http://dbd.game/killswitch
High Rank Gameplay: You Guys Are Right
Introduction: Y'all Are Right!
I genuinely thought everyone on the forums were over exaggerating how underpowered killers are at high ranks. However, instead of assuming everyone was over exaggerating the problem, I decided to figure the truth out myself, and I got to say, y'all are right: M1 killers are laughably, weak. I was a Nurse main for so long that I didn't even see the chaos M1 killers were going through. Before I knew how underpowered M1 killers were, I knew that M1 killers would struggle at high ranks, but I didn't know they struggled way worse than I thought. It was terrible, I genuinely had the worst experience ever when I played a M1 killer because I felt so powerless against decent survivors. Also, I'm not claiming that I played perfectly either because I made some mistakes in my wild M1 journey. However, even through I'm not a perfect killer, I did try my best as an M1 killer and it wasn't enough most of the times. Usually, assuming I played PERFECTLY, it would barely break even at a 2K.
Some QoL Changes: BL & Entity Window Blockers
I feel like this would benefit a lot of M1 killers and not M2 killers. Don't worry, Nurse, Spirit, and Hag won't get any stronger with this changes so keep an open mind about what I'm suggesting.
Note: Numbers are just placeholders and are subject to change.
Bloodlust now triggers when survivors fast vault a window while in a chase: This has a cool-down of 10 seconds, which means if you vault 3 times while the cool-down is active, it will only count as 1 vault until the cool-down expires.
- 2 vaults = BL1
- 4 vaults = BL2
- 6 vaults = BL3
When the chase ends, the killer will keep their BL progress for 10 seconds (to compensate for the poor chase detection). If another chase is initiated during those 10 seconds, the killer will keep their BL progress. Otherwise, their BL progress will reset and they will have to re-earn BL.
It goes without saying, but I'll still say it anyways just in case some forum users are curious. You'll still lose BL when you attack a survivor and when you break a pallet.
The Entity will now block a window if a survivor vaults over them twice while in a chase, instead of 3 vaults.
Reasoning: BL & Entity Window Blockers Changes
The reason why BL is a mechanic is because it prevents cheesy gameplay and to compensate killers for bad map RNG. This includes vaulting strong windows, or more commonly, when two strong windows are beside each other. This prevents the killer from feeling helpless due to back map RNG. Keep in mind, vaulting pallets won't add progress to BL as the killer has the decision to break them.
The window changes is to add more compensation for the killer if they get bad map RNG.
Now, I'm going to answer a comment that I already see coming:
"Wouldn't this boost bad killers?"
No, because the new BL changes will now work on window vaults, and not on pallet vaults. This means killers who don't break pallets will get punished accordingly while killers who get bad map RNG will get compensated.
Edit: Fixed grammar and added some clarification.
Comments
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I still feel it would boost bad killers *cough* Billy *cough* LF. Although I just wish they would buff stealth so we don't have to loop like morons all the time.
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I think BL will boost killers against LT vaults if they loop them clockwise, but other than that, it should work as intended. I was thinking about all of the scenarios in which it could be used to boost killers instead of compensating them.
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Play Leather Face at Rank 1-4 and tell me how that goes, you'll understand EVEN more how most people who use Mid-Tier killers feel. But Leather Face is dumpster tier so thats a bit too easy...
Try Myers, Pig, Freddy, any actual Mid-Tier killers for like 15-30 matches and you'll understand why some of us want to commit death by DC. (Except I don't DC even in horrible circumstances, but you get the idea)
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I main LF at red ranks because I like him as a character, when you play him you gotta be good though. However I don't want Billy's that miss their saws all the time to be rewarded to buff LF.
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First chase, just got SF (Spirit Fury) activated. Most pallets were safe, so I had to break them or else I would get punished later. This is what happened soon after activated SF :(
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In the perfect dimension this games optimized, and everything works perfectly. Sadly I don't have the patience though to play such a inherently bad killer... No offence.
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Feels El Saddo my dude.
When they fix Loops though you'll expect this to not be as much of an issue anymore, maybe even having pallets not be omega safe anymore will also give all Killers more pressure as a chase won't take 10 minutes to do because a SWF with all insta-heals didn't loop you forever.
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The way I see it is if I get good at LF and get good at them all. I can use my Saw most of the time but can also M1 if everything is stacked against be I become a better killer. The only killers I struggle with at red ranks at Huntress because my aim is trash and nurse because my aim is trash.
