Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Get all the details on our forums: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436478/sign-up-now-to-receive-a-recap-of-your-2024-dead-by-daylight-stats/p1?new=1
Mettle of Man Change: Is it Necessary?
Mettle of Man has always been a touchy subject for most of the community. When it was first teasered in the Ash vs. Evil Dead trailer, the community created an uproar demanding it was too op. Personally, I wanted to wait to give my opinion on it before deciding if it was good, bad, or even, op. Seeing as how the perk has been released and might be changed, I figured it's the best time to talk about it.
Let's begin with the current state of the perk and my opinions on it. I'm going to to say this as bluntly as possible; Mettle of Man is NOT op. First let me clarify my experience, I play both survivor AND killer, so you cannot say "Of course a survivor main likes the op perk." or anything along those lines. When playing as survivor, I found that the perk is easily countered by simply selecting whatever killer you want to play. Hillbilly, Leatherface, Pig, Plague, Legion, and Huntress completely counter the perks effect with their special ability damage, while also, Trapper, Myers, Clown, Hag, Spirit, and Nurse can either negate the perk or close the distance fast enough where the extra hit almost doesn't even matter. I can give examples of each to those who ask for it. The main point I'm showing here is that by simply picking a killer, you can already counter the perk. The issue I see with Mettle of Man is that it can counter Freddy, Wraith, and Doctor, but personally speaking, I don't see any of the killers in the high ranks I play at.
When discussing Mettle of Man, people seem to focus on the attribute you get (1 free hit) and ignore what's required to obtain it + what happens to you afterwards. For most of the game, Mettle of Man is completely useless to you, it only activates once you've been hit 3 times. Upon the 3rd hit, you are then required to be injured for the perk to activate. So, if you're uninjured and get instantly down (whether from the killer's ability or some perk) the perk will not activate. Also, I should clarify, when Mettle of Man activates, odds are, you're on death hook or close to it, so it becomes a make or break situation, which instant downs can counter. Now, let's say you were hit with Mettle of Man activating and you were let go. Now, your aura will be PERMANENTLY revealed to the killer once you've healed and are farther than 16 meters away from the killer. This only deactivates upon going down again (usually death hook). This can be devastating, especially if the perk activates early in the game. Not to mention, this perk can be activated in situations where you shouldn't have used it!
This isn't to say this perk is bad, but it's certainly not over powered like some people like to say it is. Personally, when I play as killer, I find this perk to be helpful, crazy, right? Well, letting someone with Mettle of Man go AFTER hitting them, they typically run to their team to get healed. Now, once he's healed, I now know the location of at least 2 people, then the person will typical get on generators with other people, constantly leading me to where the others are. Some people are too quick to label something as a bad thing before they have a chance to understand anything positive that can come out of it. Mettle of Man essentially gives me a free BBQ and Chili on the whole team!
Now here comes the part where I discuss my opinion on the changes of Mettle of Man. Personally, I think they could be fine, if they're tweaked a bit. First off, the idea of the perk activating on Protection Hits is a great one, it fits Ash well and the idea of the perk. You are now required to take hits for other people being chased, but I don't agree with it requiring 3 protection hits to activate. See, you typically get 1 protection hit for taking the killer away from someone, and if the killer goes after you and downs you, you don't get another protection hit. To require 3 means you WILL be on death hook, which isn't necessarily bad, but it requires too much risk for a perk designed around taking hits for your team. Changing it to 2 hits seems as a better fit. Lastly, I believe that the perk should work on ANY form of damage, not just M1, look, I'm making it over powered! Actually, the idea behind this is so the lower ranked killers don't suffer while the higher ranked killers don't have to worry. Not to mention, taking protection hits won't work on every killer, like Leatherface or Hillbilly, so, allowing the perk to gain an activation for taking a possible instant down shouldn't be an issue. Also, perhaps a little bit of a nick pick, but I'd love it if you got a blood point bonus for protection hits, just for a bit more incentive.
Here's just a quick summary of the changes for anyone who doesn't want to read the whole thing. Make it take 2 protection hits, allow it to work on any form of damage output from killers, and give it a blood point bonus for protection hits.
Over all, I'd love to hear what other people have to say about this, so please, leave a comment expressing your opinion, whether that be "Great job!" or "You are literally Hitler!" I'd love to hear it.
