Everyone can do generators. Not everyone can loop. The easiest way for the killer to win a game is for them to kill off the weakest link as fast as possible. This is because survivors lose 1/3 - 2/3 of their gen progress once that first survivor is dead (assuming the killer is always keeping at least one survivor busy). So tunneling is heavily encouraged and sometimes even flat out required. The only killers who can get away with not tunneling the vast majority of the time are Nurse and Spirit; because they can make the vast majority of pallets unsafe.
Survivors don't like this; but killers don't have another objective other than to slow the game down as fast as possible and get as many kills as they can.
On the survivor side of things, survivors don't have an objective other than doing generators to escape. And survivors don't have any real form of defense against a good killer other than looping and some mind games. So gen rushing and looping are as heavily encouraged by the game design as tunneling is. Survivors also don't have another objective that they can put a lot of time towards.
The best current solution to tunneling is for maps to be reworked so that they are much less safe for good survivors.
The best current solution to gen rush and looping is for killers to be able to apply more pressure and for looping to be much less safe (see best solution for tunneling).
A mandatory secondary objective is a terrible solution just as much as longer gen timers is; because it would screw over new players too much.
Nerfing tunneling without doing anything else is also a terrible solution just because killers don't have another objective.
I am currently hoping that their upcoming map design philosophy changes will fix some of these issues.
Looping needs to go, it is the source of the unbalance in thr game.
When 1 person in the number role can actively verse the power role for minutes the game is already over.
It is a Necessity to remove looping and give survivors safe ways to defend themselves without having chases to last more than a minute, anything more than that will lead to gen rush and further unbalance.
Once looping is addressed we need to address some killers as they may be too strong for a nerfed looping meta.
Unfortunately they are redesigning two maps per year, which is nothing.
Most maps are survivor sided with some maps horribly killer sided
Survivors need ways to escape killers obviously but chases must be shorter and not running in circles.
Your goal should be to run away not to waste the killer limited time for minutes.
It is the nature of asymmetric, once the number role can take plenty of time of the power role the game is unbalanced.
ALL the asymmetric horror games have the same issue, in f13 a good counselor could waste Jason's time most of the match and jason has insta kills!
Looping has no place in a balanced game, and yes all maps need to be redisegned for the game to work properly.
I don't think this will happen anyway, bhvr is simply too afraid to alienate the survivor player base.
It was a mistake to train survivors in looping being a thing
Assuming survivors are decent, 'tunneling' will net you 1 kill (maybe) and the game will be done in 5 minutes.
This is why killers with movement abilities are strong and why you feel that they don't 'need' tunneling.
The thing is most of playerbase of this game are casuals and really haven't got a clue on how to play optimally (even on high ranks) so of course tunneling would feel effective since it lets game finish much faster.
This is an easy very low skill game for casual play with matching playerbase if you are somewhat good you will win 90% of the time regardless of your playstyle.
Loops are everything survivors have to defend themselves against most killers.
The map reworks should reduce overly safe areas and increase mindgameable loops which is all we need.
@Redd the more I think about it, the more I reach the conclusion that the meta will always be the same killers with no chance of true balance until we introduce universal map pressure mechanics. Map pressure and ending chases quickly are vital for all killers to succeed. Just look at the top tiers, all 5 most powerful killers in the game have both of these to some extent (and that's why Huntress gets worse and worse with every new map, she loses map pressure with every map released). The map reworks might give weaker killers the power to end chases faster if they play well, but if they can't apply pressure, they will always lose to good, coordinated survivors.
as a survivor looping around windows (not necessary around a pallet area) and the chase are the most fun. shortening them would just be another nerf to fun. As i play killer too from time to time i understand it would be more fun as killer to have shorter chases and have more time to do map control. So how do you balance this? tough decisions
But you just cannot have lots of time of "fun" in a 4 vs 1 game.
While you are looping your team is doing objectives which means that the killer cannot win.
Chases cannot take more than a minute for the killer to have a chance, if they do then killers should be able to kill you right away, like the old mori.
That would balance the power of looping, but I don't think killing people right away is something desirable.
It's a two roles game, both roles fum must be taken into account.
Running a killer in circles thanks to smaller hit boxes isn't fun for the killer when all the other gens are popping.
It would be fun in a 1 vs 1 without others pushing objectives
As long as all loops are mindgameable, we shouldn't have problem with chases taking too long, unless the killer repeatedly gets outplayed, which means the survivors probably deserve to win.
Just clarifying that currently it isn't the case. Too many pallets are safe. If the map rework legit changes that, then chases will depend more on skill and we'll be fine.
Looping is an unitended gameplay mechanic, just like bunny hopping in the Source Engine, but much much stronger.
For many players looping actually is the game right now and a majority of the players will leave if their power role is nerfed to actually play not safe and feel scared.