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Once Loops are fixed, you'll see a boost in lower tier killers being used in Red Ranks, cause the infinites and 19 safe pallets won't exist anymore. (Depends on the map btw)
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I made sure to get some highlights on my wild journey, and they aren't pretty. I admit I wasn't perfect and probably made some mistakes, but I did try and it wasn't enough.
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My team genrushed two huntress and a Billy at rank 2
The thing is..none of us was SWF.
all three killers played REALLY well,but couldn't stand a chance against good SOLO survivors.
We all escaped in those matches except one guy who got camped in the end.
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Now that's rare for a SOLO team to actually do that.
Its more rare than your ruin not being found in the first minute of the game!
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We all try my dude, the best we can do until something is fixed, changed, or considered for change.
Its the only thing you can really do in times like these.
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True, we have to make good things from a bad situation. Hopefully, M1 killers will get some love because bad map RNG can mean the difference in a "GG".
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@NMCKE Exactly, a lot of things can determine if a Killer goes from "GG EZ" to suicide by DC (Not promoting DCing btw it just rhymes)
The map, the loops, the infinite's on said maps, the Survivors perks, their skill level, their play styles, your certain killer skill set with the specific killer you use, a lot of things... Survivors have it easier when it comes to this, just don't get The Game map and just take it from there. (Shelter Woods too but that's debatable)
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No it isn't. At high ranks survivors know to do gens alone rather than gangbang a gen together. They know how to hold a chase or stealth. When everyone is spread out it is much harder to apply pressure and within the first 80 seconds 3 gens can pop. If you aren't in a chase solo you are on a gen. The only time solos suffer is when there is Noed. Because as soon as one swf gets hooked the others do ######### all until they are saved. (PLZ BHVR ADD A TOTEM COUNTER TO SMALL GAME OR BUILT IN)
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I agree with your principle and the problems you found.
That said, I never think Bloodlust is the answer. Bloodlust is a badly designed band aid fix for the games terrible map design. If we properly fixed the maps we wouldn't need Bloodlust.
Maps are the core issue of the problem.
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+1
You're right, we wouldn't need BL if maps were perfectly designed (EX: Jungle Gyms shouldn't spawn directly beside of the Killer Shack).
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First: Glad to hear that you realized that M1 killers are too weak against good survivors. :)
Concerning the main part: Blocking the window after 2 fast vaults sounds could work. Skilled survivors should still be able to make the chase last for quite some time.
The goal however should be well designed maps. (And don't forget, guys: Well designed maps are one thing. Another thing is that a 2nd objective is also needed.)
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I also think if maps were designed better it would inadvertently buff the weaker killers and nerf the stronger ones by design. This would mean a lot of the weaker killer might not even need buffs if the maps were changed.
The issue with this is that at the rate they are changing maps it would take them years, which is why even though it would be the best change, we probably have to look at the next best option.
This being just buffing those weaker killers and small patching some of the map issues.
Although they do need to find a way to give killers more time for their objectives. They need to slow the survivors down somehow. Many windows are also just way too powerful and need to be adjusted. There needs to be more mind gameable pallets, there are too many just safe ones.
As mentioned before, windows should be blocked after 2 vaults instead of 3.
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The maps and the tremendous number of safe pallets are the biggest problems for M1 killers. I'm not convinced that the parameters can stay the same across ranks in an asymmetrical game. The reason the maps, loops, and pallets exist the way they are is for rank 15-20, and I get that because they don't know where the pallets are and don't know what "loop" means. But it's a problem when someone with 1000 hours has every pallet spawn memorized and can squeeze every drop out of them. I think moving to an "every loop is unsafe but ultimately loopable" philosophy is the way to go and would indirectly buff a lot of killers. I just hope the map reworks are done quickly.
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Concerning the main part: Blocking the window after 2 fast vaults could work. Skilled survivors should still be able to make the chase last for quite some time.
True, but this should help a lot with killers who are unfortunate enough to get bad map RNG.
The goal however should be well designed maps. (And don't forget, guys: Well designed maps are one thing. Another thing is that a 2nd objective is also needed.)
You and @Blueberry are on the gold when y'all said we need better map design to get rid of BL. Furthermore, I like the idea of making games last longer to compensate for bad map RNG.
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I start to wonder if the only solution to this is altering the number of pallets the system allows to be placed based on different rank brackets. Making enough for low ranks to be alright is destroying high ranks.
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Wouldn't that encourage deranking?
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The problem is that survivors rely too heavily on pallets and windows to survive. This is why it's very difficult to nerf them by how much they need.
Survivors need more alternate ways to survive so that we can touch the windows and pallets appropriately.
