Insta heal rework idea
Purple = exhaustion recovers while running for the next 20 seconds
Red = exhaustion recovers instantly.
Both obviously one time use.
Rename them to adrenaline or doping maybe.
Comments
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Very acceptable
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than they should fix mori too like last phase only
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I agree, mori only as last hook, you can choose to either hook or mori
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Make Moris basekit. Survivors are killable on their last hook only if they are in the dying state and change Moris so you can kill Survivors on their last hook but if they are healthy or injured just like Tombstone.
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Can we first fix one issue after another before jumping on multiple things simultaneously?
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Yes please. Both need to go.
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To see the cool animation? And to potentially waste less time? XD
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for good killers it will not change anything but for baby killers well you dont have to bring mori :)
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First delete Moris. Theyre far worse for gameplay experience than insta-heals.
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I want to see the idea the devs proposed tested: When using an insta-heal, instead of immediately recovering a health state, a bar appears under your character icon similar to Deep Wound that will recover the health state once it is full.
What would be the point of spending blood points on them?
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Instaheals: "Okay, a minute of looping, time to ho-" instaheal "What the #########? I spent all that time chasing you and now have lost the game because everything I just did was undone in an instant, with no control from me, meaning I've lost all gen pressure and survivor pressure."
Moris: "I got hooked, then downed again. Killer is mori'ing me now because they want to end the game quickly, or need to snowball the game. They had to work to get me, through gyms and pallets (unless I was an idiot or they snuck up on me), and I either got killed by farming teammates or got another chance before I got moried."
Tell me, which is unfair? The instant heals which undoes a killer's work? Or the Mori which the killer has to meet a requirement for?
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A killer main perspective, watch my videos and see they are almost all killer related but moris are toxic bs
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First, if you get looped for a minute, then you didnt lose cause of instaheal, then you lose for being bad in first place. Second you want lose the whole game just because of one instaheal, thats not possible if youre halfway decent at playing killer.
Second, the Mori does all you work, not you yourself. You end someone elses game before he possibly did anything.
But hey, i dont mind you being killersided. Just think for yourself, why your comparison of totally different situations cant be logical.
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Insta heals when versing a full swf is one if not thee most unbalanced thing they can use in a match if they are good.
Mori is used to combat this so why not give them some counter play.
For Insta heals make them not work in the terror radious.
For Mori's they don't work if the survivor has been hooked within 60 seconds like the DS timer so it's not tunnel, down and mori unless you hook another survivor first then that timer is removed.
The survivor can also remove the mori until after the last hook by healing up, this is to encourage healing more and makes them maybe want to use that Insta heal as a combat to it.
This gives killer like plague a bit of a mori buff as survivors don't want to be broken so may cleanse more as they risk being mori'd.
It gives them have some counter play and makes them strong but not OP.
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Ur perspective is biased, honestly. If you can't see how moris are biased aswell like insta heals then there is no fundamental point to discuss.
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How about they would instead heal you periodically, so bassicaly regeneration. You pop purple instaheal and you gradually get 1 full health state. Maybe it would take 10 seconds? But if you get hit during that duration it will get canceled. And if you pop red one you will continue to heal till you are healthy. It would take 5 seconds per state. So if i insta heal somebody in dying state they will get up in 5 seconds and they will be healthy in another 5.
As for mori,....
Maybe make it so killer can only mori 2 survivors?
Thought?
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5 seconds.. Man that window is so low, doesn't feel like a nerf at all honestly. Drop pallet, pop the insta heal, loop one time in a jungle gym and done, you are healed.
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Adrenaline shot - you will recover from exhaustion in 15 seconds after taken.
You will hear an intense heartbeat and red stain for 1 minute due to the paranoia side effect.
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How abot for red 5 seconds form dying state but 15 seconds to healthy state?
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Adrenalin shot... Nice name
BUT
There is alredy something called like that in game and it CAUSES exhaustion.
How about they would completely rework them, and they would cause increased movement speed by percent for duraion of time.
Kinda like hope and adrenalin mixed together.
Maybe something like this? purple: gain speed boost of 5% for 1 minute and gain exhaustion for 30 seconds and red: gain speed boost of 10% for 30 seconds and gain exhaustion for 1 minute?
Or something like that.
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Maybe make instaheals only useful to the survivor carrying the kit, and make the ultra rare heal 1 state, but allows you to use it in the dying stat
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Jesus christ, all you baby survivors and killers need to leave the insta and mori alone. Games that a perfectly balanced are boring as #########, and you're going to make the game boring as ######### just to cope with you being bad at the game. It's OKAY to have rare, overpowered things in the game. Stop acting like it occurs EVERY GAME, because it doesn't. 99% of the time when someone instaheals, they go down again in 5 seconds, because it was used at the wrong time.
