Gate Locations for the new End Game Collapse need a Rework.
[Introduction]:
Hello, some of you my recognize me from months ago when I was pretty active on the forums. I may not be as active as I was back three months ago but I want to address my feelings towards whats happened as of late since I've returned into the fold.
I noticed a fair few updates have rolled out fixing several issues, but one caught my eye above the rest... And that is the new End Game that was added to counteract issues of hatch stand offs since this game was first released back in 2016. And my opinion on it... Is not a favorable one for some to read, but hear me out as I explain why I dislike what has happened.
[Past Issues]:
For one we must go back to the root of the issue, the hatch stand off. While this was a big issue over the years it at least made sense around the core mechanic it followed. (The killer and the last remaining survivor are given a 50-50 chance on either who finds the hatch first.) This I don't mind at all since THAT wasn't at all part of the issue. What was part of the issue was if the killer found the hatch first, as all they could do at the time was either stand there and wait for the survivor or gamble and try to catch the survivor lurking around before they figure out where the hatch is also. Most of the time...this didn't work in the killers favor at all, and this led to the infamous "Hatch Stand off(s)" that were a looming issue for years.
They tried a counter to this back when the Clown was first introduced but this was met with poor ratings as it just led to a glorified game of hide and seek, and the survivor was given the full opportunity to just hide the entire time to spite the killer or "BM" as some will say.
[My "Opinion"]:
The concept of the new endgame isn't why I dislike it no, what I dislike is how it is presented currently in matches. We all know the routine, Slash, Hook, Patrol, Repeat. These are the 4 things a killer primarily does during each trial, and during the trial a certain scenario may comes in where only the killer and one survivor remain.
As a result the concept of who finds the hatch first comes into play, and during any number of generators remaining this will occur. Now if the survivor finds it first, the survivor escapes. But now if the Killer finds it first they're greeted with an option from past PTBs to close said hatch and begin a timer for the last survivor to open any of the two gates and escape that way, removing the "instant win" mechanic and replacing it with what we're currently given now.
to be honest I like this mechanic, it allows the killer a chance to kill the last survivor instead of just giving up at the end as most killers used to do. What I dislike however is the scenario where both gates are at an arms length from one another, which in most of the matches I've had since I returned they were always together unless it was say Lerys, or The game where both gates are always across the map. But now we have this where a scenario like I had can occur where you may ALSO have a hill to stand on and view both gates from a far to watch for the survivor to walk by and open either one.
THAT is my main issue right there, that literal impossible scenario for the last survivor can even happen blows my mind as a killer main. For me I seek a fair game every time I begin a trial, I don't camp, I don't tunnel (Accidental tunnels don't count in that statement), and I seek for a fun experience for both party's.
But now we have glorified death timer at the end when this scenario occurs which leaves the last survivor in a place to just give up and die you can't do ANYTHING to counter this, nothing at all. You're better of DCing (Not promoting that its just for context) than to sit for 2 minutes and just die.
[My suggestion to fix this]:
Now Remember Me can blow this suggestion out of the water, but it at least gives the last survivor a fighting chance. I suggest we have the gates spawn on opposite sides of the map for all maps, OR at least have them never spawn next to each other like they tend to do. Since scenarios like I had can occur where you can just patrol or see both from a hill and the survivor is just boned from there.
This has always been an issue in-game regardless before this update was even rolled out, so it needs to happen even more BECAUSE of this update.
[Closing statement]:
I always try to live by what I said above where I seek to have a fair and fun match for both party's, and that can only go so far when the game allows you to just negate that during the end.
You could just say "Well if its such an issue than just don't close the hatch and resume hatch stand offs" and to that I disagree as that will just revert us back to the main problem at hand instead of moving forward. What I suggested above can at least help in some way to this issue as I believe this new End Game mechanic is leagues above the previous we've had for 3 years now.
At the end of the day though, all I can say is I'd want a fair and fun experience and i'm sure most of you do as well.