This said, we can also go a completely different route. Instead of lessoning the amount of time survivors can waste, they can also finally implement the extra survivor objectives we've been wanting. This would let the survivors still waste a lot of killer time, but now the killer would have more time to waste.
Or just maybe a mix of the two.
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That's why it would need to come with dedicated servers and rank rewards finally being implemented. Maybe even an increasing blood point bonus the higher you get as well.
EDIT: They may even find a way to include Devotion level in the matchmaking equation. Basically preventing high hour players from deranking intentionally.
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@Blueberry Reworking all the maps would take many, many months, even if the devs would put priority on it. A 2nd objective could be implemented much easier and faster, that's why I'm such a fan of a 2nd objective.
A 2nd objective would also give a new impulse to long-time players.
In the end, implementing a 2nd objective would not mean that map reworks have to be abandoned.
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I'd be all for making the environments more impactful for both killers and survivors. Every map could have its own set of randomized hiding spots and quick escapes (on cooldown) for survivors while having traps and stalling mechanisms the killer could activate (also randomized). It would make the game far less repetitive and a bit more fun.
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I agree that would be probably the easiest and quickest to implement option while they slowly try and work through the maps.
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This would all work, but about the part you edited in, I think it would be solved if there was a system that keeps track of your highest rank for the season. If someone was in high ranks and then a few days later they deranked to rank 15, that could cause a red flag.
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With you having said that, what do you think of the devs wanting to address the "safe loops"?
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That would work
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The problem is that survivors rely too heavily on pallets and windows to survive. This is why it's very difficult to nerf them by how much they need.
True, but fixing the maps where two strong loops don't spawn directly beside of each other should be a start. This means you won't have all strong loops in one area, but more of having a distributed amount through out the map. In the year 4 anniversary stream, they explained it better when they talked about reworking Badham Preschool to have better distributed pallets.
Survivors need more alternate ways to survive so that we can touch the windows and pallets appropriately.
Perhaps more LoS blockers and high vegetation would satisfy that "alternate" way to survive. Thoughts?
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I also started playing some m1 killers instead of nurse and it was awful, even just at purple and green ranks.
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Yeah it's like i've mentioned before, the game needs MASSIVELY more tall grass/reeds/fog/bushes/boxes/debri/darker lighting etc.
Once all that is added pallets and window amounts and how strong they are can be nerfed quite a good deal since they won't be entirely relying on them anymore. All those extra things we are adding will allow more stealth play but more importantly allow for making jukes mid chase which is currently just not realistic against a good killer on most maps. This would add a lot more skill instead of just spam circling pallets and windows over and over.
This change is what would inadvertantly buff weaker killers and nerf the top tier killers since viability wouldn't be solely determined by how well you are at chase and how well you deal with pallets anymore.
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I like this idea a lot but mostly because I hate how strong some of the vault loops are it gives me cancer
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This man just solved high rank for us devs @Peanits @not_Queen implement this mans idea its GENIUS!!!
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I all for these changes but we need compensatory buffs to stealth play in return.
Killer detection perks need nerfs and map lighting should be returned to how it was pre 2.3.
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In all fairness, and I'm saying this as someone who plays both sides, this means that the other generators havelittle to no progress on them
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Los blockers yes high vegetation no
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I'm not sure I could 100% get behind that, from a personal perspective. Lowering the requirements and changing the conditions for bloodlust to vaults assumes that every tile is created equally. This would be a huge nerf to tiles like LT walls and the shack while not making a significant difference to some of the more powerful tiles. Two loops of the ironworks window is still a pretty long time, but two vaults in an LT wall can happen very quickly if the killer plays their cards right.
Personally, I'd rather see survivors rewarded for using windows and mindgames to keep their distance instead of encouraging them to use just pallets. With the map reworks on the way, I feel like changing bloodlust and window blockers so drastically might be a little overkill, making some tiles nearly unplayable for the survivors while not really addressing the more problematic loops.
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I think that removing strong loops for survivor will cause more harm than good. It feels like it will skill-drain survivor because their tools for expressing skill will be weakened.
