those two factors leave the data a bit skewed. I'm not saying your assessment is wrong. I'm simply saying drawing a conclusion from this is premature.
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The statistics clearly shows, that the more SWFs you have, the higher your survival rate gets, therefor it offers a non reproducible advantage in comparison to solos and no in game mechanic to date can sufficiently close this gap, thus SWFs are OP!
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Everyone knows rank does not mean much in this game. You have trash killers who camp and tunnel their way to rank 1 and you have insanely good killers who hang out around rank 10 because the queue times are better. Likewise, you have survivors who get carried to red rank by a good team, and you have some survivors who are insanely good but like to hang out in lower ranks for queue times and to bully baby killers.
Of course the data is not a set in stone indicator, but it still says something.
And yes. that is what the data shows (which is also what I said so congrats I guess for reading??). I ALSO said that the increase in survival rate is insignificant and makes very little difference. 41% solo. 42% with a 2 man group. 46% with 3 man group. 49% with 4 man group.
So the difference between me running a solo game with no communication and running in a full squad of my friends where all of us can communicate is only 8%. That's not "OP" or game shattering.
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I'd imagine low rank Survivor's would be getting less benefit out of SWF compared to high rank Survivors.
We would need to see it separated by rank in order to be sure.
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I, as a killer main, do NOT want to see SWF go away.
But let's be honest...a group of 4 rank 2 survivors is not as effective as a group of 4 rank 2 survivors using voice coms. THAT is a fact.
This game can balance perk for perk...without a doubt. For most every aspect of the game, there is a perk or offset.
Don't like flashlights, take Lightborn. Don't like pallets, take Spirit Fury. Not good at looping, take Metal of Man. Need heals, Self Care. The list goes on and on....what will NEVER be balanced is the chance that the survivors are using real time information. It just cannot be done. Buff a killer strong enough, fast enough, reduce hooks needed to sacrifice, and you have just blown balance for survivors without voice coms out of the water. I would say give SWF limited perks MIGHT work, but I haven't ran a perks or add on with my Dweet for weeks now, and I'm still above a 70% survival rate.
Might be interesting though. In SWF, 4 players, 8 perks split between them...in ANY combination...2 survivors with 4 perks, 2 with no perks....all 4 with 2 perks each. My be fun.
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Again rank is not a good measurement of skill as it currently stands. People DC and de-rank on purpose to get to lower ranks.
Also how will the game account for rank in these situations. Before the emblem system re-work (and when I had a lot more time on my hands) I was consistently at rank 1 while my friends were in the purples, greens, and in some cases yellow. So when there's a rank 1, rank 4, rank 10, and rank 12 survivor team up against a rank 9 killer, whose rank is being accounted for in these statistics? It's not a viable option to break those statistics down by rank
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8% is much more than you're giving credit for. A survival rate of nearly 50% for a 4man swf is what the data shows. That stat only is pretty weighty, but on its own it isn't more than a cool factoid about something people already knew. Just like people already knew that the amount of full 4mans was going to be less than every other configuration of swf and much less than solo queue players.
What we know is that teams that work as a coordinated team increase their chances of survival in the short term. I would now like to see what this information looks like in long term. Maybe over the course of six months. Also don't equate statistics with strength or game feel. For that you need to go case by case which would be a different set of data that would take much much longer to generate and compile.
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I don't disagree with any of that. I agree that having a 4 man group and being able to communicate increases your chance of living. In fact, I would even argue that it brings the game to a level of balance in MY mind (2 kills and 2 escapes is my idea of a balanced game but I know MANY people disagree with that).
Once again, I know SWF is stronger than solo queue in every way. What I'm saying is that the strength is not game breaking.
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@NuclearBurrito That was my main point behind mentioning the lack of distinction between the ranks.
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OP = over powered
And as you pointed out so nicely they are between 1-8% over the base power of survivors.
Would you advocate for a 8% action speed buff for solos? Or would you prefer a more individual 1/5/8% nerf according to SWF members?
If 8% is no big deal, why doing we give it a try?
