Killer's strength could scale with SWF
So I just had a thought. What if a Killer's power (be it speed, stun recovery, or maybe even length of time before bloodlust kicks in) scaled up a certain percentage for each member of a SWF group? Just 2 friends playing together would mean that the killer gets some very small buff, like 2 or 3 percent faster gen degradation, or maybe the killer's vision becomes 5% clearer. The more members on a SWF team, the bigger the buff.
What do you think? What sort of buffs could a killer get, and how would it scale to bigger SWF groups?
Comments
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because swf doesn't make a single survivor stronger when you're chasing them, an SWF doesn't magically make a survivor better at looping.
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So what you're saying is that having people on a team together with coms doesn't make it easier to survive...
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If a player is looping you, and you think you're entitled to a speed boost because they're paired up with another survivor then you are simply wrong.
That survivor would still loop you regardless of if they had a team mate or not, you shouldn't suddenly become stronger in chases because of SWF, lol.
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First of all, the buff could be anything. Never said it had to be a speed boost.
Second of all, I don't think you understand how strong survivors on coms can be. If a survivor from the SWF group is looping a killer, they can tell their friends where the killer is and that they are being chased, so they KNOW they are safe to work on gens. Or they can say 'hey I'm over here being chased, come blind him when he picks me up' or 'he is away from the hook, it is safe to save me'. The amount of additional information each survivor on a SWF group with coms gets is waaaay more than a solo survivor group. So if a SWF group on coms has so much more information than an equivalently sized solo survivor group.....doesn't that mean it is stronger, and therefore it is harder for a killer to KILL THEM? Which might warrant a SMALL, SCALED buff for the killer in order to counter the INCREASED DIFFICULTY?
I mean, ????
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Do solo survivor just not work on gens or something? Most killers have a heart beat, if you don't hear the beat you can usually tell it's safe to be on a gen, people like to act as if solo survivors do nothing and only hide in lockers, admittedly they can give info about blinding times etc, but I bait out pick ups if I know theres an FL in the game, it doesn't necessarily mean they're SWF.
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Honestly, there's only one way to properly settle the SWF issue; that being a separate queue. However, preferably the separate queue should be a team based mode where it's SWF v SWF with both groups having their own killer to kill the other SWF team. We would need cross platform capability tho, because queues would skyrocket tbh.
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No, it isn't, seperating queues would kill the game.
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Not when cross platform capability is a thing within DBD because there will be a crap ton of players to compensate. Did you even read my comment?
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That wouldn't work. At all. I'd just add a notification about the SWF so I can bring a mori, Nurse, and omegablink.
I'm still salty that one curbstomped my Spirit yesterday because the clicking distracted me XD.
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It could but it shouldn't.
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This would be so dope
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Yea, I read your comment, it wont work.
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Why?
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I absolutely agree with @NMCKE
Even with the much increased time in queue, I would much rather have a separate mode for SWF, as it was always intended to have. My personal waiting-time for a match pales in comparison in importance to the integrity of what the game is supposed to be.
I put forth this idea before:
A. Give SWF their own mode. (Whether this is a specialized mode with new mechanics and win conditions or not is up to Behaviour). Vastly strengthen Killers in this mode to be comparable to SWF with shared information.
B. Change the new Solo Mode so that lobby is individualized - so in this new lobby, the killer can't see the survivors (or their usernames) and survivors can't see the killer or other survivors (or their usernames.) Stagnate the initiation of the load-in to the maps (though they will all arrive at the same time.) The UI for the survivors' names are replaced with numbers or letters.
C. To help shorten the waiting times for each mode, add something akin to the Daily Ritual, except it is added on an hourly basis, and only for the Side/Mode that is most lacking in players. For example, if not enough killers are playing in Solo Mode, the 'Hourly Ritual' will give extra bloodpoints for doing something as a Killer in the Solo Mode. The amount of bloodpoints will depend on how lacking it is in that moment for that Side/Mode - the more people that is needed, the more bloodpoint rewards will be.
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Because people LIKE swf against a killer, and at least from the way the forum reacts no killers would queue against SWFs because obviously it's impossible to compete against it.
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I like how we're just making stuff up like "SWF was supposed to be seperate" I mean, ok? lol
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Killers don't want to queue against SWF because it's not balanced for it. Balance the Killers specifically against SWF, and they shouldn't mind going against them at all.
