Advice for the devs
1.) Stop designing killers with weak powers this whole logic "we want killers to be fun not strong" take this and throw it out the window.
2.) Dont be afraid to make a killer billy level there is nothing wrong with this i actually think all killers should be close if not billy level start working to create more killers who are fun and strong.
3.) Fun should not be the only thing that you base a killer off it should be will this power have an impact within the game or will it be ghostface who actually does nothing.
4.) Im gonna be honest if you guys dont start stepping up your design game people are gonna smarten up and they are not gonna waste money on these awful designs some will probably the ones who have money to waste but what you need to worry about is the smart ones who know that ghostface trademark means nothing if it cant preform in game.
First it was ghostface getting leaked then was the outfit which i understood why as its hard to get that license at the moment with whats going on now its just ghostface is actual trash tier.
Im sorry but this ones gotta be said how many hours in the game does the people designing these killers have you dont have to name drop but now this has got to be made public because a lot of us are questioning what is going on behind the scenes someone either has never played the game but knows how to code or they play the game and have never made it past rank 20.
You can argue the ptb is for finding things like this but the community can argue you wouldn't have this problem if you guys took the time to learn the metas of your own game and started understanding the core mechanics that make a killer good.
1.) Map Pressure.
2.) Powers that help in a chase.
Example
Hillbilly Chainsaw
Hag traps
Nurse Blink
Spirit Gap Close
Myers Instant Down
3.) Ability to end a chase fast as gens go fast in this meta.
4.) Slugging a killer that has slug potential is a game changer in almost every situation.
There's many more things i could list but this is the gist see you guys would know this if you actually played the game which now im starting to question if you guys really play the game or just play the dev build all day.
What people are tired of seeing is basic M1 killers with nothing to help them in a chase its lame man it honestly is.
Edit STOP MAKING KILLERS LIKE THIS
Comments
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I agree. The mentality they don't design Killers with viability in mind is scary as #########.
Pretty much confirms they are unable to create Killers that are both fun AND strong. At the end of the day, if the Killer struggles more than Billy has to at high levels, they are unviable and not worth playing if you want to win. As a player who wishes to win, why shouldn't their favorite Killer be viable at ANY Rank? What's the point of buying a Killer to only have them be effective Ranks 15-20?
@not_Queen it seems to me like the design team is afraid of making Killers strong because Survivors might not have fun going against them. Honestly, it shouldn't be the designer's priority to make the Survivor side "fun." Case in point, all of these "fun" Killers are actually some of the most UNFUN to face as a Survivor.
A fun Killer is a strong Killer that is capable of giving a fair and even match to equal skilled Survivors, not one that can be easily defeated through skill-less gameplay, such as holding M1 on an object to stop a debuff, or performing monotonous tasks to counter a power. People don't like Nurse not because she is unfair, she isn't, but because Survivors lack the forethought that is required to face a good Nurse player.
Why should fun take priority over viability in what can be considered a competitive game? Shouldn't both fun and viability be EQUAL in terms of game design? And if you have to sacrifice one for the other, then it is a bad design, period.
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Cant agree more.
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+1
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Viability IS fun, in my opinion. The type of person that mains killer is willing to constantly go 1v4 in an effort to come out on top. I would wager we're more competitive than the average person. It's not that I can't stand the thought of a loss, but I hate feeling like the deck is completely stacked against me from the start in a game. That isn't fun to me.
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They don't think on the killers side because survivors are the majority. Just take a look on how they treat Plague, Pig, Legion (it still hurts me) and now... Ghostface? If Ghostface remain the same in the final version I'm not gonna pretend that I'm surprised lol
And yeah, the whole argument "killers need to be fun, not op"
fun = killers with useless powers
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Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Tbh ghost is fun however it's difficult to get survivors
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We still need some steppingstone killers. Not every killer should be billy level since we need steppingstones like Trapper for newer players however most should be buffed.
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Incorrect. An easy to play character can still be viable at high ranks. Just because a character is good doesn't mean others should be bad, that's bad game design.
Nurse is a viable Killer, but requires high amounts of skill to pull of her insane potential. A correctly balanced game would allow a Killer like Trapper, who is easier to play, to have a wider variety of options than someone like Nurse in order to remain viable even at high ranks.