Personally, I think killer balance at high ranks comes from a killer's special power to be able to outplay a survivor. Like for example, you can loop a huntress, but if you throw down pallet or vault at incorrect times, you can still hit a survivor and perform a an anti-loop mechanic. If each of killers had unique mechanics to outplay loops, survivors could still retain strong loops and express skill in surviving chases. I think a lot of killers have potential, however they keep getting weakened. Like for example, Spirit has potential to outplay a survivor with her phase walk mind-game, but that doesn't work if you can't hear a survivor to track them in phase walk. Doctor has potential to outplay a survivor at a loop, but his shock will either have poor range or long cast time on his shock. Plague has potential with puke, however the loss of threat in normal form weakens her ability to apply pressure on the map, so nobody cleanses so therefore you never get your anti-loop skill. Wraith has potential with speed boost after uncloak, but long uncloak time puts distance between survivor and killer canceling out the bonus. Myser has potential with longer lunge range in tier 3, but he takes a long time to get his evil within without add-on. Legion used to have anti-loop with his deep wound and vaulting mechanics but those got removed for downing. Trapper has potential with his traps, but the setup time is less then ideal. Pig has potential with her dash attack, but she has to crouch and she makes a noise every time she attempts it with a cast time.
I think a lot of killers have potential to be good in red ranks, but they lack either parameters to be effective, so they default to being m1 killers and just being M1 killer by default isn't good enough to beat players who are good at looping. It's really no surprise to why people say Nurse and Billy are only viable killers at red ranks. Billy can spam his chainsaw and optimizes chase times if your consistent with it and nurse can spam blinks which allow her to outplay survivors and nullify loops. so it is fair to say that killers who have strong powers are required at red ranks or they struggle.
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I'm glad they're addressing them.
That said, I'll be holding my breath to see how well they are handled and if they are actually fixed.
Also, they are fixing 2 maps in an entire year if I understood that correctly. At that rate we'll never have all the maps addressed. Map design is one of the biggest issues in the game right now and needs a much higher priority than it seems to currently have. We need a lot more maps fixed much faster than it seems are currently in the works.
I understand that is a huge undertaking, but at the same time we have been pointing this issue out for at least 2+ years, so the reason it has become such an undertaking now is because it has been ignored for so long.
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Why no high vegetation?
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Haddonfield is broken for killers. The only killer who can do well on this map is Trapper because he can shut down the house loops with traps, and if he gets you in the basement it's GG.
Also you had no Ruin, so it would be expected that 2-3 gens pop in your first chase.
If you main Nurse then you need to practice as anyone BUT Nurse. I won't deny that some killers have it way harder at high ranks, but I'm betting that you were so dependent on the strength of the Nurse that you never really learned how to mindgame or loop properly. If you did you would be more successful, though still at a disadvantage.
Like I first got to rank 1 as Freddy, worst killer in the game. I had to deal with a LOT of bullying and BS and it was a struggle every game. It got to the point where I learned how to beat this stuff, and even though it's still hard it's not as bad as it was before. Then I tried using stronger killers and WOW did I notice a difference. I was crushing survivors because I was so used to playing hard for kills that when I had a stronger killer it became almost a cakewalk. Yea there are still the occasional teams that pull one over on my Spirit, but as it stands most survivors die when I play Spirit. If they escape it's usually because I closed hatch and they got a door. Only twice this month did I have survivor legit get to the gates themselves, and 1 game I was playing super nice because 2 of my friends were survivors (they would have been dead if I played like I normally would).
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I knew someone was going to bring up LT wells eventually because this is where my system fails. However, I have a fail safe to my BL changes! :)
There could be a timer to the BL system. If a survivor vaults a window, they will have around a 7 second period where any window vaults won't count towards the BL counter (Numbers are just placeholders). This means LT walls won't get absolutely destroyed by BL, and the killer shack won't be destroyed as well.
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I know how to loop tiles, and yes, I didn't bother using Ruin because they found it practically instantly (it was rarely not found). Therefore, I decided to use a high risk build by using Blood Warden because most high ranked survivors expect the typical Ruin build. Believe it or not, it worked out a lot in my matches if I switched killers so they couldn't memorize me.
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Of course we are right we are supposed to be elite players but, we are nothing from devs PoV. I mean Rank 4-1 is all about gen rush with how many pallet the game have survivors have a chill side. Plus there are 80%? of pallets that are safe, what i hate the most is saying a billy is noob because he isn't running ruin and being looped all game.
Myself i've stopped running ruin since my ruin get destroyed at start 99% of the time and run whispers instead. I put ruin on all M1 killers even on nurse because on PS4 is quite easy to survive a nurse due to low sensitivity.
Billy on the other hand i play without ruin and sometime i lose due to RNG and gen rush with it.
All i want right now is better killers/perks variety. Clown being my fav M1 killer is one of the weakest killer at these ranks.
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Well, they did listen to our Ghostface feedback, and I think he's going to be a beast M1 killer! :)
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Current bloodlust is a joke, yeah...
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