The mori is fine. It doesn't need to change. As are both iterations of the instaheal. Stop trying to nerf things you're too bad to adapt to. The baby players crying about these things are killers who don't know how to mind game and bodyblock, and survivors who can't last more than 10 seconds in a chase.
Please, go play something easier to play instead of coming here and trying to make this game boring.
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Clearly you doesn't get how this sort of thing works.
In a discussion of the balance of a mechanic, it doesn't matter how likely it is to exist in the first place, just it's impact when it does.
If a perk said that 1 in every 1000 games you instantly escape and the other 999 times you would just be down a perk then that perk would be completely busted and OP. Even though it won't actually make you win as many games as other perks, that doesn't matter because when it does help it completely overshadows the entire rest of the game.
The issue here is swing. If everyone always had an instant heal then we could just design around Survivors having a free extra hit at some point in the game. And if they never have an instant heal then we can balance around them never getting a free extra hit.
A rare overpowered mechanic is WORSE than a common one, because inconsistent mechanics are hard to balance around. That's why mori's are problematic, not because they are unfair but because they (effectively) randomly mean that some games the Killer just has 33% less objective to do than others. That's like if Survivors randomly would have to do only 4 or 3 gens instead of 5 one game in order to open the exit gates, that would be completely BS.
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Clearly you're relatively new to the game if you're complaining about insta's and mori's.
"If every player had an instaheal" - that's a false argument based on something that might happen say...3 or 4% of the time. It's EXTREMELY uncommon.
Thankfully, the devs likely won't listen to people like you. If they did, the game would be balls boring. You and the other baby survivors/killers need to adapt. I'm currently rank 1 killer, and insta's aren't even CLOSE to a huge problem that requires a discussion of balance. One out of every 30 games (and that's generous), I'll see an insta. You know what happens? It's used at the wrong time and I down that person again in 10 seconds flat.
Using hypothetical situations that will only happen at the most minute of times and are extremely rare, that doesn't help your argument. Again, get better.
Watch this:
Devs, I'm going to implore you - ignore these threads. These people don't know what they are talking about. Listen to your veteran players on both the survivor and killer side. VETERAN players with a brain will all tell you, yes, these things are OP. NO, they aren't an issue. We can talk about this again when it's an "every game" situation. Until then, just stop.
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No too op again, health shouldn't be gained with the insta heal
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It's an "insta heal"
HEAL being the key word. Please...please, just stop.
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Devs have stated in the past that they are looking into adjusting insta-heals.
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@AetherBytes. In low level insta heals do nothing, only give points for killers, and moris, well, easy 4k. As I said in other post, there're 2 games in dbd, high ranks and low ranks
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Insta Heals aren't even that common anyway. So I don't get why it needs a "rework".
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That’s the most retar.. nvm not even going to waste my time lmfao moris are stupid and are definitely the same if not worse than instaheals.
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I personally find it more boring to go against 4 men swf with 4 insta heals who all last second switched while I'm a basic, unprepared wraith without mori and strong addons.
Or me beeing a solo survivor without any items and strong addons against an omegablink Nurse or prayer Beads spirit with ebony mori.
Both are extreme and since no side knows what powerful stuff they are bringing noone can prepare. So one side will completely demolishing the other side. And THATS boring and unfun.
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They also stated that they are looking into red rank queue times.
2 years later
Insta heals and mori's are NOT a pressing issue. Period.
So your argument is to take two extremely rare things, a tryhard SWF, which is about 5-10% of all SWF's, and and even more rare thing, 4 instaheals in a game (literally, 1 out of every 50 games if that), and present that as a point? Complete fallacy.
That's like saying all killers run mori's, when in reality, mori's appear the most between ranks 15 and 20, because new killers are easily amused by these things.
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I have 50+ syringes just on my main survivor. Combined with all others, probably 100+ and the funny thing: I'm not even a survivor main, I play both sides quite equally and I'm not a collector of items and addons which means I'm using it very often here and there. They are very common.
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Do you have even any clue about balancing a game? By your logic an item which pops all 5 gens after 10 seconds in the game by just pressing one button is absolutely fine as long as it's extremely rare?
Or an offering which puts 3/4 survivors on the hook in the start of the match with only 10% hook bar is fine as long as it's super extremely rare?
You don't balance around rarity. You balance around the existence by itself. That's how balancing works, that's how a healthy game works. Guess why toxicity in this game is so high. No balance. To many extreme scenarios. And toxic people abuse it.
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I mean, by that logic, I could point to the fact that they changed Mettle of Man relatively quickly. All I'm saying is that this is something they have mentioned not THAT long ago and even stated a potential idea they were tossing around similar to how they initially mentioned their idea for how to nerf MoM.
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Purple is too weak.