This isn't something like a fighting game where there are clear interactions of balance and counter picks. This is an asymmetric game where every Killer is only countered by whatever perks and gameplay style the Survivors choose to play.
So when a Killer is countered by nearly every single aspect of the game, like Trapper or Wraith, they aren't an easy to play "stepping stone" killer. In fact, Trapper and Wraith are hard to play ar high rank BECAUSE they lack the ability to properly keep up. I shouldn't have to learn a completely new Killer just to have a chance if I've spent dozens on the one I actually find fun.
When you are held back directly by the character's design simply because the devs don't want the other side to feel like they are "facing an overpowered Killer" it's pretty bad game design.
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They also teach you the basics AKA steppingstones. The devs themselves have said that not every killer is meant to be viable.
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Ok.. just curious what makes him fun then? Killers role is to hunt and kill... if he can't do that...I'm not understanding how you are having fun since he's literally an M1 killer who can rarely get off his power. You'd be better off playing uncloaked wraith if that's what you want and at least that would be free. I don't mean to sound condescending.. just generally curious how he's fun for you. Am I missing something?
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That alone wouldn’t really make him viable since he still has to reset them.
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Wraith is Bae. How dare you! 😡
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It would make him more viable but I doubt you could make him R1 viable while keeping him a steppingstone.
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And that's bad game design mate.
I'm going to destroy your logic with one character: Ryu from Street Fighter. He is entirely made to be a "stepping stone" fighter that teaches you the bare basics of how to play a fighting game.
Yet Ryu remains an extremely competitive fighter in every game he appears in, and players have made careers out of playing these "beginner" level characters like Ryu and Ken, such as the legendary Daigo Umehara.
This idea that because they are a beginning character they shouldnt be viable is absolutely terrible man. A character can be a beginner character and still be viable if the developers have GOOD game design. You are just being apologetic about this because you don't want every Killer to be at Billy level, you said this yourself. Aka, you only want a few Killers to be viable while making all the others basically worthless.
A character does not have to require a high skill cap in order to be viable, and this goes for every video game. Soldier 76 is the most basic hero in Overwatch, yet 76 remains an extremely viable character at all levels of competitive play.
This isn't an RPG where "stepping stone" ######### makes sense. This is a competitive game by the ranking system (no matter how flawed it is) and every Killer should be viable in climbing that ladder.
This "stepping stone" nonsense is a narrative the devs have created to justify their lack of creative character design, and to allow them to spoon feed Killer players new content without needing to put actual effort into balancing it.
Even Smash Ultimate, a game with over 70 characters, manages to be more balanced than Dead by Daylight. Granted, I know I said DbD isn't a fighting game, but the logic of creating viable characters still applies universally.
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@weirdkid5 first I’ve never played Streetfighter or Overwatch. Did you read my original comment? I guess not since I said that most needed buffed but some needed to be steppingstones.
Please tell me how you’d make Trapper a viable steppingstone.
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It doesn't matter if you've never played them. The point I'm making is that characters deemed as "stepping stone" and "beginner" characters can completely be viable competitively, if they are designed well. Trapper is not designed well. I read your original comment, don't make a stupid argument like that. Your stance that some need to "remain stepping stones" is pretty underwhelming and shows you don't really understand game design.
If you've never played any competitive games like this, then I have reason to believe you do NOT fully understand the nuances of balancing a game for competitive play.
This is the problem hypocrisy you are presenting. You are claiming Trapper is a stepping stone, but he's actually super difficult to win with unless the Survivors are absolutely braindead. That is simply bad game design. It is bad design if, no matter how well a player performs, they are utterly stacked from winning based on the fact their character is designed to be bad intentionally. A character that is a "stepping stone" should actually be EASIER to play and easier to win with because of that. A "stepping stone" character actually should be close to overpowered for it to truly help new players. A bad character isn't going to teach people how to play, it's going to make them quit the game.
To answer your question, it isn't my job to decide how Trapper should be balanced, it's my job to relay to the devs that in his current state, Trapper is not a worthy character. It shouldn't be up to the community to figure out how to balance the game. That shows a clear lack of functional game design from the developer at the most fundamental level.
With that said, you still ignored the fact that Ryu is a beginner character, yet is one of the most viable in the entire series. You simply ignore points that counter your dull notion that some characters should be intentionally bad and focus on claiming someone didn't read your comment, rather than come up with a reasonable rebuttal.