[TL;DR]:
We need to change the gate spawns during End Game, or we'll have scenarios like I had where the Killer can just have a vantage point over both gates and the last survivor is just screwed.
Comments
-
Also, I left many changes to perks that effect the gates time till its finished opening or whatever cause they need to be re-adjusted in themselves to fit this new update. (Unless they have already than nvm)
0 -
I feel you, I was playing Nurse and the gates were in blinking distance from each other. However, luckily for the sole survivor, she had a key, but she would have been good as sacrificed if she didn't.
Gates should spawn further than 64 meters from each other and they cannot be in LoS from each other.
5 -
im a rank one survivor and killer
i've always said closing the hatch would make the hatch useless
but with a time limit to escape on top of it??? hahahahhahaha
i had OOO and sole survivor against a wraith at shelter woods once, 4 gens remaining so i was stuck, had to complete a gen, i even found a yellow toolbox,
even with seeing the wraith wherever he was, there simply wasnt enough time to get a gen done.
2 -
I've taken to packing Plunderer's Instinct in all my games, it's a required perk now so I have a chance at nabbing a Skeleton Key and cheating the killer in the end game.
1 -
For anyone who has an issue with the option to close Hatch, and the chance of gates being too close, making it easy for the killer to hunt down the last survivor, consider this:
For a very long time, once hatch was open, killers were screwed. This time, once Hatch is closed by the killer, it's the last survivor who is screwed, true, but unlike with the previous hatch system, the current endgame mechanic still offers ways to turn the game around. As a survivor, you should plan for this. Think ahead, prepare. Get a purple key, scout out Hatch BEFORE your last mate dies, also find out how far the exit gates are placed, even take Wake Up (I know Wake Up is still a joke, but it can help a little).
It's a new experience for all of us, I know: no more easy escapes if we are the last survivor standing. But if you use your brain, you can get out. EGC is definitely a big step towards a healthier game.
3 -
Same here except if i saw tbagging/flashlight spam survivor and only me and one of them are remaining, I escape hatch and killer can close the hatch so that they can get easy kill while me watching entertaining on spectate mode
0 -
I disagree that this has to be the case now for something that can just be easily fixed by changing gate spawns.
Its bad enough Remember Me makes this worse. But I do like how keys are given more of a use now, but since they open the hatch early anyways it kinda is meh?
0 -
Now I don't disagree with the statement that survivors should prepare for this, I still don't like the notion that gates spawn right next to each other since the game first launched.
That issue has been a thing since 2016 and now its becoming even bigger because of the new End Game update,I think if they changed that, the new End Game would be fantastic.
2 -
It's not the same as a hatch standoff at all. If you're the last survivor... you're the LAST survivor. That means all other survivors have been hooked. The killer just got three kills. It's hard enough living to the end of the game and escaping solo. At least when it was a hatch standoff killer and survivor both had a chance to win. Why should the killer get a nearly guaranteed 4k? Killers don't have to run all the way to each gate to see if its actively being powered up. They can see the red lights from across the map or from on a hill. Then you have extremely fast killers like billy, spirit, wraith (when invisi), etc that can cover the distance from gate to gate in the blink of an eye.
I was in a match where I watched the last survivor (I died on hook because there was no possible way we were both escaping against the wraith) went to a gate when I died, opposite of where the hatch was (which the killer closed immediately) and tried to open it. The killer got to him and tried to carry him to a hook but he escaped twice and still stood no chance. I've been in countless matches where the last survivor just sits there waiting to die because there's no point. I was in a match where I was last with the huntress and she knocked me down and left me there to go close the hatch, and then stood there until the entity killed me. Then in another game and many I've watched people who are actively jumping into the hatch get interrupted by the killer closing the hatch and are just done for. Why is the killer favored and get the win by default in that scenario?
Anyone who thinks getting the hatch for survivor was easy is ridiculous. That survivor just watched their team get slaughtered and has this ONE chance to live, which may or may not work out depending on whether or not the killer is good or not.