I think Purple should work like reverse borrowed time. After using it, it passively recovers the person until one health state is recovered or the person is hit, with an optional indicator visible to the killer.
Red is may be too weak to justify killing the medkit too.
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How about shield potions? (Joke btw)
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@Paladin_Goo "if every player had an instant heal" isn't a false argument because that's not how truth values work. The condition is not met but the claim is still valid. The only way for a statement like that to be false is for every player to have an instant heal yet the proposed outcome (which is instant heals being easier to balance compared to now) not coming true.
And let me remind you that what I said was that every player having an instant heal is PREFERABLE to having like 4% of players having an instant heal. You don't want a small percentage of games to be tilted in favor of one side due to something that happens before the game even starts.
Other examples of this are:
Gate spawns, Perks that hard counter specific Killers, Addons that hardcounter specific perks (exhaustion addons), SWF as a whole, certain tile configurations (this one should be mitigated by the map reworks), all pink killer addons and hex spawn locations
The point here isn't that these things are OP, UP or whatever. But that they are swingy, which means that an Exhaustion addon for a Killer doesn't have a consistent amount of strength which can be then balanced around.
Some cases of these are worse than others, for example exhaustion addons in particular aren't that big of a deal since the perks they effect are strong and if the player wasn't running an exhaustion perk in the first place then there still is some small benefit to having used it anyways (information).
Things like hex spawn locations and SWF by comparison are much more problematic. Hex ruin for example is far stronger if it is found 5 minutes into the game compared to if it is found 20 seconds into the game.
Of course for hex totems there are a lot of things that reduce it's swing too. Such as:
- It's meta status making players likely to already check spots where totems spawn. Thus reducing the variance in the time to find it
- Line of sight checks preventing it from sometimes starting out right next to a Survivor increasing the minimum up time
- Perks such as Small game and Detectives Hunch making it even more consistent to find totems.
- The Killer seeing it's aura and thus likely setting traps and patrolling the totem thus making the interactions with the totem less random and more informed.
Things like that is how you make a swingy mechanic work, you try and have as many mechanics as you possibly can in order to make the difference between the best case scenario and worst case scenario as small as you can without ruining the point of what you were supposed to accomplish in the first place.
For example in the case of instant heals. Having it be a heal over time (that lets you keep doing stuff while it's going) would reduce the swing drastically. Since right now you both save the healing time AND extend chases to potentially silly lengths, but with this change it would't be able to stall chases on it's own since the Killer can just down you anyways. Thus closing the distance between the worst case scenario (not having a medkit) and the best case scenario (instant heal medkit).
It's not that the best case scenario can't be balanced. But that both scenario's can't be balanced simultaneously. Thus having it matter as little as possible is a good thing, and if it's really so rare then a change done to fix it won't be problematic either.
Same for Red Mori's, except those are worse because Mori's have a greater impact on the game per use AND don't take a slot. I would want them to be after the 2nd hook so it's benefits become somewhat useful instead of gamechanging.
You don't want things that are sometimes gamechanging, you want things that are ALWAYS gamechanging. All or nothing.
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It absolutely is a false argument. You're arguing hypotheticals, which isn't an argument at all. No TL;DR wall of text will change that. You're wrong, plain and simple.
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"killer has to work for it" Killers get on survivor down and soft camps survivors unhook. Killer goes back to tunnel and mori if they weren't hard camping
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Which hypothetical? Instant heals are real, teams that use 4 of them are real too (although they are rare), Killers using Ebony Mori's are real and so are both the Killer's who use them and the balance problems connected to them.
Either way though. Hypothetical arguments are valid as anyone who has taken a course in logic can tell you.
Source: https://www3.canyons.edu/faculty/jonesa/Hypothetical%20Arguments.htm
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@NuclearBurrito Just ignore Paladin, he's just here to argue. I've seen him in other threads arguing for the sake of it, and he doesn't listen to other people.
Anyway, No-one here's taking in the fact that a 2 man SWF can bully the killer if they're good at looping ,at the other one uses a syringe. Boom, 4 health state chase. At least MoM can't make that 5.
And yes, This example is from personal exprience.
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@AetherBytes actually it's worse. There is a trick where if you use an insta-heal at the same time as getting hit you will be set to full health AFTER the Killer hits you. Meaning you don't even need a SWF team in order to do it.
It has tight timing through so it's not too bad if it happens and resolves a bit like using DH. The real issue is when you combine it with MoM when the Killer is carrying a Survivor, Since unlike normal you can tell when you need to use the kit in order to do it more consistent, and then MoM will trigger too since it's protection hits.
Now I'm just picturing a bunch of SWF with Instaheals creating the dreaded 12 hit chase
(2 hits base + 8 from 4 instaheals + MoM + Adrenaline)
It wouldn't actually be practical, but still.