My case has been made. BHVR are poor at designing Killers. That's just a fact.
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Well I’ve never played them so of course I won’t fully address it since I know nothing about it. He is a steppingstone killer meant for low rank play and teaching, why do you continue to ignore the fact that I said most should be buffed.
I use to play F13 and I currently play Apex Legends, Just because I play different ones than you doesn’t mean that I don’t play any.
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Don't we have enough low tier killers to teach new people the basics? How many do we need? Why does the killer roster need to be stacked with "fun killers to teach newbies" instead of fun killers that are also viable to play?
I am bored of the excuse that BHVR needs to cater to new people so they can learn the game. That's the purpose of having this ranking system.. so new people don't play with rank 1 seasoned people.
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It's a shame that we've reached this point, really it is. What I say next is neither out of malice nor anger, but sheer disappointment and disbelief. To those developers in charge of designing and balancing the last few killers:
- You either have no idea how this game is played, or you don't care.
- You need to consider other career options within Behavior, as your mechanical design skills have been proven to be far below par (Plague, Legion, and now Ghostface).
- You've completely forgotten that survivors have a 3rd person camera.
- You're ignorant of or willfully ignore the fact that this game is chase oriented and favors mobility.
- Your idea of how stealth works in your game is not only completely incorrect, but an impossibility that is easily discovered after a single QA match with your new killer (using skilled survivors as your testers, and not the rank 35 internal tester(s) you seem to favor).
- You have no respect for community feedback and take none of it into consideration. None of it. Not a single meaningful constructive post or list of suggestions offered by experienced killers and survivors alike.
- You focus on changing/buffing/nerfing things that -NO ONE ASKED FOR- over actual issues within the game. Ex. Why buff unbreakable (a situational but useful perk) over something completely unusable like Deja Vu or Monstrous Shrine?
- After three years of consistent disappointment in your ability to provide a fun and healthy experience for both sides, I will end with this: You have no passion for this game, you have no knowledge of this game, and your efforts seem focused more on promoting cosmetics and temporary hype than refining the overall gameplay experience of your players.
I do blame myself, though. There's still that stupid little monkey on my shoulder trying to convince me that BVHR could pull through here with a home run. I've put my hand on that hot element too many times now, and listening to that monkey seems so much less appealing. When I see content like this, it makes me happy I haven't spent actual money on your game since Freddy.
In short BVHR, if you ever decide to release good content and improve the health of your game, you've got my dollars. Until then, enjoy one less sale.
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F13 is one of the most ungodly unbalanced games that ever existed and you should never reference that game when speaking on balancing aspects. Apex Legends is a BR game that has too many variables of randomness for it to ever truly be competitive. Fyi, I have played both of these games extensively myself, especially Apex Legends.
You should most should be buffed. Every killer that isn't Nurse or Billy SHOULD be buffed. Again, you saying that he's a stepping stone Killer only viable for low ranks shows your lack of understanding why every character in a competitive game should at least ATTEMPT to be made viable by the developer.
This isn't an RPG where something like stepping stones makes sense. This is a competitive game, so everything should remain viable. Like in Apex Legends, every character is viable to play. The most beginner friendly character, Lifeline, is easily the BEST character in the whole game.
Your notion that stepping stone should = only good at the beginner level is terrible. Also, we have a ranking system so low level players aren't met with high level ones. Therefore, jd someone can get to high level with Trapper, he should remain viable.
Play an actual competitive game at least once in your life. F13 and Apex are not competitive.
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It's so true. No develeopment team in the world has this mentality that a x thing can be bad because its fun. If they added a QM and ranked as two different modes this would be a lot easier too balance, as they could either balanced the whole game for QM or for ranked. in the games current form they want both in one mode and it just doesn't work like that at all. They really do need too stop making killers weak because they are fun, Plauge isn't fun because she so weak, new Legion isn't fun because hes too weak, and ghostface isn't fun because he is too weak. 3 killers in a row that are all unfun and incredibly weak, and the community is saying it but they won't change them.
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No. We got a tutorial for that.
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Why should people rely on a killer to teach the basics instead of a whole tutorial that is in the menu. I believe that's an excuse to keep killers weak. "Stepping Stones" shouldn't be a thing in the first place in this game. You should like to play how you want with who you want and still reach rank 1. However, the amount of skill required on probably differs, but it should be doable with ANY killer not just a select few.