Hatch should be invisible to killers until it opens. Then they would at least have to find it and can't go straight to it to close it.
3 -
Its worse when a mobile killer has two gates spawn next to each other, I didn't even think about that one...
0 -
I wouldn't mind a minimum amount of tiles between each.
But i kinda wish they could code in a maximum distance based on what Killer you play.
0 -
I feel if you play Billy or Nurse that won't really matter how far they are, but not everyone plays those two because of the stigma they produce... Also they're boring, my 2nd P3 was Billy and I got bored of him after awhile, I haven't touched him in a long time because of how easy it is to down people.
Of course if you know how to play against a billy its much harder, i'm just speaking about the general player base, not the "vets" so much.
0 -
Gates need randomized distance so that it is fair on both sides. Sometimes its clearly in favor of one or the other but its not a guarantee. There is also the fact that not every killer has the potential to patrol the gates as effectively as others. When its a single survivor, yes that is difficult but also not always the case in the egc.
0 -
49:28
0 -
I kinda love, how they kinda admit here, that they accepted the last survivor situation to be a gamble for both sides. It either benefits the killer or the survivor depending how they spawn to each other. And none of these scenarios truelly feel fair or quite right. I would even argue that the situation isn't fun for both sides. In best case scenario it's relaxing for the one, who one the gamble and stressfull for the other.
But the truth is, that an assymetrical 1vs4 game is hard to balance in general. Especially when teamplay is only considered as an option for one side. The hatch probably only exists because of it and to make the game more interesting in a scenario, in which the killer snowballs the survivors. On the other hand, it made 4 kills too hard to accomplish. And it lead to scenarios, which drag out the game like slugging to prevent hatch spawn or survivors playing with the hatch already in mind, even though their teammates are alive, and there is a chance for gate opening.
For me EGC really never fixed all the issues related to the hatch. It's just there to prevent the game to be dragged out too much. Which is good. It's just that it comes with more problems like the new gate situation. I really can't think of a fair solution to this. As it currently is, it's a gamble, with the killer having a higher winning chance.
On the other hand, if they would change Gate spawns too far away from each other, then it would turn the game into a horrible experience for killers, during any kind of endgame scenarios. That would lead to a return to slugging and dragging out the game for a 4k. It really feels like it's one of these scenario you can't make fair.
2 -
I disagree, both the survivors and killers need a fair chance here. If the gates are within 32 meters from each other then that's just GG, minus well wait in a corner for 2 minutes rather than trying tbh. Overall, I don't care what side it benefits, if it's too unfair then it needs a change as soon as possible imo.
2 -
I'm aware they already stated this in their stream before making this post, but lets be honest they say a lot of things won't happen but end up happening down the road anyways. (Sometimes)
Also they said "If you play enough games we feel it would even out" tbh I've played multiple games the past few days I've return to this game and most of the time they're right next to each other or somewhat away but not enough for me to easily patrol them or catch the survivor before they open it.
0 -
Also, this. Right here sums up the post if anyone is too lazy to read it and skims through the comments.
1 -
@FireHazard @Boss @DemonDaddy @Dr_Smith_ @Freudentrauma @NMCKE @George_Soros Just yesterday I opened a thread about minimum and maximum distance between the Exit Gates, according to the killer's speed: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/62565/minimum-and-maximum-distance-between-the-exit-gates/
0 -
Something like your post can give people a rough idea of how this issue should be managed.
I'm amazed though that people don't see the issue in this. Hell, I don't even main survivor and I can see this is an unfair and boring scenario...
2 -
@NMCKE you had a fair chance when the game starts. You shouldn't have a "fair chance", when there's only one of you. Not that I wouldn object to a fixed minimum distance between gates. But keep in mind, if gates are VERY far from each other, it's the killer that's screwed. Maybe a fixed maximum distance would make sense too.
1 -
I'd prefer a scenario where either if the killer gets the hatch he wins and or if the last survivor gets the hatch he wins.