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The argument of "4 instaheals in a match" is a hypothetical argument. Even worse cause the rarity of it is ridiculous.
That tends to be what you say when you don't actually have a counter argument. Pipe down, sonny.
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@Paladin_Goo they exist. Rare things are still real, so it's not just a hypothetical.
And again even if it was, Hypothetical arguments are valid so long as they are used properly. I have formal training in logic (for a computer science major) so I know what I'm talking about. There are mathematical proofs behind their use and I even linked you a detailed explanation.
And yes @AetherBytes, the other person not having a good track record is no excuse not to reply (and using it to try to refute their arguments is ad-hominem fallacy)! Plus this fun for me too <3
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Btw. The original hypothetical of "if everyone had an instantheal" I don't mean:
"If there is a team of 4 survivors who all are running instantheals one game"
that happens right now and is kinda the whole problem (or rather that instant heals are so strong in the first place, not just 4 man teams)
The hypothetical was if instantheals were basekit, then it would't be as much of an issue since it would be very simple to just adjust killer numbers to match.
However since that isn't actually the case we don't have that guarantee.
Here let me lay out the argument in proper form:
Premise 1: All other things being equal balanced games are better than unbalanced games
Premise 2: If a game contains swing then it will be less balanced
Conclusion 1: Eliminating or Mitigating swing whenever possible is good (P1 + P2)
Premise 3: Instant heals and Ebony Moris are strong examples of swing (due to not being in every game and increasing the power of the survivor or killer who uses it)
Conclusion 2: Mitigating the swing caused by Instant heals and Ebony Moris is good (C1+P3)
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Rare things are still real, yes - but you're using them as a basis for your narrative, and because of their extreme rarity, your basis is as thin as a sheet of paper. That's like blaming an entire room of people for the actions of one. It's ridiculous and a broken argument. A total logical fallacy. Just stop. You are wrong, your argument is paper thin. You just need to get better at the game, learn to deal with it, and stop trying to turn the game into a boring snoozefest. Thank GOD you're not a developer. You can NOT overbalance a game to boredom. It would kill it. A few rare OP things in a game is FINE.
"I have formal training in logic". Yes, good thing you told us that. Saying that over the internet to conveniently attempt to strengthendefinitely boosts your credibility /sarcasm
All it really boosts is your ego.
Even if you did - that doesn't magically make you knowledgeable on video game design, and why people play them. If YOU designed DBD, we'd all be playing Hide or Die right now.
Is this the part where I conveniently tell you I have formal training in game design? Nah, too cliche. I don't. Everyone does that here in Montreal. I'm just a graphic designer.
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Instaheals suck.
Adrenaline is the survivor equivalent of NOED. They both suck.
Keys are the survivor equivalent of a mori. They both suck.
All five of these things are broken and unfun.
Instaheals should take 10 seconds to activate, and give a visual queue to the killer.
Adrenaline should do the same thing.
Once all five gens are done, NOED should be notified to all survivors, if it activates. Not the first time someone gets hit.
Keys should ONLY be usable once you are the LAST survivor.
Moris should only be usable once exit gates are powered, and if a survivor is on their last hook.
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@Paladin_Goo actually in your analogy this is me looking at the one guy in that room of people and saying "get out". I'm not claiming that this happens every game and if it was that would be preferable to what we have now.
So the only logical fallacy being committed here is the strawman fallacy.
The bottom line is that both Instant heals and Ebony moris are bad for the game when they appear.
When they don't appear it doesn't matter, they didn't appear so who cares. That doesn't matter since we aren't trying to "fix" the games where Instant heals don't exist. So there is no blaming everyone for an uncommon occurrence.
This is blaming an uncommon occurrence for being the cause of an uncommon problem with a solution that won't come up very often anyways outside of the specific situation where the problem exists in the first place.
The games where instant heals and Mori's are not being used won't be effected by a rebalance to instant heals and Moris.
Like let's talk specifics:
Is there anything wrong with the specific change of making Instant heals a heal over time (which goes on it's own after the initial activation) and making Mori's require 2 hooks?
Yes it makes both the Mori and Instant heal less enticing but it also puts them in line with other offerings and high tier survivor addons and removes the feeling of BS when they are used against you. Like look at other offerings:
- Bloodpoint offerings that have 0 impact on balance
- Map offerings that just reduce randomness
- Luck offerings that literally only effect jumping off the hook and only slightly
- Mist offerings which effect the fog in barely noticable ways
- Chest offerings which are the most impactful but ultimately don't usually amount to much anyways
- Hook offerings which only matter if there is a sabo squad and maybe make them have to sabo 1 less hook in order to create a safe zone
Meanwhile Mori's completely change the flow of the game in the Killer's favor, almost like a 5th perk which is also way more powerful than any perk or addon.
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