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Agreed. These lackluster killers are getting old.
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Man, this thread says so much that I've been wanting to put to words. I can't put it better, so I won't try.
I will chime in with this though. I have never played a competitive game (fighting or otherwise), in which a basic character is not viable simply because they're meant to teach the game. As someone who's played street fighter for 25 years, Ryu has always been competitively viable, even though he's only there to teach you QCF, QCB, and DP motions. Guile has always remained viable even though he's only really there to explain what a charge character is. Zangief is nothing more than "This is how a 360 motion works", yet sees top tier play.
Overwatch has been covered, so lets move to a different game. Dragon Ball FighterZ. SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta are the two most basic characters in the game. They are the marquee ryu and ken of that game. They are widely considered as 2 of the best anchors in the game. They're basic, yet 2 of the best in the game.
Basic gameplay =/= unviable at a competitive level. There's nothing about trapper thats different from any other m1 killer as far teaching you the game, unless you're suggesting that m1 killers shouldn't be viable in general.
As for making trapper viable at higher ranks, here's a few suggestions:
- Make his traps function similar to hag, where he starts the game with all held and doesn't have to collect them and place them one at a time.
- Make dark dye base kit.
- Allow him to reset traps without needing to pick them up first.
- Trapper was loosely based on Jason, who is notorious for always being right behind you. In this regard, let trapper teleport to trapped survivors.
- Let Trapper, and I cannot stress this enough, trap objectives. Let him put traps in unavoidable places so that you're forced to disarm them to get to the objective. Example: Let him put a trap right next to a generator, or right under a hooked survivor. This would actually force survivors to disarm his traps, buying him valuable time to get around the map that he doesn't otherwise have.
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A lot of people have mentioned that certain killers should be weak, so as to be stepping stones. That's a really bizarre line of thinking to me.
Here's an anecdote: a couple of my buddies picked up the game a few weeks ago. One of them streamed his killer gameplay at rank 17 as Hillbilly. He didn't realize it would be optimal to use the chainsaw to move around the map. He also only landed 1 saw the entire the match. He then played a few games as Myers. He got into tier 3 once in the entire match.
Why is the assumption that a rank 15-20 killer player will be this optimal machine relative to rank 15-20 survivors that are just learning the game? They're on the same level in terms of skill at that point. Does anyone remember playing against Nurse in their first 30 hours of play? It was a joke because that Nurse had no idea how to blink. New killers are just as bad at the game as new survivors. This line of thinking that we need intentionally underpowered and easily countered killers because of the noob survivor experience is baffling to me.
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I believe it is paramount for you guys to read this thread in its absolute entirety, and to not miss a single word.
I honestly believe it is time for you guys to change your philosophy on how you design a character. For the sake of the game, please, make all Killers viable at all Ranks.
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Advice for Hexyl
1. Stop thinking that only "strong" killers like Billy and Nurse are worth playing. This game is supposed to be fun.
2. Play someone else other than Billy. There is nothing wrong with playing killers other than Billy.
3. Fun is the only thing that matters in a game. Tying fun to your desire to win and stomp your enemies is a recipe for saltiness and discontent.
4. If you are going to threaten the Devs do it properly and not in such a passive aggressive fashion.
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So umm why do we need stepping stones?
what happened to play and figure it out lol
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Wait a second, why do we need stepping stone killers? It’s not like u can tell someone who is a normal nurse not to play nurse. U have no control over the killer...
so what’s the point again?
lol rank 10-20 wraith pig Freddy legion traps and umm doc only 5-10 hag clown plague Myers hunt and doc 2-5 billy and only nurse at 1.... u all are now teachers go teach!
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1. They are the only ones worth playing if you are playing to win.