Comments
-
Actually reading the proposed changes as a killer main i could get behind this change to the perk
1 -
I think 3 protection hits would be too difficult and situational to get the Perk to activate, even as strong as it is. I think it should be easier to earn but with less of a reward. Here's my idea:
Mettle of Man
After performing a safe hook rescue on another Survivor, this Perk activates.
The next time you would be put into the dying state straight from the healthy state, you will instead be put into the injured state.
Mettle of Man must be reactivated after it is used.
Can only be used 1/2/3 times per match.
5 -
"METTLE OF MAN CHANGE: IS IT NECESSARY?"
- YES.
12 -
Surviors have so many outs as is and the balance of this game is ######### so yes a nerf to MoM where the survior actually has todo something to get it rather than be rewarded for being hit would be nice
6 -
Yes, M2 Killers shouldn't be allowed to bypass MoM's pip progression system entirely making it so Survivors have no way to use the perk to counter them.
Any M2 damage (or any damage at all, including surprise attacks which are currently exempt from the MoM pip progression system) needs to be included.
0 -
MoM gives 1 extra hit point per match
M2 damage takes away all hit points in 1 hit all match long
They are the same at opposite ends of the spectrum except M2 damage can be done an infinite amount of times with no down side and MoM can only be done safely once per match which will become even more situational once defensive activation is implemented.
The double standards are real.
The Killer denial is real
The Killer favoritism is even more real.
Lame cubed to the power of derp.
6 -
You really need to try and summarize better if you want people to read things. The MoM nerf is very deserved and a good thing.
4 -
I keep my opinion: As a Wraith main, i don't mind MoM all that much.
It's still an extra health state which can result in another long loop, but DS was way worse and i got through that too.
It's the ability to combine it with other Perks that can grant similar bonuses that annoy me greatly.
Insta-heal Med-Kits don't help either.
2 -
I agree with this, but I seriously hope this perk doesn’t get nerfed into the ground like other perks.
I really do hope they they change it to 2 protective or surprise hits or leave it as is because the killer can see you when your healed till your downed. ( hooked).
i understand people want survivors to work for the free hit but honestly if you counter by insta downing the survivor( or just using your killers second ability if you have one) the perk doesn’t work it’s easily counter-able as a killer. ( if done right)
I am actually a huntress player and throwing hatchets doesn’t count as a normal hit so I can down survivors without even activating this perk so please don’t whine about it.
If the devs nerf this perk into oblivion no one will use it.
and one last thing at least the survivor has to somewhat work for it ( DS was fun they just had to Be knocked down and they had a free escape) but no this perk is already counter-able.
sorry for the long post :)
2 -
You know the flood from the bible, the one with Noah's ark?
That's actually a true story from an alternate universe where Mettle Of Man was not changed. The flood was actually caused by the tears of babies who couldn't deal with that garbage perk
So yes, the change is necessary, but only to save us all from drowning in a flood of tears
3 -
U r by a longshot the most biased survivor main I ever saw. Ur points are more invalid than anything else
5 -
I understand what you're saying, but I did provide a summary at the bottom for those who didn't want to read every detail. Hope that helps!
1 -
@No_Mither_No_Problem I had a similar suggestion but I said two safe rescues and then after using it your aura was permanently revealed.
0 -
Sorry dude. It's a chase extender. And basic, simple math can tell you it's bad in the current state of things.
I don't like tying it to safe hooks, and making it a reverse Borrowed Time. Because Killers are nudged in the direction of tunneling due to Pipping changes. (i can't count how many 3k games i have where I black pip, and 4k games where i only get 1. And don't get me started on a 2k game "entity displeased" 2k games are what they are balancing for, and they are punishing killers for it. You have to hook everyone 3 times as a killer.)
That's why i think it should be tied to generator repairs. Preferably, the person using the perk has to finish a generator themself, or have x amount of time repairing generators before it is activatable.
3 -
If it gets nerfed to ######### I’m NEVER buying another DLC again, too many other honest companies to buy from, too much competition for my money.
1 -
He should have split up the chunks of text. You made a forum account and don’t want to read longer posts? They’re usually the most helpful.
2 -
It should grant tokens for getting killer stuns or healing other players. It’s a defensive protector style perk that should require that very mindset. I think if this is encouraged, it could be great for survivors like myself who heal the team and aren’t necessarily the greatest at evasion, focusing more on trying to keep everyone alive, staying hidden, and doing gens only until someone needs my help.