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McLean:
"The Kill Your Friends Mode and Survive with Friends Mode were always intended. It's just that at the time we only had time to do one of these modes, before release. And we chose Kill Your Friends."
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Nope, I'm talking about SWF with 5 players, and 1 of those 5 players will be their TEAM killer. The survivors can inform their team killer about what the other survivors are doing and etc.
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Just stop with this, swf is less than 5% (full group) and you guys still complain with this.
SWF just make the game more interesing, because THEY KNOW how to play, they are not braindead survivor that heal in a corner.
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You always seem to meet my expectations.
Only because survivors' looping skill doesn't change when playing SWF, doesn't mean the game is the same and the killer has any power over the outcome of the game.
Skillful Survivors are the power role, even in Solo Queue, but in Solo Queue, mid tier killers, atleast could have a chance, if RNG is playing along.
Things a SWF can do, a Solo Queue can't:
- Make ultimatively safe unhooks, because of the unhooker knowing the safety of the hook area.
- Make incredible team saves with flashlights or pallets, wasting all of the killers time
- Know which player the killer is chasing + the area the killer currently is in.
- Know the perks of the killer, due to SWF players encountering them.
- Know how many totems are done and where they are to be found (+ gens)
- Choose all of your teammates, meaning there are most likely no unestimated DCs and survivors with extremely high skill
Killers need some sort of compensation for playing vs a SWF.
Otherwise SWF players will always have a significantly higher chance of winning.
Also it's just unfun to play vs SWF as killer, because you have WAY less ways to react to certain situations.
A speed boost is by any means not the right way to go however.
I would propose:
- Sharing more information between solo players
- Give killers a BP bonus
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Part of the core mechanics of DBD revolves around not knowing exactly how other survivors are acting in each given condition. You rely solely on your memory, wit, instinct, and experience to try to deduce not only what the killer is doing, but also other survivors. That's the main part of what makes DBD interesting. Should I go for the save, or is someone else already in position? Is the killer camping, or chasing someone who went for the save? If I don't go for the save right now, would the person on hook suicide, or would he hold on? All of these questions should be going through the survivor players' minds. People who rely on voice communication for shared information are taking away from all of that, just so that they can "win." It's pretty much like people who use anagram decoder app (or any third party apps) to get information outside of their own knowledge when playing Words With Friends or Scrabble - they take away the main enjoyment of the game for "a win."
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The problem with this idea is that not every SWF is SEAL Team Six. Hell, I frequently play with friends, but none of them are as good as me. Sure, we can coordinate to some degree, but they're not better players. They're worse at skill checks, jukes, reading the killer, minding their locations for escapes, etc. We're maybe better than some green-ranked randoms, but that's it. A random set of purple ranks with 300+ hours each would easily dumpster in effectiveness.
Something like this wouldn't work without a strong ranking system behind it in some way. SWFs just won't ever measure as equally as killer mains think it will, especially given that it doesn't necessarily mean a 4-man team.
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You say that your friends are worse at skill checks, jukes, reading the killer, minding their locations for escapes, etc.
If they are playing solo, it certainly sounds like they are the type of players that would be eliminated pretty quickly (though that would also depend on how bad the killer is.)
Do you think they deserve to have a different outcome just because they are playing SWF? If you do, do you think that is fair to the killer?
I do agree with you that it would need a stronger, revised ranking (and matchmaking) system though for it to work.
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This is over-complicated and unnecessary.
And if I'm a solo player inadvertently playing with a stack of three without my knowledge? Why should I be subjected to this nonsense handicap when it's already a shitshow playing solo in the first place?
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This is actually very true, it's part of what makes survivor fun and intense, not knowing exactly what is going on but being forced to make a decision. I only play SWF with one person (but to be fair they are bad with directions and map layout anyway...)
We do actually play together without chat sometimes too, it might not change the outcome of the match much at all but it's definitely nice to return to what dbd is meant to be at base, we actually do better sometimes because we can focus. I'd still play matches with my friend even if I didn't have chat, it actually gets funnier because we use pointing or come here at each other.