2. If you are trying to win, the other viable option than Billy is Nurse, possibly Huntress.
3. Fun is completely subjective to each person. If a person has fun by striving for victory, it is entirely their right to do so. You attempting to chastise a player for doing what they should be doing, trying to win, is way more toxic than that. You are literally trying to control the way a player plays their game through fear and belittlement. There is a great saying, if you're not trying to win, what's the point of keeping score? What's the point of the game in general if you aren't trying to win? Sure, you can have "fun" if you want, but if you seriously lose out on your fun because someone is better than you and destroys you, that isn't their fault. It's yours, and, news flash, that's how games work. There is always a winner and always a loser. Stop trying to make DbD a game where participation trophies are handed out just because it's "fun." It is NOT fun to receive inflated rewards that players did not earn properly, nor is it fun to have your favorite character literally be the most useless piece of garbage the planet has seen. This is what someone shared on here as "The Scrub." Not because you're bad, but because you mentally shackle yourself behind this false blanket of "fun" and refuse to play to win. Do not chastise other players for doing the very purpose games exist, for competition. Losing isn't supposed to be fun. It CAN be if it is a good match, but losing is supposed to induce feelings of failure, defeat, and sometimes frustration. This is how games work, be it video games, gambling, sports, or whatever. You choosing to play the game in a casual manner is absolutely fine. But do NOT chastise players for playing to win.
4. He's right. Eventually people are going to catch on and it'll be too late. Burnout is a completely possible thing if they continue making such garbage Killers. I'm sure someone will say "oh but they hit their highest peak not long ago." Yeah, maybe, but that doesn't mean Jack ######### if no one is spending money on the DLC to support the game.
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Advice for Mochan!
- People who play the game competitively will tell you that the only Killers who matter in the higher ranks are Billy, Spirit and Nurse. Thus, from a competitive aspect, they ARE the only ones worth playing. Also, some people enjoy playing games competitively, so stop telling them not to play how they want and how they have fun just because you think you know better.
- Stop telling people how to play the game. When they mention Billy, it's that Billy is a good example of a Killer who is both fun to play casually and viable competitively without being too underpowered or overpowered. Billy is the line in the sand that most Killers should aim to strive for.
- Yes, people play games to have fun, and for some that means doing their absolute best, improving, and winning. This will inevitably lead to games that are less stellar and more upsetting than others, but that is part of the game. STOP telling people how play the game.
- No one is threatening anyone: it was just a clear promise that shows that the devs need to get their act together for new content or the game will die faster than Deathgarden's original release.
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Someone had to tell it. Thank you.
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I completely agree with this notion, I personally will not be buying this "chapter" for $7/8 when all they're giving us is a half assed killer and no Survivor, Not to mention all his perks are god awful and serve no practical purpose other than QOL, his only decent perk is Thrilling tremors and the perks effect 16 seconds, is not long enough to justify wasting the perk slot for it when you can literally run BBQ and get the same information that Tremors gives you with which gens are being worked on.The only way I can see Thrilling tremors worth a slot in a practical scenario is if the gens were blocked for 30-35 seconds which gives you enough time to traverse around the map.I reqlly hope that he gets buffed all around, killer and perk wise otherwise this chapter will be very disappointing considering there was so much hype behind it.
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"Stop thinking that only "strong" killers like Billy and Nurse are worth playing. This game is supposed to be fun"
Just to clear this one up i actually do main Hillbilly but funny enough you seem to have looked through my past posts but little do you actually know i play a lot of killers there bud Hillbilly,Freddy,Huntress,Plague,Clown,Legion,Nurse,Trapper,Wraith Now notice how i play 3 viable killers and the rest are really bad?
I feel like once you've played the worst killers in the game you better understand what makes a good killer and why more good killers need to exist i love billy but its lame when i have to play billy for fun or else i get basically bullied and thats honestly what its like not playing the 3 top killers in the game.
"Fun is the only thing that matters in a game. Tying fun to your desire to win and stomp your enemies is a recipe for saltiness and discontent."
As you notice clearly you dont take into account that fun is subjective i find billy fun because hes not easy to bully like lets say legion billy has a power while legion is just a awful design out of a disney horror movie which in turn leaves room for survivors to bully him its time they stop making killers who's powers are throttled by survivors.
Example Plague
The survivors dont have to cleanse theres no real threat to your power at all
Example Legion
Survivors dont feel a threat because his power is not a threat
Example Ghostface
Survivors can take away your power by looking you at.
Wanna know what all 3 of these killers have in common they are disney brand killers who dont really give a threat to the game anymore the survivors control the outcome of the game with these killers. So bud explain to me how in any way shape or form is it fun to play a killer with no power i torture myself by playing these killers to again continue to gain a understanding of what makes a good killer and i hate to say it looks like those days are gone welcome disney made killers.