3 -
I think you should relax, knowing BHVR, Any changes made to survivors are rarely noticeable. The problem with MoM is how frustrating is on a 4 man team when you can’t counter it’s effects in anyway.
1 -
You made a points and i can agree on some things, but I still think this perk needs a nerf. This evening I played a lot of Clown (he's pretty fun) and encountered MoM along with Adrenaline and Insta-Heals alot (Rank 8). But I'm more of a survivor main.
Your first argument is, that nearly every killer has the ability to "counter" this perk. I can savely say, when you slow down a survivor with a good aimed bottle, it's not a counter to MoM. Not at all. (believe me. really.) You still have your cooldown from your third hit and it's enough distance for them to get to a better spot.
You also mentioned the "downside" of MoM but I rarely see this. Most of the time, the dude with MoM just stays injured for a long time and heals himself up to 100%, if he needs to (when i found him). MoM rarely triggers in the early game if you don't tunnel the dude with it or found him very first.
Survivors at high ranks have no problem with being seen at all, it's not really a downside. The downside should be LIKE the upside. Like OoO- you see the killer, the killer sees you. MoM should help you in a chase, so should the downside help the killer in a chase. Tbh, it's the amount of MoM in a trial that ######### me over and also the combination with Adrenaline and insta-heals. Combined with decent or even good survivors and it's a nightmare for non-meta-killers.
0 -
I think that's way too much. Sure, immunity to instadown is nice, but at the end of the day you're just turning a one-hit down into a regular hit. Not a big deal.
3 -
Every crybaby killer main will say yes, even when they nerf it to the point its a trash perk no one will use. But oh how dare you ask for a NOED nerf? That's out of question! Lol , it's funny how entitled some killers are and think they have the right to talk ######### about survivors... kinda pathetic but oh well.
I's still waiting for those NOED and ruin changes to make those perks less OP.
3 -
Have you just written an essay about the Mettle of Manchild downsides only? Let me clarify some things then:
- Another chance that MoM gives (which is for free to be honest) is pretty much; it both saves your life and wastes Killers' time, also allows to find another loop, the shack for example. It's one of "hold M1" perks (like Self Care - if you can heal while hiding from the Killer, do it and don't worry), where no actual effort is needed
- It encourages to use and indirectly buffs already strong killers like Hillbilly and Huntress, only because they are exempt of its effects
- It combines very well with other second-chance perks. You probably know what survivor players tend to go for: easy wins. MoM makes meta on both sides even more defined, and can be painful if you meet all 4 Survivors run it at the same time along with another crutch perks
- There's a simple solution to the perk drawback: don't heal. There are some perks that decrease the penalty for staying injured and/or increase your stealth potential: Iron Will, Dead Hard, Urban Evasion, Spine Chill etc. (and No Mither but who uses it with MoM lol)
I really like the attempt to make so it needs any work from Survivors to gain its benefits, but taking 3 protective hits is a very situational condition as it was mentioned above. Maybe if it allowed safe hook rescues and flashlight/pallet saves to charge MoM up and the drawback was increased (or activated straight after taking the MoM hit), then it'd be reasonable. We'll wait and see what will come up to the devs' minds
Appreciate the post tho
0 -
Not just that, Haunted Grounds has less counters than MoM but don’t mention it it’s not helpful in a killermains argument.
1 -
@DarkWo1f997 yes he maybe you’re right
0 -
If MoM is a chase extender than 1 shot mechanics is a chase shortener.
They mirror each other exactly bar one detail. One can't be OP without the other being OP or we're talking double standards bar one exception:
One shot mechanics have several points of detail which are from a basic premise far more "OP" than MoM: One shot mechanics take away 2 health bars and they do it all match long where MoM only gives 1 health bar and can only be done safely once per match.
By that infallible unquestionable reasoning if someone says MoM is OP then their saying that 1 shot mechanics are exponentially more OP and therefore needs a nerf far more than the one extra hit point that MoM gives.
1 -
Counter for haunted grounds - don't get hit for 60 seconds...
2 -
@DenimChicken yeah having good luck on pallets/vaults isn’t a counter.
what do you do when it activates mid chase? Oh yeah nothing.