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Honestly my man, playing solo, it's easy enough to figure out this information on your own. Killer busy chasing someone: Do I have a heartbeat Yes - killer is about to find and chase me. No - Killer is more than likely chasing someone else. Should I go for save? Yes - It's been approximately 20 seconds and I can safely go for the save. No - I am currently being chased or can see the killer close to the hook from where I'm at. To caveat off the whole chasing someone else thing, noticing when someone's been hit is a very clear indicator to everyone else that they are safe for the time being and needn't worry about being chased. Keeping track in the back of my mind the killer's pathing throughout the match is pretty simple especially if you know the maps really well. Outside a certain distance it becomes a non issue where the killer is anyways. If there's a hex that's easy too, check all the usual spots and cleanse at the next opportune time. Playing with a group with voice changes my play style very little. It just makes me troll my teammates more. By the time people are relaying any info to me I've either figured that was the case or was gonna find out in the next 10 seconds.
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Killer busy chasing someone: Do I have a heartbeat Yes - killer is about to find and chase me. No - Killer is more than likely chasing someone else.
Are you the type of player that gets off a generator and waste time hiding around every time you hear a heartbeat, despite the possibility that the killer is chasing someone else close by where you can't see them? Ok.
Should I go for save? Yes - It's been approximately 20 seconds and I can safely go for the save. No - I am currently being chased or can see the killer close to the hook from where I'm at. To caveat off the whole chasing someone else thing, noticing when someone's been hit is a very clear indicator to everyone else that they are safe for the time being and needn't worry about being chased.
Do you wait 20 seconds every time before going for a save if you can't see the killer, despite the possibility that the killer could have left the area as soon as he hooked the person and kicked a generator that was near there? That would mean even more time was wasted which that hooked person could have been working on a generator / the generator could have stopped regressing earlier. But ok. Do you wait until someone else has been hit until you confirm your safety and either do generator or make a safe unhook? Ok.
Keeping track in the back of my mind the killer's pathing throughout the match is pretty simple especially if you know the maps really well.
Sure, keeping track of the killer's pathing is simple - how about other survivors paths from previous chases? Do you immediately know which areas are still safe with unused pallets? Or perhaps you waste time looking around first yourself to make sure the pallets are still there.
If there's a hex that's easy too, check all the usual spots and cleanse at the next opportune time.
Do you check "all the usual spots" on your own around the whole entire map? How do you know all the other randoms are not doing the same thing, wasting 3 generators worth of time as every single one of you are looking at the same places all around the map?
By the time people are relaying any info to me I've either figured that was the case or was gonna find out in the next 10 seconds.
Sure.
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Not going to read all those posts, so as a killer main who also plays a lot of survive with friends, let me just say this..
This is one of the stupidest suggestions I've ever seen.
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No I'm usually the type of person to stick it till the last possible second. I'm not one to waste time in the real world I certainly don't do it here.
I usually wait 20 seconds unless someone gets hit before then. Either way after that person gets saved I heal them and have them follow me to my gen. The time lost either way is maybe a minute. I like longer matches anyway.
I don't really care about other survivors path throughout the game. If the killer has been chasing someone in an area it's already safe to assume the pallet has been used. Why would I need to know if a survivor has been there if I know the killer has been there. It's not difficult to surmise where safe pallets are. I make a mental note as I go around places of where I've seen pallets for an escape plan.
Yes as a usual solo I have to check them on my own. That's what solo is. It's kind of just how it goes that more than one person will check for totems. I don't bother cleansing every totem I see. THAT is a waste of time. Getting caught by NoED is my fault because that means I didn't leave fast enough.
I'm not the type of player to be immersed and hide from heart beats. THAT is a waste of time. I'm not a time waster. It's not implausible to figure out who's who and what's what in a match while playing solo dude. Despite popular opinion solo isn't that rough unless people DC or you get an absolute ape of a teammate but that happens.
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This isn't a game that can linearly translate player skill, especially given the variance between killers, their effectiveness, and the perk and addon setups people choose. Hell, people can be doing dailies, or slugging a 4K, or farming, or not trying too hard, or testing an off build.
You can't have a "fair" system against SWF like this because such a concept would be based on the idea that players being on voice chat and together can be linearly scaled and related to a bonus to the killer player.
I've been accused of being a SWF while solo, and I've been smashed like random newbies in a 4 man SWF. Player skill is not equal for everyone.
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Survivors win by a landslide = obviously 4 man SWF
Killer wins by a landslide = intended solo survivor play
People didn't want to believe that 4 man SWF groups dwindled down to just 5% of the playerbase, yet still so commonly use it as a scapegoat for inadequacy.
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No I'm usually the type of person to stick it till the last possible second. I'm not one to waste time in the real world I certainly don't do it here.