"If you are going to threaten the Devs do it properly and not in such a passive aggressive fashion. "
What are you even on about no one is threatening anyone im pointing out that if they continue down this cycle of making trashcans smart people are gonna catch on and not waste money on trashcan killers take it how you want but behavior needs to be informed on how people are feeling because a lot of us are just plain out tired man.
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I hope you mean viable but not 100% balanced
Power should come with skill, which is part of what makes Nurse so brilliant. Killer's that are easy to use and have a low skill ceiling like Bubba should not be just as powerful.
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"Dont be afraid to make a killer billy level there is nothing wrong with this i actually think all killers should be close if not billy level start working to create more killers who are fun and strong."
Viable is pretty much close to billy level if we are being honest billy can win and lose but he still has the core mechanics that make him viable.
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Fair enough. It probably wouldn't be the level I'd personally pick - I would of gone huntress myself who is a step below Billy IMO
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Make more chapters like spirit's chapter. Good killer that relies on skill without many restrictions. All round decent good perks on both sides. It seemed like this was a passion project compared to some of the latest ones, especially ghostface's "chapter"
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I don't agree with this notion.
Again, Ryu is viable and probably the most balanced character in the entirity of SF, and is also the easiest to use.
Easy to use should not suddenly mean less powerful. It should mean wider options, at the cost of these options not being as EFFECTIVE as a Killer who has only one option, like Nurse.
Giving the Killer more options in a match will suddenly make them more viable without buffing them at all really. Such as giving Trappdr 3 traps at the start of the match. This gives Trapper many more options and a much faster start on his trap game, suddenly he's a MUCH more viable Killer.
Every Killer should be viable. All of them. It's dumb to even say a single Killer shouldn't be viable at Rank 1.
At the end of the day, only somewhat skilled Killers are going to make it to the top given how top tier Survivor squads play. Making Killers intentionally ######### at high ranks is absolutely the worst design choice they could make. Not only does it remove variety from the high ranks, but no one wants the character they like the most to be held back by a stupid design choice such as "stepping stones."
You mentioned a low skill ceiling. The problem with someone like Nurse is she is high floor and high ceiling. Bubba is low floor low ceiling. They need to tackle characters like Bubba in the fashion Ryu is tackled in SF; low floor, but HIGH ceiling.
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I feel the Devs try to trend killers to a more "fun for survivors" type of playstyle due to the simple fact that survivors outnumber killer players 4 to 1 so they want to tend to the majority of players. Thats fine, i can sorta understand that.
The problem with that sort of idea lies with the fact killers are also a vital part of the game, without killers theres no game, end of. So maybe appeal to killer players as well? Also, as @Hexyl suggested, fun is subjective. Some survivors find it fun to loop and bully a killer all game, then T-bag them at the exit gates and leave. and if they find that fun fair enough, theres gonna be people like that in this sorta game and im guilty of doing it myself from time to time. But at the end of the day this is an asymmetrical horror game. one of the key words there being horror. If you don't take the power role of these types of games seriously then people won't play seriously, meaning rather than stick with this game, with the grind and the appeal of different characters, they'll find another game that does it better. Quite a few of the people i play with find a thrill in the fact that a killer is scary and want the challenge of going against it, or should be at least.
The Devs are either too scared to make dangerous killers or they simple don't know how to. Start playing your game or we won't. And before someone like @Mochan starts calling me out saying "im threatening the devs". Nah mate, im being realistic. People buy and play this game for the fun of it and the functionality of it. Most people, like myself, find competition fun, hence where the whole idea of the game comes into play. If that fun goes, weather it be one side isn't at where they need to be (balance wise) then people are going to move onto other games, simple. And we can leave functionality of the game to a later discussion.
If a valid competitor comes onto the market for this type of game that isnt a cheap knock-off. DbD has gotta make a lot of improvements and fast or its gonna lose a lot of its playerbase.
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I thought of a slight change to GhostFace, but I don't want to make some survivor mains cry in terror, we all know they will find a way to say "WaAaAa gHoStFacE oP pLs NeRf"
I agree on this post though
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I really think they neither play their game nor do they know what a good killer is anymore,Ghost face is so cucked just by the camera. Which makes me question the design process in general of killers its as if they are made in a bhvr echo chamber where everything is ok somehow.
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