The Trouble with Saying Hillbilly is a Balance Target
Once upon a time I was watching matt_bhvr's stream and he was talking about a lot of the similar themes we always seem to discuss, power versus fun in killers. He talked about Hillbilly in particular, saying that Billy is the ideal balance target in terms of killers. He's fun, mobile, engaging and dangerous at all states of the game and that sort of blend of lethality and engagement is the desired endstate for future and current killers in terms of design.
I think there's an issue here though, and that's the notion that Billy is even remotely balanced like any other killers, especially newer ones. It seems that one of the chief elements that the developers bear in mind nowadays in something being conditional, which would in some way balance it. This is where the differences between that mindset and Billy become the most highlighted as well, Hillbilly can literally always take down a fullhealth survivor. He doesn't need to stalk, or make them sick, hit them with a bottle or a special axe. A vault that's ill-timed, a poor hiding spot and that chase is instantly over. This isn't even counting his ability to travel across the map to threaten generators being worked on.
Compare that ability to down with a lot of the recent releases and we're seeing a weird inconsistency in terms of how threatening killers can be a given time. As far as I know the only real nerf Hillbilly has had was his flick roughly ten thousand years ago, he's often not complained about. I've seen some people suggest some of the same conditional types of limitations for him like the other killers have, some sort of gas tank element or something to limit the availability of his saw. These ideas got no traction, indicating that both survivors and killers don't really have a major issue with how dangerous he always is.
A good enough Billy can, in the vast majority of cases, always chainsaw a survivor whose tail they're hugging. The condition here isn't anything other than the killer's own accuracy. No gas, no bottles, no axes, no having it cancelled from being stared at for a second. Nobody has an issue with this, meaning that a killer who moves at the same speed as every other killer is permitted to always have threat of an instadown without any arbitrary conditions.
The only point I'm trying to make is that if Hillbilly is truly a balance target like we all claim, then the majority of other killers should be buffed to an appreciable threat like he is, or that he should be brought in line with the rest so we have a more accurate sense of killer power without him being some sort of grandfathered clause.
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I personally don't think Billy is well balanced either.
To me the ideal balanced killer is Spirit.
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Billy is balanced against SWF..against solo survs however...
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Hillbilly is the most balanced killer in the game. Probably since release, because I can't remember a time frame when Billy was to strong or garbage.
Billy has plenty of counters, has some high skills, mindgames and is loopable.
IMO anyone who sees Billy as unbalanced has 0 clue about DbD and should stop talking about balancing in dbd.
Billy should be blueprint for all killers. He should be loopable, mindgames possibilities, some dangerous m2 attack and high mobility.
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While spirit is *cough* stronger *cough* than our Billy Boi,I can see where the devs are coming from in terms of balance.
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"I can see where the devs are coming from in terms of balance."
In what sense do you mean?
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The only issue with solo is to many potatoes are in high ranks + we are still waiting for specific solo buffs (for example basekit kindred, totem counter in the UI, chase information in the UI etc). This is absolutely necessary in order to balance DbD anyway.
I personally don't have issues against Billy in a 1v1. I can loop him for very long. It's my potatoe mates who F the match up
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"then the majority of other killers should be buffed"
Yep.
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That's exactly my point, if someone with the ability to zoom across the map at 230% speed and take down a survivor instantly is considered balanced and the standard, then there's an absolute ton we can do with everyone else to get them on that same level, some more than others clearly.
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A lot of people here agree that Behavior should reach to make most killers as good as Hillbilly, instead of nerfing Hillbilly (and Spirit, Nurse, Huntress etc) down to the same level as the rest.
True fun comes when you're dodging chainsaws, outsmarting Nurses, mind-gaming a Spirit, making a Huntress waste all her hatchets trying to hit you.. All these killers are DANGEROUS so WINNING against them makes you feel great. Winning against a Plague by gen-rushing because there's no reason to heal.. yeah, fun. I guess..
Behavior used to not be so scared of making good killers. It feels like the turn happened after Doctor. Every killer just got worse and worse.
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The part about true fun is true .
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I think billy is balanced, but only after dedicated servers come out as that small buff to survivors (from knowing if they will get hit) is enough to make an even playing field
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his old flick made him a problem but apart from that, he has never been bad.
@se05239 I think they stopped after Legion. Since Hag was buffed to third best, and Spirit was buffed to 2nd best. Legion was when they stopped making good, solid killers. Billy is fourth and I like how they acknowledge he's good, but not too strong.
You're right about the dangerous thing, they're more satisfying to defeat.
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If spirit isn't the most balanced killer, then who it is? Im asking all the people who gave downvotes on this comment above.
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@Blueberry agreed, she's strong with her base, but if you mess up once, you could lose. That's balance. It means she takes a lot of skill and precision to play.
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I figured I'd get massively downvoted.
The downvotes are probably less to do with the Spirit comment and more because they all think Billy is super balanced and doesn't need any changes.
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Yeah I agree. She has strong counter play and a high skill cap.
Whereas Billy has a much lower skill cap with not as much counter play besides just dropping the pallets early. Caught out too far from a pallet? You're boned. Spirit isn't balanced around a poorly balanced mechanic like pallets.
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@Blueberry Billy is obnoxious, and honestly not that strong. If you're against good survivors, they'll catch onto your tricks, counter your curves, call your bluff and bully you. Killers should be balanced around Hag/Spirit level. Billy is a noobstomper. He's only really fast.
He can instadown, but only in dead zones. He's not balanced like Spirit, your points prove that.
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I appreciate what you're saying but I don't entirely agree. Zubat may be a poor example due to his unusual talent, but the opportunities in which he can saw are pretty frequent. I see him punishing everything from poorly timed vaults to sloppily executed loops at rank 1.