The players want to feel powerful which DbD makes them feel this way.
If the power is taken away, players will leave.
Making more pallets unsafe is definitely a way to go.
Also that you can't always reach new pallets after throwing one down.
There is another problem and that is most players are casual. If you make the game harder for surivvors to "survive" then i see a lot of players leaving. Let's face it most survivors are potatoe and if they are killed within a second (so to speak) i don't see a lot of reasons why they should keep playing.
I'm just throwing in 2 additional things you haven't mentioned:
I agree with you here
But you see you have three lives in dbd, I would be OK to give like a 60 seconds immunity after being unhooked so the killer MUST change the target.
So you go down fast, then the next person is chased and then the next one until everyone has fun and they have been protagonist of some killer interactions.
If chases are faster and all survivors play the chase game everybody will have a similar level of fun while either winning or losing as a team, not a single individual.
Currently due to the "exploit" of different hit boxes that we call looping it is possible for a single survivor to waste all the killer's time till the gens are all popped. This is absolutely wrong and it is fun inly for one person that survivor who is a god in chases.
Unfunny for the killer, also unfunny for the other survivors just holding m1.
My favourite matches as a survivor had all the elements of dbd: some gens, some chases, some saves, some hiding.
Currently this isn't possible due to looping being to strong in many tiles, and even in good tiles a survivor can throw the pallet down quickly and proceed to the next, by the time the killer had caught up gens will pop left and right.
Looping needs to go to have a healthier game.
And yes, probably people will leave the game.
I left f13 once Jason was made unstoppable during rage, and that made me realise how much of a bully I was in thst game
I’m afraid that when and if looping becomes nerfed then a ton of survivors will stop playing. Their objective is to last as long as possible and if that becomes shorter because the game takes it away, then it won’t be as fun anymore. I’m sure the devs recognize this and I don’t blame them for not hastily redesigning maps. We all know streamers who know where every pallet is and all the safe loops, and if it becomes impossible to have long chases because of game design, they may stop playing.
Killer would be fun as all hell without looping, but you need survivors to have a good time too.
Looping doesn’t need to go. It just needs to be unsafe. If every single pallet was an unsafe pallet except the shack pallet; then good killers would be able to get more hits and spend less time breaking pallets.
The problem with cow tree for example is that it can take 40+ seconds to make them drop the pallet and in all that time you will not be able to mind game a hit.
Honestly, I would add the requirement of two survivors on a generator in order for it to gain progression. This would buff prove thyself (an already great perk) and make it so that only one gen could be done at a time while in chase.
I think Gf being able to hide the red stain is a step towards the right direction, I cannot understand why a killer should have the stain, it's so idiotic
I play as killer and survivor ,whenever i find someone looping me a little too much i switch target im not wasting my time on 1 guy theres 3 others, but tbh the shorter the game as killer the more bored i am it genuinly feels so easy as killer its boring ,i am more entertained and impressed if someone manages to hit me with a pallet then flash blind me generally i dont find looping a problem just keep going in 1 direction round the loop all killers (bar the nurse) are faster than survivors base speed killers also get even faster with bloodlust,and tunneling is just a bit stupid tbh if someone gets a survivor off the hook in front of me i think how dare u try and farm them ure dead now,never camp hooks ,i let them take them off as it wastes 2 survivors time and u also know ure only 2 more hooks from ending tht survivor totally ,lock down 3 gen and theyre not winning unless u stark slackin .when i play as survivor my main goal is acctually to anger the killers make them really hate me this way my nooby ass team mates dont get scared an urban evasion all game,the meta as survivor right now to me seems to be wait till everyones dead an get hatch and farm everyhook you can ,its toxic af ,at least as killer i dont have to rely on other people ,because u r relying on others to help(wich they dont) everyone needs self care ,healing team mates needs a bloodpoint boost ,i dont feel like the game need that big a mechanical change but more of a point system rework brave risky altruistic behaviors need to be more heavily rewarded and selfish toxic behaviors acctually punished, this goes the same for killer ,tunneling or camping people should litterally give u tunnel vision and just slowly black out edges of view till u only have a circle of sight left ,and doing risky killer actions like attacking the savior of the hooked survivor rather than goin for the "ez" kills your not dominating the map if your on one survivor till hes dead gib them all lest them know u want them all not just one seen alot of billys leatherfaces just hokking an revving saw then not moving unless the survivors are swf its just dumb and if they are swf u make the game kinda ######### for them ,noone wants to just abandon a friend on the hook,but like i say we need bloodpoint insentives and in game punishments ,survivors who crouch for themajority of the game and dont do gens should become exposed ,if your gonna be the weak link and not help survivors just farm dull totems an hooked survivors i dont want you in my team,bottom line i see is killers getting angry cant manage map and survivors that are scared cant do #########, this is just an opinion of a casual player but really with a bit of using your brain this game aint that bad on either side ,unless theres a claudette with empathy ######### everyone over then its gg for killer
I'm an average killer at best and when I come across a good looper that's wasting my time I leave them alone and go for all the other survivors instead. Why do most people think unless they kill all 4 survivors they have had a bad game or unless they escape they have had a bad game?? Isn't the main purpose to pip??