0 -
I don't like end game perks at all, for both survivor and killer but don't you realize that NOED can be countered by simply cleansing the totem? MoM has no counter at all apart from using X killer which SHOULDN'T be a counter but NOED can be broken before it even activates.
If survivors are not capable of cleansing all totems then you can't blame anyone but yourself and although I never use NOED because it's unfun to play against it still has counters that MoM doesn't have.
Personally I don't have an issue with MoM on its own but paired with other second chance perks or insta-healer is what I have a problem with. Another problem with the perk is when an entire squad is using it because at that point it becomes a nightmare.
0 -
This!!^^^ So much THIS^^^^^ Great Job!
1 -
Technically the counter to Haunted Grounds is:
Don't cleanse the totem.
Practically that counter doesn't matter, but eh it's a thing.
0 -
I've been loving all the comments and discussions everyone has posted thus far and will post in the future. I make sure to read every single one and understand everyone's points and opinions. I knew some blatant hate was going to be an issue, especially when some are discouraged to read my points and instead just claim that the perk is over powered. I am NOT denying the fact that this perk is strong, I think it can be very strong if used correctly and conditions are met, nor am I against the idea of the perk being changed, hence why I suggested my changes. I'd only ask that everyone remains respectful and kind to everyone's opinions on the matter. Thanks!
2 -
Juke the killer try to not get hit for 60 seconds. There are people that will get hit and there are people that will outlast the 60 seconds in chase. You still have a chance it's not a automatic free down for the killer.
Sometimes the totem goes down when no one is in a chase that's another counter. Try to avoid a chase for 60 seconds.
You have a chance of it not causing you to go down.
0 -
Honestly I'm not concerned about the perk being OP (even though it totally is against Killers like Freddy, or Clown). What I am more concerned about is that it is the only perk that makes failure preferable to success.
Every other perk at the very most mitigates failure or even reverses it. Mettle of Man however gives you a reward that is better than the health states lost to "earn" it.
What I mean by that is compare being healthy to having MoM active or almost active.
Healthy = 2 hits to down
MoM active an injured = 2 hits to down. Immune to instadowns
MoM almost active and healthy = 3 hits to down
Note how healthy is the worst of those. That means that you would rather fail a few times (by getting hit) than not, since having MoM active is better than having never been hit in the first place.
THAT'S the issue. Not that it's OP. But that it encourages failure rather than mitigating it or rewarding success (like Adrenaline does).
0 -
"This perk is unfair because it allows survivors to gain an unfair amount of extra time, just like DS did in the past, but apparently that is more fair than the killer having a power"
Really? Literally every perk can "give the survivor an amount of extra time" If used well. (Except left behind, and often DS, those are trash now)
I got it! Devs! New game mode, all survivors spawn in basement of killer shack, with entity blocked window, and only one door. Killer has no cooldown for attacks and spawns upstairs, and revert stairs! - You killer mains are so pitiful! MoM as is is not very good. It's ok, but has such a preparation and penalty, I rarely use it. I don't plan to spend the game playing butcher with the killer.
If a survivor has been injured 3x, they should've been hooked once or twice at least. Many killers easily counter MoM, there are only about 5 that don't, and that's arguable. : Freddy - but getting a rework. Wraith - but he has speed boost out of cloak, easy first hit. legion, doctor, pig - but has RBT that counter MoM and Hag, but has add ons, and can be played similar to spirit grabbing survivors or teleporting to survivors, so speed boost and one more hit can be easily countered if planned.
It's a matter of killer's not wanting to change their play style, they just want easy downs.
2 -
More importantly. The Killer instadowns either A: Work only in very specific situations (NOED, Haunted grounds, MYC ect) or B: Are the Killer's power. And thus come at the cost of not having a power with other kinds of advantages.
0 -
Dear god the Echo Chamber in this forum is real ^
1 -
i stopped reading after "and ignore what's required to obtain it". i mean, your putting it in perspective like it actually required the survivor to do something to obtain it.
in reality it only rewards the survivor for fcking up multiple times.
it rewards for failure.
this is the main thing why DS got nerfed, because it rewarded the survivor for screwing up without much of a drawback. and lets be honest: aura reading is NOT a big drawback. good survivors will just loop you into oblivion, it literally doesnt matter weather you can see them or not.
2 -
I like your idea of 2 protection hits and bonus points for doing so.
1
