Killer Ultra-Rares: A Discussion
Currently the game has an issue where many of the killers ultra-rare addons have unnecessary negative effects attached to them. The negatives are generally so heavy that for most killers their best addons are their very-rares. Now even if the argument is that those ultra-rares are simply to change their gameplay and not meant to be strong (which is the case with some), I would argue that the negatives are still too limiting for the changed play style to be as enjoyable as it should be.
Yes some of the ultra-rares are extremely strong, but that is entirely the point of them being ultra-rare. When the addons are expensive and you only come across a few of them they should be very strong.
If you disagree with any or have a different idea please list them and your reasons why most importantly. I will be regularly updating this with changes. Thank you.
I'm going to be listing some killer ultra-rares and the changes they need.
Judiths Tombstone: Should only be Slightly decreased move speed instead of Moderately.
It's quite unanimously agreed that his very-rare one is just better as the move speed is too penalizing. The Slightly feels much more reasonable.
Black Box: It should make it so there is always at least 1 survivor asleep. If the last one wakes up then a random other survivor should start the dream transition. This effect will end if only 1 survivor is left alive.
It's current iteration is just garbage as most survivors will wake up before you can even reach them when the game starts.
Red Paint Brush: Remove the movement speed penalty from it.
It's strong, but not worthy of a downside that completely trashes it. It's already countered by simple map awareness and using perks like Spine Chill or Premonition.
Rule Set #2: Should be in her base kit. New effect of this addon is to make her traps be fake traps. This means they will act entirely like a regular trap except they will be non-lethal but with no key in any box. They will beep faster when their timer is going down like normal but when the timer ends or they try and leave through an exit gate with it active it will just pop off harmlessly.
This is trading the traps lethality for extra time wasting. This will also possibly make them choose poor plays as they assume they've been unlucky on finding the key and will start to panic as the timer gets lower.
Amanda's Letter: Just remove the negative of reducing her traps.
It's a decent addon but isn't strong enough to warrant a downside.
Tattoo's Middle Finger: Instead of revealing the survivor that's intoxicated for 6 seconds it will cause all other survivors auras to be revealed for 6 seconds.
It's basically being turned into a similar version of Freddy's Class Photo addon.
Iridescent Seal: Remove both negatives from it. Just have it make Vile Purge become Corrupt Purge every time a gen is completed, that's it.
It's a strong effect, but definitely not worthy of the negatives attached to it.
Mother-Daughter Ring: Remove the negative of hiding scratch marks.
The effect is strong but not worth adding this negative. I'd even argue that her green addon Dirty Uwabaki is better since it's only slightly slower but with zero downsides.
Mint Rag: Make it only give her teleport a 10 second cd.
Waterlogged Shoe: Make it increase her move speed to 115%. All other effects remain the same.
Comments
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Can’t say I disagree with any of these suggestions.
Only two killers who have extremely OP add-ons are Spirit and Huntress.
Prayers Beads isn’t even ultra rare and it has ZERO downsides while Mother-Daughter Ring takes away scratch marks which I don’t think is necessary.
Huntress Iridescent Head DOES have a downside, but you can still equip an Infantry Belt and it is also a very OP add-on. Just not something Huntress needs, she is already strong enough.
All other killers have ultra-rares that strong but not OP.
Plague, Myers, and Pig have ultra-rares that have too many downsides.
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I would as well except that the drawbacks are generally way too hard. Not to mention they are already rare in the first place, so what's wrong with them being so strong if you only get a small number of them?
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"Prayers Beads isn’t even ultra rare and it has ZERO downsides while Mother-Daughter Ring takes away scratch marks which I don’t think is necessary."
Prayer Beads has zero downsides because it's already easily countered by multiple things. Plus the Spirit has to be decently skilled to use it well in the first place. The only change I would see fit is changing it to ultra-rare quality and move her other ultra-rares to very-rare quality. This would make there be less of them.
Mother-Daughter Ring is actually one I was sitting here contemplating adding to the list a lot and I still might. I personally agree with you that it shouldn't have its downside. I just simply hesitated because I know there is a large player base that would disagree.