Well, hopefully you don't get grabbed by a Michael or Pig from around the corner just because you assumed that 'don't hear a heartbeat = someone else is being chased.' That would have wasted a lot of time that could have been used for a chase.
I usually wait 20 seconds unless someone gets hit before then. Either way after that person gets saved I heal them and have them follow me to my gen. The time lost either way is maybe a minute. I like longer matches anyway.
For someone who doesn't like to waste time, you don't mind losing an entire minute of a match that usually lasts around 10 minutes on average? Ok.
I don't really care about other survivors path throughout the game. If the killer has been chasing someone in an area it's already safe to assume the pallet has been used. Why would I need to know if a survivor has been there if I know the killer has been there. It's not difficult to surmise where safe pallets are. I make a mental note as I go around places of where I've seen pallets for an escape plan.
Not knowing where safe pallets often means a faster down. Knowing where pallets are that other survivors had purposely avoided using could have saved some time. But ok.
Yes as a usual solo I have to check them on my own. That's what solo is. It's kind of just how it goes that more than one person will check for totems.
Yup, time wasted that could have gone towards generators. Of course, SWF could split the work, where two survivors could search for totems on opposite sides of the map, and two survivors push through the generators and continue to put pressure on the killer - but whatevs, right? It's almost the same thing.
I'm not a time waster.
You sure?
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This kind of change is doomed to fail. Mostly because if a group is seriously determined to optimize their chances of winning, then they will use the random ques at the same time as their friends and dodge until they are in a lobby together. It's what they used to do before SWF was added in the first place. Not to mention even randoms can get comms by posting a discord link in the pre-game chat. No one does this now because it's pointless, but if it gives an objective advantage to do so then people will do it.
Any solution to the SWF imbalance NEEDS to take into account the fact that just because they went from the random que doesn't necessarily mean they aren't on comms.
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I've been accused of being a SWF while solo, and I've been smashed like random newbies in a 4 man SWF. Player skill is not equal for everyone.
And that's why having a separate queue would help in those cases - to gather specific data just for solo players and just for SWF players. The problem has always been not knowing how to balance the killers when they are mixed in with both solo players and SWF players. If the two are separated, they can be properly balanced at the top for both solo queues and SWF queues, and then scaled downwards. No more confusion like the one you are facing.
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I tend to look around while I'm on a gen not mindlessly hold M1. That's how you get grabbed. It's not hard to stay alert while you play survivor.
Most matches on average last maybe 6 minutes. If it lasted 10 minutes we survivors were being monkeys the whole time. I run WMI so healing someone else off the hook takes max like 8 seconds with no greats. So no it's definitely not a minute wasted to wait 20 seconds if not less to save someone or let someone else save.
I mentioned that as the map goes on I keep a mental map in my head where it is highly likely pallets are still in play or have been used. Other than that it's just basic game knowledge to run a chase. It's not hard.
You don't need SWF to do that. Most times in solo 2 people do that anyways. It's a non issue looking for a hex totem and no significant amount of time is lost.
You seem to be really about the whole optimized no time wasted perfect games but it hardly ever works out that way even with a team man. Yes I'm sure I'm not a time waster. Yes I'm sure I know how to play this game optimally as possible in solo. Yes I'm sure that it's possible to smoke SWF as a solo surv because of game knowledge alone. I may have to figure out information on my own but that's okay because it's not difficult to do. Let me tell you something I tell a lot of people in game. It doesn't take using your full cognitive ability to play this game somewhat decent. Most of this stuff becomes second nature and I do a lot of this automatically as I'm playing the game. I'm not sweating it out trying to remember pallet locations or where killer/survivors have been because it's not difficult to just keep all that info on tab ready to go. Solo is not difficult. I will reinforce this. It's just not.
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Most matches on average last maybe 6 minutes.
All of your solo matches last 6 minutes on average? I see. Would definitely like to see a continuous stream of that.
So no it's definitely not a minute wasted to wait 20 seconds if not less to save someone or let someone else save.
...you do realize that you are the one that said, "The time lost either way is maybe a minute. I like longer matches anyway," right?
I mentioned that as the map goes on I keep a mental map in my head where it is highly likely pallets are still in play or have been used.
Yeah, like I was saying, you assuming that pallets have been used just because a chase has been done in an area means that you are restricted to other parts of the map that may not be as favorable. You can choose to believe that it was the best course of action - it may not be true though. Only if there was a way for you to know...