I don't like the new scenario where the killer gets the hatch and we play 2 minutes of watching someone hide and die off screen because both gates spawn literally right next to each other.
4 -
So having a vantage of both gates from a hill is fair? Sounds like a boring win to me, I had this exact scenario and many others without the hill but still in an arms length away from each other.
Of course the killer should have an advantage over one survivor, I just don't agree that the gates should be pretty much 24/30 meters from each other... Or that just ends in you patrolling both gates and the survivor can't really do anything.
5 -
If the survivor believes there's no chance for escape, why don't they just go to the killer and ask to be hooked, instead of skulking around the map and delaying the trial?
1 -
You know as well as I do that most survivors will not do that out of spite for the killer, this game has a natural feud between both sides. I can see more times than not where the survivor just try's to gamble for a key from a chest, most likely not get one and just sit in a locker till the Entity just says "No u" and you die.
You can't honestly believe that's fair.
4 -
So you're "annoyed" that the third chance at escaping is tremendously harder than the second chance, which is the braindead free escape hatch. Which even opens when (not "if"!) survivors made 0 progress?
Be happy the hatch doesnt work for killers like it does for survivors. Getting instantly sacrificed for the killer finding the hatch would sure put the forum on fire.
1 -
So we've established that the problem with the 2 minutes when the trial is supposedly unwinnable isn't the killers, but rather the survivors.
As for the gates being too close, they can also be too far, which would be in the survivor's favor. Both situations happen at the same rate due to the random nature of gate placement, which, according to the devs, makes it fair.
QED, the problem is the survivors.
0 -
A lot of scenarios can occur where more times or not the survivor is in favor, or the killer is in favor. I don't main survivor, I main killer i'm looking out for the little guy here.
Lets have a scenario though where every teammate you have is a potatoe (since most solo matches have potatoe survivor teammates) and they all die almost instantly. Your last hope is the hatch, but oh wait the killer found it first but all is not lost if the gates are just far enough apar- oh....they're right next to each other... Guess its time to go die in a locker.
Sounds fun right? Wrong. Of course I don't disagree with the scenario where the gates can spawn too far away it becomes obvious that the system here is flawed in some way. Perhaps a system can be in order to work out how gates spawn in which areas to maximize a fair end game for both party's. Who's going to make this system? Idk.
But I can say this, a solo survivor shouldn't have the odds stacked up against them at the end because their entire team threw the match and now you get the headache of 1v1ing the killer basically.
I still don't see how that's fair.
3 -
I stated above that I disagree that they added that system where 5 gens still spawn a hatch, its just a get out of jail free card at that point unless the killer gets it first and the gates are within a patrol-able range.
Which in turn shows that the last survivor was boned from the beginning and had a better choice of DCing (Still not promoting DCing but you get the idea.)
1 -
No, losing doesn't sound fun, which is kinda the point. Why should losing be indistinguishable from winning?
As for your scenarios, the last survivor could have just been lucky. If the killer finds the last two survivors together and only kills one, the other one wasn't skillful, they were lucky. They survived as the result of a coin flip. The only constant in every 1v1 scenario is that the killer did their job.
A solo survivor does not have the odds stacked against them at the end. They have the same odds as before when it came to a 1v1 with the killer. They will lose with the same ease as if the rest of the team were alive. The only difference is that they've exhausted all their second chances at that point.
A 1v1 is fair. The killer did their job and killed all the other survivors. Why should the game be changed in such a way that the killer is equivalent to one survivor at that point?
1 -
Why does every argument have the "The killers just doing their job" mentality thrown in to defuse anything anyone says? Yes, the killers objective is to kill survivors and win... But that point is subjective and can be interpreted by others in different ways.
For example, yes I could kill everyone and have a literal one track mind towards the game and find enjoyment out of that yes. But to some others they seek a challenge, and to killers like me I seek a fair and enjoyable experience for both party's.