"Huntress Iridescent Head DOES have a downside, but you can still equip an Infantry Belt and it is also a very OP add-on. Just not something Huntress needs, she is already strong enough."
The thing is similar to Spirit, the Huntress in these cases only has three hatchets so she already has to be decently skilled to make use of it. It is also wasting another very-rare every time she uses it just to make it function. It seemed alright to me. I only see a Huntress run these once every few weeks if even that.
"All other killers have ultra-rares that strong but not OP."
I kind of view ultra-rares as they should be on the verge of almost OP because of how rare they are. They are the addons you save for when you know you are going against a really strong SWF and you are trying to give yourself an equal playing field as much as you can for one example.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
I agree, if you want then addons to change style that’s ok but the negatives are too harsh. Plague I will never use hers
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Hag's mint rag add on needs lower cool down. Waterlogged shoe should also either be buffed to make her 115% (up from 112.5), OR reworked to make crouching survivors trip traps. (Second one may be OP but like you said it's an ultra rare.
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Those are both two that I was considering as well. I think I'll add them to the post. Thanks!
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What would you suggest for Legion's Fuming Mix Tape (literally the most useless add on currently [also forces you to suffer a stun])?
Also I'd like to hear your suggestions for a Nurse and Billy ultra rares. I feel like you'd have an interesting suggestion.
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Electric starter. Instantly starts the chainsaw. While this post is about removing negatives, I would balance this with increased cool down .
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@thekiller490490 Cooldown isn't that bad, it CAN however be awful when you need to do literally anything else like vaulting, kicking gens, etc.
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Ok, let me voice my opposition to all this. May be too long, sorry, I'll put a TL;DR at the end. The whole thing about buffing ultra rares is a wrong approach. One of the most annoying thing about killers is that most of them are not viable without decent addons. Not saying they need pink ones every time to get results, but they need good ones for sure. I understand it's partly design, to force us to keep grinding, and playing, but it gets tough once you hit level 50 and most stuff on your Bloodweb is garbage, yet you still have to buy them. One small but positive step was when they increased the base duration of Afterpiece Tonic, and decreased the effect of duration addons, giving Clown a better opportunity to try out other addons.
Second, and more important one: a very common source of frustration for both sides is "tryharding". Some players just want to meme around, farm, go easy on the other, while others enjoy playing as ruthlessly as possible. Both are ok, casual and "tryhard", but the problem is you don't know what kind of opponent you're facing. I don't mind at all if my survivors are packing instaheals or crazy fast genrush builds when I'm playing Clown with Redhead's Pinky or Omega Nurse. But if I'm facing casual survivors, they can get very frustrated if I do all the tunneling, slugging, "killthemallwhateverittakes" stuff. And it's understandable, hell, if they are civilized enough in expressing their complaints, I even feel bad about it.
However, if killers' base powers were to be buffed somewhat, and addons, especially the rarer ones get tempered a little, the game would not present a huge balance issues every once in a while.
Here's the TLDR part: What I'm mostly proposing is not even just power buffs and addon nerfs. That too, but first of all, I'd want to see more gameplay changing addons, ones that don't necessarily make killers stronger, but significantly change their playstyle. A big favourite of mine is Beast addon for Wraith (the one that retains the TR even when cloaked), but Pig has a few interesting ones as well, and so does Hag, and to some extent, Michael (Butcher's hand, Scratched Mirror and Vanity Mirror, and some others). I want addons that force survivors to adjust the playstyle they would normally use against a given killer.
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Ultra rares aren't rare anyways honestly I would just call them uncommons.
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I disagree
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"One of the most annoying thing about killers is that most of them are not viable without decent addons."
I would agree
"However, if killers' base powers were to be buffed somewhat, and addons, especially the rarer ones get tempered a little, the game would not present a huge balance issues every once in a while."
I would agree with this as well
"let me voice my opposition to all this"
I agree with almost everything you've said but what you are referring to has nothing to do with my topic.
I do think we should bake more into killers base kits and weaker their addons, but I am talking about ultra-rares only, not the other ones. These are their ultra-rares, not their every game spending addons that are used to make them function at a basic level. What you are referring to is an entirely different topic and not at opposition with my post at all.