The greater point though is that if we agree that Billy is powerful but not overbearing and also agree that most other killers are -weaker- than him, then it means that we should probably start pushing the most disappointing killers toward a stronger and more threatening direction.
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@Tower_XVI I agree, Billy is good. And Zubat is good. But an equally good survivor will not die to him. Billy needs to face worse survivors, even if it's just slightly worse, he'll get them. But equal or higher survivors stomp him.
He's still good because of his speed though, and viable. And his instadown can punish dead zones, so he's still top tie`r.
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The Hillbilly is a killer that's easy to pick up yet difficult to master. He can perform in most areas of the game yet has a counter to prevent him operating to his fullest. I see why he's their target.
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Any killer is made to appear weaker against team of highly skilled survivors. Once you get to that situation Nurse is the only killer that maintains a sense of strength. I tend to think it is best to not take survivor skill into account when talking about bringing killers up in power. As the power role, killers in theory should have the ability to apply more pressure that the team or herd role. When you look at the game and see where killers are right now a lot of balancing around what survivors can theoretically handle is happening.
We've gotten a lot of functional powers that aren't actually particularly good at doing their job and require survivors to do something to see its full potential. That has always seemed strange to me as a lot of the game is controlled through the ability to put pressure on the game. Most killers can't adequately do that and the ones that can are eventually going to be scaled back. In a lot of instances the thought process appears to be "balance from the bottom up."
Start the killer off in a place where they may be extremely weak and then slowly try to tune the up. Every other game I've dealt with that goes in depth to the community about their mindset on balancing goes from the top down. You make a character that is potentially over tuned for play. Then you scale back the things that character doesn't need to remain viably strong. They do that regardless of whatever the opposition may be able to deal with and then dial the character back until they reach a point where players feel sufficiently strong and opposition have a consistently manageable play experience against them.
In another perspective, say you make a tabletop rpg character. If you're character starts off fairly strong eventually the game scales the game just enough so that your character is challenged just enough to show that you're not going to be able to completely outclass the game. If you roll up a underpowered character it can take forever to grow into the power scale of the game. You just have a harder time gaining power when you start without a good power base to work off of.
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If I may offer my opinion..
I remember in Multiple Streams that one of the devs goals is to encourage more interaction between both roles (Killers and Survivors).
I think with the newer killers, they're applying that philosophy.
I recall in the Devs' Anniversary stream they mentioned in working to improve the Emblem system, there's going to be a mechanic that rewards chaotic matches. Meaning, the more that is going on, the more chaos there is, the killer will be rewarded.
Back to the subject of this philosophy being applied to the killer. I feel this is a step in the right direction, as the killers should be strong. But also, to be stronger involves some involvement from the other role. It also adds some tension as maybe your decisions as a Survivor will either help or weaken the killer.
I can see they value interaction between both roles, rather than a straight face roll. Because it's truly a multiplayer experience.
@Peanits is this something you think about when designing a killer?
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To those who are saying Billy is balanced, have you ever seen a good survivor squad loop a Billy to oblivion?
He also sucks. Yet he's the definitive second best killer. Should be proof enough that the game is in a horrible state of balance.
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I've been looped to hell as Billy by SWF trolls
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Billy, Nurse and Trapper are best designed killers so far. If you underestimate them you can die at any time but they require skill and game knowedgle. Just as you should to a 'killer'.
Problem is: Devs are willingly designing new underpowered killers. It is not achievement at all to escape killer of your skill level. But when you face really good killer that knows what he is doing and who seen it all already - man, survivor gameplay is exciting af!
Looking at you TheEntityLeftHand Senpai.
Edit: Myers is well designed too!
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hysterical
addonless billy is the most balanced thing in the game. great at punishing mistakes but becomes harder against good teams. good billy players are almost a different breed from your average m1 billy
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Over 2k hours playing both killer and survivor.
Billy is the most balanced killer in the game.
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@ReikoMori Ok I understand, was wrong of me to bring that up then, it works against Hag too I guess and she's better than Billy.
One thing I'd like to point out, Spirit can also stomp good survivors. She's at a Nurse level right now :P
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If I had to "balance" I would only remove insta saw addons, along with nurse's extra blinks. Knowing the time window of the saw or the amount of blinks you face is more than enough balance to good survivors and mediocre alike.
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Please don't give them any ideas.
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Billy and nurse are unbalance
Billy its unbalance alot of things
1 its hes insta chainsaw you cannot react about that addon
2 using chainsaw when hes close to the survivor its just ez to get that hit but ppl will say ooh hes balance stop defend him for got sake
Nurse her problem that makes her way powerful its her addons omegablink or 3 blinks those are the strong addons and she can destroy the game for survivor and also the survivor cannot do anything against it
Most ppl defend this 2 killers of couse alot of ppl play those because are ez if you know how to play them devs should nerf thise 2 killers
Now i know that this post its about billy but im saying in general about those 2 killers its unfun when you playing over and over again the same killers those will get a nerf very soon dont know when and also they should buff other killers that arent seen to often in the game example LF, trapper, clown etc
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Honestly I don't think Billy is that balanced, he has everything a killer might want: high mobility/map presence, instadowns and antipallet mechanics all in one easy-to-use ability with basically no cooldown and very huge hitboxes , plus 115% base speed. He only lacks teleportation.
What I'm saying is not that he is OP, but that thinking of using him as a balance reference point for other killers is unrealistic.
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If the other killers were at Nurse's and HB's level, survivors wouldnt have the problem that theyre stronger than the other underpowered killers.
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