While yes you have just as much of a fair chance in a chase as you did with three other teammates the scenario is quiet different... dare I say... not as demanding as it once was, allow me to elaborate. With a team of 4 you must spread your objectives out to consider all possible routes to maximize pressure and reduce time and generators being wasted.
If we remove that factoid from a 1v1 with the hatch closed, its just a scenario of hide and seek depending on the gate spawn. As for if you close the hatch and find the survivor there is nothing they can do, sure they can do what they usually do and try and evade your attacks. But without a sense of urgency the killer has with a team the chase is utterly meaningless. You have a better choice of just letting them kill you than actually stand a chance.
And yes, the killer should have an advantage over one survivor its THE KILLER. But giving a literal ultimatum to the survivor (Get chased for X amount of time, Die to the Entity, or give up and rot on a hook) is some backwards logic to a scenario like this. That's not really an advantage over one side at that point, its just a GG you die with 0% of living in the end.
Now, this scenario will not always happen and some EGC's will be more in the survivors favor. But i'm starting to notice more and more despite the distance from each gate if its across the map or not its becoming more and more easy to patrol both and have enough time to catch the survivor before they open a gate each time. Especially with Remember Me, but we can't really remove that perk all together because of this new system. I just believe a more direct approach to this problem needs to be faced.
And if its Billy or Nurse patrolling those gates that's GG rip no matter how far the gates are, but its Billy and Nurse so.
All i'm saying is, i'm not 100% sure on how these scenarios need to be address to be fully honest, but that's why I made this discussion now didn't I? So we can discuss that problem T O G E T H E R!
2 -
You say you made this discussion to figure out how these scenarios need to be addressed, yet get upset with anyone who doesn't think there's a problem in the first place. Make up your mind, then we can talk.
0 -
It sounds like someone is upset they didn't find the hatch first and died to the entity.
Nice to see your concern "killer main" but I think 120 seconds isn't too much for anyone to grumble through for something that happens in, like, 15% of matches.
2 -
I'm not being upset? If anything you can't accept that an argument can be solved with a simple (I can agree to disagree) mentality.
I can come to the conclusion that we don't see eye to eye and can accept that, can you?
All i'm trying to say is, I can respect your views which clash against mine. But we can still discuss why these views are not the same. Nobody's trying to insult you or get upset about stuff, i'm just giving you my view on how I believe its not fair in some regards.
3 -
I mean, have you ever seen me play survivor? You can take my word for it or not, but if I knew your in-game name I would probably come across you in some of my matches considering high ranks are pretty slim in some cases.
If you are in High Rank that is or play PC. (That wasn't a backhanded remark, ranks mean nothing. I just don't know where you stand on the rank board and or have no idea what your name is in-game.)
0 -
Also, this is a fair point this only takes up like a 3rd or so of the trial, but whats a forum without some discussions about some opinions being thrown around huh?
1 -
More enjoyable, generally.
"The EGC has given the killers a marginal benefit. GUT IT!"
They all ready murdered the basement. You want the exit gates to be far enough away that a survivor can open them in the 20 seconds before a killer can patrol them.
Should we just make the EGC timer cause an automatic escape instead of an automatic sacrifice?
Would that be "fair" for the "little guy" who worked so hard to eat dirt and potentially have done literally nothing except sit in a locker all game?
3 -
I see your point and I can agree that I wasn't looking at that possible scenario where the last survivor did nothing while a team that was actually doing everything ended up rotting to the killer. I suppose in a plethora of scenario's that there will be one that rewards a lazy and undeserving play-style, but I feel that's in any video game to be fair.
I never asked also for the gates to be far enough away so that the survivor has a 100% chance of escape, I suggested that the gates be given a farther spawn than the current RNG spawn they have which is 30 Meters (One of the possible spawns) a part from each other, something like 42 or 40 is more reasonable, not a literal arms length with a possible hill spawn looking over both gates.