As I said in my original post, these are rarer addons that are saved for extra difficult matches like against SWF.
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Then RNG loves you. I get some bloodwebs where I'm lucky enough to get ONE very rare, and it's a mist offering.
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then we agree to disagree then, my storage of 633 ebonies plus while I agree some ultra rares need to be better for certain killers the rarity of them makes me glad they are not you get at least 1 ultra rare every blood web in my experience
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@Shad03 at p3 lvl 50 if so dayum.
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I have a large supply like that as well, but that is from millions upon millions upon millions of bloodpoints invested over a very, very long period of time and not any kind of representation of their true rarity in any shape or form, much less for the average DBD casual.
"while I agree some ultra rares need to be better for certain killers"
Which is exactly what this discussion is asking for
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My Trapper gets all my love yet I can barely cling to my Ultra Rares for him.
And my Legion suffers from the opposite. I get ALL the Fuming Mixtapes while I can scarcely get the duration add ons.
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@Blueberry ok, I understand, but I'd still like to point out that most of the time you have no way of knowing how competitive or casual opponents you're facing, especially as survivor.
But anyway, I'm sorry if I went a little off topic with that.
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@Shad03 interesting and Fuming mixtape isn't that an add-on that most likely shouldn't even be called an Ultra and don't you want the duration add-ons because aren't they best currently. if so even bigger RIP RNG must hate you more than I thought.
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"but I'd still like to point out that most of the time you have no way of knowing how competitive or casual opponents you're facing, especially as survivor."
That's why this post is about killer addons, not survivor addons.
As killer you can tell quite often what you are getting into.
"But anyway, I'm sorry if I went a little off topic with that."
It's fine. Like I said I agree with you and have advocated for the exact changes you are speaking of.
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@KillermainBTWm8 Anyways, we are going way off topic. We could continue that conversation elsewhere if you find it interesting :D (RNG truly despises me)
@Blueberry If they can get the rest of the killer Ultra Rares to the level of the Wraith's URs, I think everything would be great.
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Depends on how many bloodpoints you pile into the killer. I know some players who have 100+ ultra rare add-ons on killers because they just don’t use them. I personally piled A LOT of bloodpoints into Spirit and I have about 40 Fathers Glasses and 50 Prayer Beads. Ultra Rare and Very Rare add-ons aren’t incredibly rare to come across.
The other day I wanted to test how easy a round would be. I am prestiging Huntress so I used Iridescent Head/Infantry Belt with an Ebony. Needless to say there was five gens and four survivors moried and I’m not that great at Huntress either.
It’s just too easy to equip an ultra-rare and a mori and steamroll through survivors, at least with Huntress.
Hag’s Mint Rag/Rusty Shackles combo is also on the verge on being OP but I still think that is more balanced than Huntress. At least that combo is kinda fun. Huntresses’ combo is basically spoon-feeding a victory.
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"I know some players who have 100+ ultra rare add-ons on killers because they just don’t use them."
Well if it's because they just don't use them then bringing it up as a counter point is quite pointless eh?
"I personally piled A LOT of bloodpoints into Spirit and I have about 40 Fathers Glasses and 50 Prayer Beads."
I mean you said it yourself, you have a lot because YOU PUT a lot into them. That wouldn't imply they are common then.
"Ultra Rare and Very Rare add-ons aren’t incredibly rare to come across."
I'd say rare enough to be "on the verge of almost OP"
"The other day I wanted to test how easy a round would be. I am prestiging Huntress so I used Iridescent Head/Infantry Belt with an Ebony. Needless to say there was five gens and four survivors moried and I’m not that great at Huntress either."
That's hardly a fair comparison, also very map dependent. What if you got Lery's and every survivor brings an insta heal or BNP? Not something I would use.
"Hag’s Mint Rag/Rusty Shackles combo is also on the verge on being OP but I still think that is more balanced than Huntress. At least that combo is kinda fun. Huntresses’ combo is basically spoon-feeding a victory."
That's once again running an ultra-rare AND a very-rare to pull off a decently strong combo. I wouldn't even call that one close to OP. Remember that even with wasting BOTH those addons you still have to land those hatchets with just 3 which against good survivors can be difficult. How often do you seriously see a Huntress running all that anyway? Once a month?