You don't need SWF to do that. Most times in solo 2 people do that anyways.
Which 2 solos? The one that you can't see? Or the other one that you can't see? Perhaps it's the other other one you can't see? Does that include you or no?
You seem to be really about the whole optimized no time wasted perfect games but it hardly ever works out that way even with a team man.
I don't know - maybe you just have a bad team?
Solo is not difficult. I will reinforce this. It's just not.
I'm not saying that Solo is difficult. I'm saying that SWF with voice communication makes winning incredibly easy if they want it to be.
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On average yes. Most people want to get out so they will focus gens done. I would say on average every 6 of my ten matches are over. Sorry I don't stream.
Yes altogether, waiting, going for save, healing and getting back on gen take maybe a minute. It's not a big deal man.
I'm assuming sure. But I'm usually right.
I'm not sure what you're point was here... Yes? I guess
Hey if optimized is the way you like to play then that's your thing I'm not knocking it. I'm just sayin no plan survives first contact. But I don't have a "team" or anything.
Sure I get that but all the stuff you were saying about SWF sharing info I'm just saying it's still really easy to get all that info yourself. You don't need an info sharing network to figure out any of that info.
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increase speed when activate bloodlust.No pallets or other things easy to counter.Need to make good gen's regress.
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On average yes. Most people want to get out so they will focus gens done. I would say on average every 6 of my ten matches are over. Sorry I don't stream.
You don't stream? Well you at least put out videos, right, since you seem to know what your average match length is. Unless you time your match length with your wristwatch. ...it's not just a random guess you are telling us, is it?
I'm assuming sure. But I'm usually right.
I guess we'll never know!
I'm not sure what you're point was here... Yes? I guess
My point was that, because you specifically mentioned "2 players," I figured you knew which two, despite the fact that you are all solos. How do you determine which 2 solo players should look for totems, and 2 other solos should push gens as quickly as possible if you don't even know where they are and what they are doing?
Hey if optimized is the way you like to play then that's your thing I'm not knocking it. I'm just sayin no plan survives first contact. But I don't have a "team" or anything.
If you don't have a "team," then how would you even know that "it hardly ever works out that way even with a team man?" Or maybe this is just an observation you made watching other people play. Perhaps you are watching some inefficient SWF players.
Sure I get that but all the stuff you were saying about SWF sharing info I'm just saying it's still really easy to get all that info yourself. You don't need an info sharing network to figure out any of that info.
I'm not saying that solos can't get the information they need - I'm saying that solos can't get them as efficiently and quickly as SWF can - and time management is good chunk of what this game is all about. But maybe that's what you are saying - that both Solo and SWF are incredibly easy. Fair enough. I guess what you want is for everyone to be just focusing on buffing the killers then. Gotcha.
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Sure that's fair enough but what I'm saying is it's not that detrimental to gather all that info as a solo because it's not that hard to just use game knowledge.
No I dont put out videos. It's not hard to judge the amount of time spent in a match. It's part of my job to judge time.
Why would I not be able to know this if I didn't have a team? It's common sense. It's not rocket surgery. Anyone who's done time in the service knows plans never go to plan and trying to play this game optimally follows the same format dude
All in all it's not a brain heavy game. It doesn't take a strategic genius to play this game. You're comin at me all wrong man I'm just tryna have a civil discussion but it feels like you think I'm attacking you.
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You know what? If you are truly being honest with yourself, and that's the answer you've arrived at, then I'm not going to fault you for it.
But I would also consider this: perhaps what you believe is 'information retrieved easily from the game' that most people struggle to obtain without SWF is that you just naturally have good instinct and gaming sense. Your guesses just works out for you more often than not, much like you "knowing" what part of the map is the most desirable for a chase despite not having the information on exactly which pallets are still available in which area. Or you 'knowing' whether it's favorable to look for a hex totem or to hunker down on a gen, despite not having information on how others are spending their time.
But ultimately, there's a huge difference in having keen instinct and information that are handed to you in a silver platter. You repeatedly saying how easy it is for solo players certainly don't help those players, especially if they don't have that 'instinct' that some people do. Hopefully you understand that.
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That's a fair enough point honestly. I do guess a lot but they're educated guesses. It's also true that there's nothing like having eyes around the map with SWF. I just try not to rely on it. I'm definitely not debating that it's certainly more helpful to have a team communicating to you stuff. I'm only saying that all that info I can usually get myself.
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