@ninjaturbokill I agree loool
Bc the stain is there so the Survivior can stand a chance against the killer in the chase
ez fix is to make the game centered around stealth , just make the game darker and stop puttin so many "here i am" cosmetics also reduce or get rid of killers aura reading
increasing the width hit radius for killer since playing survivor it looks wide and playing killer it just looks like a small swing. Also why does everyone keep complaining about camping, tunneling, slugging. It's all part of a killers strategy to down and kill survivors.
People complain because it’s not fun to get camped, tunneled, or slugged.
Complaining is not a problem as long as you ask the devs to properly fix things. The main problem right now is some people want killer nerfs without equally large killer buffs. This would be very bad.
Because a 2k is normally a safety.
If someone is looping you, you have too decide "is the kill worth it?" because if it isn't, leave them and pressure a gen. You don't have too tunnel down one person for 5 gens.
I like this idea actually, but I feel it could also loose the essence of what the game is, since then people will have too be stealth, and if their fighting a doctor, it would prob be a free win. But I would support this 100%.
I understand your suggestion and tbh I mainly play spirit and nurse so looping annoys me only when I play legion.
What you say is beyond my point though, you can get around the looping issue with tactics or by choosing a different killer that's true but it doesn't change the fact that in a 4 vs 1 game the 4 group should be able to win ONLY with teamwork.
Looping removes that element, and it is clearly an unplanned mechanic of the game.
1 vs 1 in an asymmetric game must ALWAYS go to the power role but this doesn't happen in dbd in many scenarios, too many areas of the various map which are extremely strong and you cannot do much about it with the weaker killers
The game wasn't designed with looping in mind, it is obvious but survivors learnt that they could use their smaller hitboxes to loop the killer to oblivion.
And this is borderline exploit because the smaller hitboxes grant the possibility of much shorter routes around objects reducing the speed advantage of the killer.
So the game will function in a better way when a single survivor, even if adept at the game, will not be able to verse the killer in 1 vs 1 but will need to rely on the team to win.
Once this is achieved killers will need to be balanced around the new play style of shorter chases.
As for the doctor, if stealth becomes more prominent he will need to be nerfed and location revealing perks would also need to be nerfed.
I doubt this will happen though, it is a monumental work and entitled survivors would lobby for this to be stopped, exactly like I tried to do in f13.
@Redd if looping is nerfed also tunnelling should be nerfed obviously something like granting an immunity for 60 seconds for the unhooked survivor, something like "the Entity wants you to hurt them all, bring me another victim" or something along those lines
I play DbD because of the chases. For me, that's the fun part of the game, both as survivor and killer.
Shorter chases would lessen the fun for me. I don't want to play a game that has more focus on stealth (obviously, because otherwise I would play another game).
I also think that chases are the "magic ingredient" that make DbD so successful compared to other asymmetrical horror games that were targeting the same audience as DbD.
Since I don't want shorter chases, I'd like to have a 2nd objective. Also, a 2nd objective has another big advantage compared to shorter chases: It would give a new impulse to the game.
A lot of people have been playing this game for years and would like to have a new game mechanic. It would bring veterans back to the game or make them play more often than they currently are.
Unfortunately you cannot have balance with this long chases, one survivor cannot take so much of the killer time, 1/4 of a team cannot be equivalent to the 1 power role, so the chase fun of the survivor if too long like now simply eradicates the balance and the fun of the killer.
As a killer with this change you would have more chases on different survivors also considering that with the removal of looping you also need to remove tunnelling.
As a killer you would still get plenty of chases, as a survivor you'll get chased but you would have less power than now, and this is fair. You win by teamwork not individuality
A 2nd objective (while keeping chases the same length they currently are) is supposed to give killers that bit of additional time that they currently need.
The current state of DbD is like this: A good killer vs. a team of good survivors will lose, even if he tunnels. Chases just take so long compared to how fast gens are done.
A 2nd objective would make the game more balanced while we could keep nice chases.
That's my personal preference. I know that some people don't like long chases and want to shorten them. I can only say that I'm convinced that shortening chases is not a good idea as it would take away from DbD's uniqueness and bring it closer to other existing asymmetrical horror games.
@NoShinyPony yes, that's also an option that should work you are correct.
I don't particularly like long chases hence me playing nurse and spirit mainly but as long as 1/4 cannot take an amount of time from the power role enough for the power role to basically lose, I am OK with just some basic rebalance as well