I'm not saying they aren't very strong. I'm just saying for their rarity they should be.
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As a Freddy main, black box is fine, in fact I wish it would appear more on the bloodweb, so I wouldn't complain it became less rare.
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I would say it was fine if it was of uncommon quality, but not even close to worthy of an ultra rare. As a survivor I can literally wake up at the start of the game before he can even reach me in a straight line...ultra-rare wasted that easy.
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I like to combine that addon with dying light and a green Mori.
Also works as an addon if combined with the separation offering
But knowing where one person spawned is so very helpful, even if it's removed relatively fast, Ill be close enough to put them asleep again, and usually you only wake up fast enough if there are teammates, which makes for more target.
If it was uncommon, I'd have one in every game.
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Yeah basically this, I don't really have an issue with using judith's tombstone especially if paired with the infinite anyway (which it usually is) plus isn't the tombstone piece the best option if you don't want to deal with decreased speed but want to go on a stabbing spree (given it's very hard/probably not possible to use this to stalk/kill all 4 but lets not bother with that bc that's not the point) (edit: just saw you agreed with this in the OP so feel free to ignore, accept as agreeing with you on that point)
They are super devastating addons, I'm fine with the movement speed on Judith's (I barely even noticed it was a thing if I'm being honest, same with vanity mirror it's not as drastic as you may think, being stuck in tier 1 without doing the meme build is the only true pain - or burger king if you're a masochist)
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"If it was uncommon, I'd have one in every game."
Which wouldn't be an issue since it's so weak.
After you play the game enough you have survivors spawns basically memorized so telling you where he's at for a little while before reaching him isn't worth much. Also, even if you did use a separation offering he'll just wake up from a gen. Are you playing Freddy with this addon at rank 1? This meme situational stuff can work at low ranks but not at high ranks.
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I'm fine with a trade off. The issue is the trade offs generally aren't worth what you're getting.
For your questions yes the tombstone piece is generally the best one and what people run because the ultra-rare ones downside of decreased speed is too extreme and isn't working against any non potato survivors.
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You have a strong point that most don't use their ultra rares that commonly, but I don't think it's due to the downsides/negatives. Simple thing is there are better addons at a lower rarity, I personally love class photo as Freddy, that is much more useful than the paint brush etc for me but I just don't know if buffing the ultra rares is a way to make them better to use in comparison to other addons?
I get your point I think, if they are so difficult to get, why can't they feel nicer to use? It is a good point but I just cringe a little at the thought of buffing some of these... but at the same time if they are believed to be rare a match where the killer uses OP addons would be rare... it's a difficult thing to consider...
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I don't know, I tend to avoid the tombstone in general because of how game changing it is and I prefer a build I actually have to work for and have a normal match from so maybe we need a tombstone advocate in here. That's part of the reason I don't like it, the other is the speed of the stalk but that's fair considering once you do get it they're done and can be paired with addons if not doing the infinite.
It's just not as useful in general to me as the tombstone piece, even the fragrant is never used for me past getting the trophy because people hear your TR from a mile away if not using M&A and even with it you don't have the same sneak up and then trigger EW3 versatility to catch them off guard. It's more of an argument that the ultra rares, at least for Mikey, aren't that appealing in general, even if you did move slightly faster with tombstone (which shouldn't be, I can catch people easily even if I mess it up and enter a chase with vanity mirror which is a slight decrease in movement, thinking of this on tombstone w/ Ew3 is just horrifying).
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Doctor's Iridescent King could use some buff too, it takes 5 hits to put survivor in all afflictions which is pretty bad. Most of times I put them in T2 just by my static field, and zap them sometimes on loops, so I never use this addon due to some much time I need to waste to make it work at full. Since its Ultra-rare it should put surv in all afflictions with one zap.
Trapper's Ultra-rares are pretty strong, but you trade traps visibility and quantity you carry for it. On big maps they are wasted in a lot of times. They probably should increase number of traps you can carry by 1 as well, but do not stack with each other.