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Wouldn't that punish killers giving solos high stats?
This is how I see it.
With 4 people on a team, 1 person is 25%, 2 people is 50% and so on.
49% survival rate basically means that on average with a 4 man squad, 2 people will always escape and 2 people will always die.
41% for solo survivors means on average, between 1-2 will always escape and 2-3 will always die.
But 41% is still closer to 50% of the team surviving than it is to 25% of the team surviving. It might just be that one of the two survivors was on last hook or barely escape. So mathematically, that 8% survival rate still adds up to about 2 survivors escaping each match, but just leans slightly more towards a third kill for the killer.
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If they chose to buff solos, the killer can be adjusted to the new baseline.
If they chose to give nerf the SWF 1/5/8% of the action speed, no further adjustment needed.
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And if we do something besides trying to change the rules when there is different kinds of parties?
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No they will still whine but complain about survivors whining
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I think they are about equal other than the likelyhood of being rescued from hook timely and collectly when with friends goes up about 150%! That is why you have a higher survival rate in SWF. I think adding kindred to the base kit of survivors would close this gap a few percentage points. And the 49% of SWF rate is goal not the 41% of solo so Swf is par not the OP.
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You forget that the statistics include Survivors who d/c as kills. Also, let not forget the amount of Survivors who die AFTER they have already won by powering the exit gates and opening the exit. Simply because they go suicidal altruistic to save that’s ONE DUDE who got unlucky and caught at the end of the match. You want real stats? Show me how many Survivors are alive/dead when the Gens are done. No endgame, and soon as the gens are done.
i bet you the ratio will be average of 50%+ of games have 3-4 Survivors alive at that point.
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That makes no sense. A lot can happen in between the last gen popping at the survivors escaping "cough coughNOED cough* So why would you NOT count what happens after the gens are popped?
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The Data sheets aren't reliable to draw conclusions from.
To be an accurate example of a full game they'd have to exclude at least ranks 20-15 that alone would change the results a lot in my opinion.
As well as that they'd have to exclude DCs and 3 man games to the kill count since those too shouldn't be considered when looking for an average in how actual games go.
Hopefully they will do the sheets again but this time divide everything by rank and with the new patch coming we wouldn't have to worry about 3 man games changing the results either.
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Not saying who's wrong or right, but i'd just like to say:
If there's a tool that's free to use for every player,
and once mastered is extremely powerful and close to impossible to counter except for 1-2 specific mechanics,
is that balanced just because not many use it?
Honestly, it feels like i'm asking for Vote Downs...
Post edited by Boss on4 -
if the data that DBD is showing is in fact true, then that would mean every post stating “always playing against a 4 man with op perks yada yada” can now be dismissed.
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It's improbable but not impossible. 6% are about 1'500-2000 players and if you happen to play in a region or to a time most groups of 4 are active there is a higher chance to encounter them.
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8% isn't much? Lets uh, give killers 2% move speed per swf member, and solo players 8% repair speed.
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SWF OP? Haha...tell that to NOED Freddy...lol. Oh, the racial slurs that were cast on me in the post-game chat that day were epic!
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@Chicagopimp2019 You have to run NoEd freddy sometimes because you watch gens get done infront of you
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@Hoodedfengm1n Agree 100%. Not to mention, survivors also count on that 7 second delay when they rescue teammates and run to the gates. I imagine its quite a surprise when they expect to take one hit and find themselves in the dying state and back on a hook.
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The sample size was the entire playerbase, so I wouldn't exactly call that small. It was not separated by rank, though, so that would likely affect things. I would definitely agree with you in saying that drawing a conclusion— one way or the other— is not a good idea. This is very general data and your mileage may vary depending on a whole bunch of factors.
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I think people take this game way too seriously. I just like to play with my friends and have fun. I cant speak for everyone but I have much more fun playing video games with someone else. I honestly would not play this game nearly as much if I did not have my friends to play with me.
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Then let the killer in on the fun!
Why is KYF a separate queue and SWF not?