0 -
I haven't escaped even once as the last survivor since EGC. I play solo and have had several matches where I had a chance to escape but the odds are heavily stacked against me. The killer hooks the 3rd survivor and finds me and I'm being chased, the 3rd survivor died and hatch spawns and opens right beside where I'm looping the killer. I click R1 to jump in and feng starts to jump in just to get knocked out because the killer closed hatch when I hit R1 before he closed the hatch. If it's not like that then the killer closes the hatch and I get to a door and start opening it. It takes 20 seconds and has lights and 5 loud buzzers while opening it, I get the door about 75% when the hear the terror radius and the killer just follows me around till I die by the entity. I've also had the door at 99% when a huntress hit me with a hatchet and she wasn't close but it wouldn't give me the prompt to open the door anymore since I was hit and I had dead hard and would have escaped had it not been for it denying me the option to open the gate the rest. All I want is a fair chance but with this version of EGC the last survivor doesn't get a fair chance and the killer is guaranteed that 4k unless you have a key. 20 seconds with the lights and loud buzzers is too much. Remove the lights that show the doors been worked on or something.
2 -
I wouldn't go that far with the lights and 20 second base time. But I understand what you mean, in a case like this the odds are stacked against you, so its generally going to end in the killers favor most of the time.
Perhaps when they work on EGC they'll find a solution to problems like these for both survivor and even killer.
0 -
You don't need more hand holding. Gates are fine. They're just 20 secs!
2 -
Actually I was advocating for the survivors as I rarely play survivor and can see the flaws in this system.
1 -
The killer should have the advantage in a 1v1, but it shouldn't be impossible for the survivor either. If the gates are close in proximity of each other while they have LoS, I think we need to change that because at that point, the survivor minus well just sit in a corner for 2 minutes.
It shouldn't be impossible for the survivor to escape, that's what I'm saying.
5 -
There is a minimum coded into the game. They actually addressed this a stream for EGC. The gates have spawning rules, but are still procedurally generated by the game so you're always going to have instances where you'll get gates being side by side in a sense.
0 -
Neato.
0 -
^^^ This is what I've been saying since EGC release ^^^
I've come to realize, that Survivors are in a situation now where it is better for them to stand next to a door if they know the other remaining is about to die, and wait for the killer to close the hatch -(killer always finds it first anyway, due to not hiding, and faster movement speed) Then they will have a chance to open the door while waiting for the killer to come to them after closing the hatch. Granted, this only will help against a slow killer, or if gates are apart, and if the hatch spawns on the side of the map as your gate, you're screwed.
0 -
Yes we're aware of this, but the thing is that system is entirely flawed do to cases like this occurring in EGC, it shouldn't be a 100% win for the killer when the hatch is closed, if a survivor who did everything while their team did nothing is at the ends of his ropes he should be given some what of a chance.
Of course the same can apply to someone who did nothing while their team did everything, but hey nothings perfect sadly.
0 -
I have this thread bookmarked because I actually think this needs addressing.
Clarification:
I want the killer to have an advantage in the End Game, but at the same time, it shouldn't be impossible for the survivor to escape either. Therefore, this is what needs to happen to achieve this need:
- Gates cannot spawn within LoS from each other.
- Minimum spawn distance: 64 meters
- Maximum spawn distance: 88 meters
At minimum distance, the 115% killers will take 13.9 seconds to traverse 64 meters.
At maximum distance, the 115% killers will take 19.1 seconds to traverse 88 meters.
Before you say "that's really OP" hear me out: You usually don't have to traverse the full 64-88 meters because can just check them from a distance. For example: Let's say you can see both exit gates whenever you're 16 meters away from them, and they spawned 88 meters from each other (worst case). Doing the math, 88 meters - 32 meters = 56 meters, which is a 12.2 second patrol cycle with a 115% killer. It's not that bad tbh.
Edit: Corrected Math
Post edited by NMCKE on0 -
A reasonable idea, but did you account for killers such as Hag and Huntress who only have a walk speed of 4.4?
This isn't the issue with hatchets and traps, but say you didn't put them on the gate and or there is stuff blocking a gate from throwing a hatchet at.
0