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I love Freddy's red paint brush. The slight movement penalty doesn't trash it in my opinion. WIth the red paint brush if you put a survivor into dream world it's nearly impossible for the survivor to hide from freddy. I love that I can see their auras whether close or far way. If I take a mori into battle, I make sure I always have my red paint brush to go with it. At least somebody is dying.
I agree about The black box though, it's pretty worthless. Okay I can see where the survivor is to begin the game: furthest generator from where I start (like I didn't already know that.) Maybe start ALL the survivors in dream world. (Even then it's so easy to wake up the benefit of that wouldn't be that great.)
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For Doctor's, what if we also added a 50% range on the shock? Similar to his other yellow addon but without the downside and baked in.
You'd still have to shock them a lot, but it would be way easier and more consistent.
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You don't need to hide when it's so easy to wake up.
"If I take a mori into battle, I make sure I always have my red paint brush to go with it. At least somebody is dying."
I'm trying to balance these around a normal match, not a mori.
Are these games where you find it strong at rank 1? At low ranks everything seems strong. At rank 1 even without getting slowed with this addon you are already getting looped to oblivion by competent survivors. I'm trying to make these viable assuming the survivors are intelligent and not low ranks playing stupid.
"Maybe start ALL the survivors in dream world. (Even then it's so easy to wake up the benefit of that wouldn't be that great.)"
That would be interesting. You think that's stronger than the idea I mentioned in my post?
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Judith's Tombstone, Mint Rag, Amanda's Letter, and Mother Daughter Ring are all fine the way they are. MDR makes you are crazy fast with just that add-on, so not seeing scratch marks is a fair trade. Plus if you are a good Spirit player you shouldn't need scratch marks to find people. AL gives you free aura reading, maybe increase the range slightly if anything. MR is literally one of the best add-ons in the game. And Judith's Tombstone is only used with infinite EW3, so it's only fair it has a big drawback. I mean, you can flat out kill people instantly. The extra stalk means nothing, I play Myers like once in a while and last time I did infinite tombstone build and it was EZ to get. I only didn't get the achievement because the last guy was someone I was a bit mean to in the previous game, so when he jumps into a locker I message him that I'm doing the achievement, he can give it to me if he wants or I'll carry him to hatch. He picked hatch, fine with me.
Prayer Beads should make her footsteps audible with 2m. It is currently like that, IDK if it is a bug or something, but it should stay that way, only because then you can't get tons of free grabs from it. Survivors that pay attention to their surroundings can at least stop the interaction to prevent the grab. It would still be a free hit though.
Iridescent Seal should have a minor drawback, but not what it has currently. I would say reduce Corrupt Purge moderately would be all (like 15 seconds).
Black Box does need a new effect to make it viable. It's more of a meme than anything, Class Photo is way more powerful and nearly as effective at finding the obsession quickly. If anything I would like longer wake up time, but Freddy is changing so this is probably moot.
Red Paint Brush should have a minor drawback, because it reduces transition by 2s and reduces your TR to 8m which is ridiculously small. I would say it should reduce his movement speed to 4.5 m/s, same as Hag with Waterlogged Shoe. But again Freddy is changing, so w/e.
Ruleset 2 I don't think should be baseline just because the traps whole purpose is to be a second objective for survivors. This add-on is quite strong, and if you got it for free then doing CoG + TT would be super powerful. It'd be like a guaranteed trap kill unless the dude is blessed with RNG and gets it off the first box. I will say that I think it needs to do more than what it does, but no to making the effect baseline. That would be OP when you factor other add-ons into the mix.
Waterlogged Shoe is fine, but it could use another minor effect to make it worthy of it's rarity. I would say make the Hindered effect persist for like 10 seconds after the leaving the trap zone. That would make it a tad better without also making it OP.
I do support your idea for Tattoo's Middle Finger. That seems like a reasonable change.
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@letuce Class Photo + Zblock is better than Black Box if you run Dying Light. Just sleep survs until you find the obsession, and you don't risk the obsession waking up early or giving away your build (which if you run BB will tell survivors EXACTLY what you are doing, and smart survivors will protect the obsession very hard). Class Photo/Zblock makes you look like a baby Freddy, and by the time survs realize you have Dying Light and Class Photo the obsession should already be hooked, and you basically won the game.