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I think that a 2v8 game mode or something like that where I could play killer with my friends would be awesome. The only reason KYF and SWF are so different is because you are on completely opposite teams, it just does not work the same. I would love a way that you could play killer with people that would be awesome. However this does not exist so that is why we have SWF
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8% absolute increase in survivalrate is not low. Thats a 20% relative increase.
If we take the stats and continue the survival line for r1, we get a ~62% survivalrate.
A 4-swf on r1 would survive 62% * 1.2 = 75%
1 dead, 3 escape on average. Which is a brutal defeat. Barely catched that one guy while the rest genrushed ez. Your average rank 1 4-swf game, without potatoes.
If anything, those stats show how much impact potatoes have. Going from over 60% down to 43% survivalrate due to potatoes joining high ranks. Its too easy to win as survivor.
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SwF is OP due to rush gen being a thing if gens was less efficient when done seperately, red ranks would be doable. Why do you think billy and nurse are the most used in every platform because, they melt which other killers don't spirit is not strong she is only strong because she can mindgame.
Huntress is the slowest character in the game with/without his power on map like crotus prenn. everyone who say Anna 4K each time is a liar.
You want to know why majority struggle it's because of.
- Crotus Prenn infinite
- Wretched Shop infinite
- Rush gen with mid-low tier killer
- 4 broken perks ( adrenaline , MoM , exhaustion perks ,DS) those are not game breaking by itself but on big maps with powerful loops they are broken.
- 90-95% of killers that are not viable ( trapper , clown , plague except with corrupt purge , wraith , doctor)
Most killers win on specific map ( doctor with impossible skill check build on the game , Nurse struggle with lery and corn but win on every map including those two , Myers lery etc...) does that make a balanced game no.
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I do occasionally play Survivor, but 95% of the time, I play Killer, I'll tell you what, so many Killers are complaining about SWF groups when the majority are no where near good, they get carried through ranks and make constant poor decisions, if you're that upset about a bunch of P3 Squadettes, bring Franklin's Demise and other SWF stomping perks, DCs will come to your advantage, it's funny knowing that players will sacrifice their earnings and forfeit it all cause you outplayed them.
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I like the part about not relying on a playstyle where survivors can’t communicate... i mean, Dbd is literally designed around that idea. They’re yet to balance the game or perks around SWF. Look at DD from Plague or the aura from Ash. Both utterly useless in a SWF match.
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The Data they gave us was from 1 Week. That does mean nothing. The Time Period was waaaay to short to take this Data Serious. And for me as a Main Killer i say, SWF dont belong in a Game like DbD. It gives the Survivors even more Tools to dictate how a Trial goes. The Voice Com Aspect alone breaks the Game. I know that they will never delete the SWF Option because of Fear there Game goes broke short after. But then give the Killer the Option to see in the Lobby if he is facing an SWF or not. This way he can decide for himself if he wants to play against an SWF or not.
If Killer here say that SWF´s are not that bad its because the Group Members are bad in Solo also. If you face SWF´s in higher Ranks they play more often together and they know each other better. If you face Groups like this you can try to outplay them but thats realy exausting if you face Groups like that all the Time. And most of the Killer who say this are playing Nurse or Billy or some other ######### Instadown crap.
If you pair this all together with all the second chance Perks Survivors have, there is no point in playing this Trial.
It goes as far as they even DC so that a Group Member can get out to Hatch. It happend to me Twice. And all of that was streamed live and the Groups dont even care if many poeple are seeing that. They find it even funny. Why? Because they know that it has no consequences for them. You can Report what you want it happens Nothing here.
Its sad that is not possible but i would realy love to see if Noone plays Killer anymore. No Killer, no Matches. Game Dead.
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Well when McLean himself even says that SWF isn't balanced and is OP I'll tend to take that over some random forum poster trying to poorly prove a point.
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The only reason SWFs are OP are 2 simple things.
1. They can tell your exact location at any time and tell people when to hide or dip.
2.They can tell a friend to finish their gen once they get chased a.k.a. gen rush because kicking it means dick.
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