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That probably works really well, and i'll probably try this class photo. but i like how fast i can find find my target with black box. regardless of the method, survivors can tell if they have dying light, so if you appear like a baby freddy they'll still protect their obsession. at least according to my experiences.
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They don't get a notification of Dying Light until they perform an Altruistic action. So as long as you don't go after anyone but the obsession they won't know until they are on the hook, at which point its too late.
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Today I learned. Thanks! this changes everything about how I run dying light > : D
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My whole point was to remove those 5 zaps from Addon, range isnt an issue for Doc tbh, I never run range addons since I dont see any reason, apart from Railgun build.
I thought about Rule Set N2 to be build-in at some point when I was playing Pig a lot, but I've come to conclusion that it will change nothing in fact. Addon is very weak in its current implementation, it need to be changed drastically, its is not nearly to Ultra-Rare, I'd say its Uncommon at max.
Rule Set N2: Jigsaw Boxes are inactive while RBT is not armed.
So, basically you NEED to start RBT timer to take it off. Coupled with TT/CoG/JS it will be real threat to trapped survivor.
I had a lot of games as/against Pig, when she puts RBT at 2 ppl, and survs just stop doing gens and they take them off without any pressure, sneaking to boxes and avoiding Pig. PPl do totems/chests/heals/whatever and dont give much ######### about RBT.
Clown's Addon Tattoo's Middle Finger is indeed very strange and weak compared to Redhead's one, but changing it into another Class Photo probably is not good idea.
Class Photo is good cause you can put guy in transition and go for others, since you can always find him back when you need or he will blow gen and slowdown the game.
As Clown, first of all, you intoxicate ppl while in chase, you wont drop chase and go for another guy somewhere else, cause its waste of time obviously, the guy you chased will just go to his prinary activities. Secondly, if you down someone and hook them its been plenty of time for survs to change their positions, so you will have only vague idea where they are, but in that case BBQ is just plain better, you see them right when you hook and you are free to move at once.
It proooobably can be used in slug builds, intoxicate, down guy and run to another. But Clown is not very good slugger as for me, cause he is not mobile Killer.
Clown is good in chases, but he lacks map pressure. Maybe Addon can give him something for map pressure
Tattoo's Middle Finger - Downing intoxicated Survivor fills Clown with thirst for blood gaining 5% movement speed and Terror Radius reduced by 12m for 30 seconds.
Thus, Clown can apply more pressure and move between survivors faster. I thought that buff timer can be on halt during carrying and hooking, but it is probably overkill. Paired with Agitation Clown can run to hook extremely fast and still have plenty of buff left.
As for Freddy Addons, hardly it is even make sense to think of them now due to upcoming rework.
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You can see my opinions of Ultra Rares here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/491618#Comment_491618
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You didn't really give opinions on any changes. You just basically said if they were fun or strong.
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Yeah, I didn't really read this whole thread, I only saw people talking about ultra rares and then I strg c + strg v that link here. I have a huge Excel List of Addon changes/buffs for every Killer
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I'd agree there is a long list of addons that need changes for a multitude of killers. That's not even touching on the ultra-rares yet. They started on it a long time ago but it was put on halt when they got a little too busy.
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At some point of my life I found time to look at every Killer addon and try to change them to make them better. Most Killers have completely different addons now (in my list). I gave every Killer the same amount of addons (4 brown, 5 yellow, 5 green, 4 purple and 2 pinks)
I might look into them again because I have a feeling that some are a bit to strong and not well looked at.
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With how the games balance has been for so long, I don't think starting at "too strong" and working our way back would even be that bad. The games been going with a starting at "really weak" and kind of, maybe, a little, working our way forward..lol
It would be nice to see something actually release in a strong state for once.
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When it comes to my Nurse addon change ideas... idk. One ultra rare suggestion was:
Sallie's darkest secrets:
- 3 additional chain blinks
- Considerably increases fatique duration (~ increases by 25 %)
- Considerably decreases movement speed (I think it was 15 % less or something)
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I don't think anyone wants to see a 5 blink nurse..lol
I'd remove the negatives and make it 1 additional blink. A total of 3 blink nurse should be her ultra rare and is already pretty busted.
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