The real reason why looping, camping and tunnelling MUST be removed from the game
Introduction:
This is going to be a long post because I want to make all the arguments why for the health of the game looping, camping and tunnelling must go.
The first premise is that DBD is intended to be an asymmetric game, and the idea behind it is that you have two teams competing against each other on equal footing.
Team A is the numbers role, 4/4
Team B is the power role 1/1
For the game to be perfectly balanced 1/1 should exactly match 4/4.
Remember these numbers because they will be important in a few paragraphs.
Chapter 1 Looping:
Looping is the exploitation of a game mechanic, vaults and pallets, which was unintended by the Devs.
Vaults and pallets were put in the map to give survivors a chance to waste some of the killer’s time before being downed.
The idea was to buy some precious time for their team to complete their goals of doing generators.
And this worked really well until survivors realised that their camera and smaller hitboxes was granting them a great advantage in terms of optimal routes to follow and thus running in circles became a thing.
Looping HAD TO BE SLAIN right then and there and we would be in a much better place right now, but it wasn’t because survivors lobbied for it and it was included as a feature of the game.
BUT the devs knew it was a problem and in fact they designed killers and perks just with the purpose of stopping looping. A bandaid fix to try and change the meta.
Clown: designed to destroy looping and they introduced bamboozle to block infinites and reduce the amount of time you had to waste while running some tiles like shack
Spirit: PRECISELY designed to be an alternative to nurse to shut down looping. She also came with spirit fury that guess what? It is designed to reduce looping
Plague: originally designed to destroy looping with her corrupt purge, ability quickly denied by non cleansing survivors, BUT they tried
And LEGION: obviously designed to move like a survivor DENYING looping in an easier way than nurse and quickly lobbied by survivors to be nerfed into oblivion.
So after all of this, why is looping such a big deal?
It is a big deal because it gives an unfair advantage to team A 4/4 survivors.
It does accomplish so by letting a 1/4 of the team A verse in a 1 vs 1 the WHOLE team B, the killer, for a long time.
Imagine this in another videogame, let’s say COD. Let’s assume for a moment that in a 4 vs 4 game mode there was an ingame tactic which would allow a 1/4 of the team to be able to verse for minutes the 4/4 team.
Would you imagine the dung storm that it would happen?
There would be a hotfix in less than 48 hours and this tactic would be nerfed into the dust forever.
This is EXACTLY what is happening in DBD where sometimes 1/4 equals 1 for minutes and this is the source of all of the issues of this game.
Which brings me to chapter 2.
Chapter 2 Camping and tunnelling
All of this terrible unbalance forces killers to try and counter it with the only logical solution: quick elimination of an element of the 4/4 team to try and even the odds a bit more.
It is obviously easier to deal with a 3/4 team than it is to deal with a 4/4 team.
So camping, if the team is altruistic, is a great option (if no altruism is a silly losing tactic)
And tunnelling and slugging to avoid DS is A GREAT option because once a survivor is eliminated, the castle starts to crumble down much faster.
AND THIS IS ALSO UNBALANCED!
Because it denies team A the 4/4 one of their elements early in the game, ruining their chances of escape.
BUT tunnelling, slugging and sometimes camping are a NECESSITY for the killer if he wants to win for the reasons I described before.This is also the reason why I can’t get better than green ranks as a killer because I refuse to camp or tunnel, unless someone is toxic to me.
Regardless of my faults,why is this a problem?
Because it introduces elements that are NOT fun for the person on the receiving end.
It isn’t fun to pick Bubba because you liked the films and being looped for 3 minutes when 3 gens are popping, it is frustrating and stressful.
At the same time it is NOT FUN as a survivor to be camped, tunnelled and slugged. Because you are not playing the game, you are simply being destroyed.
At the same time it is NOT OK for the survivor team to lose an element early in the trial.
In fact 4/4 MUST EQUAL 1 and 3/4 is NOT 4/4. Which brings me to chapter 3.
Chapter 3 solutions
With this long explanation it comes as an obvious solution for looping to be removed and at the same time camping and tunnelling to be removed out of the game.
Which gives us 2 options:
1. The tiles redesigned to prevent looping
2. Or, more realistically and with less work, with a equalisation of hitboxes between killers and survivors and larger FOV for killers to reduce looping dramatically
At the same time though we need to remove camping and tunnelling from the game because those would be unfair to the survivors’side.
How do you do that?
Camping: the first hook CANNOT kill you, you simply awaken the entity but the entity cannot kill you on your first hook. If nobody saves the survivor withing 20 seconds of the hooking said survivors have an unlimited number of chances to unhook herself so they can go back to playing the game.It can take 15 tries but sooner or later you are free.
Tunnelling: you have a 60 seconds total immunity once you are unhooked, this immunity is ONLY there for you to flee the hook and receive healing so you can play once again at full strength.
ANY action different than healing yourself or being healed IMMEDIATELY ends the immunity and puts you into the dying state. No unhooks, heals, gens, chests or totems allowed. This is ONLY there for people to have some decent fun and not being destroyed in 60 seconds from the start.
This should be done on a vanilla DBD and before introducing add ons and perks we should test them properly to see where is the balance and REMOVE any nonsense, like 5 blinks or prayer’s bead.
Once all of this is done we will need to slowly adjust to reach an even better balance.
Comments
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I really don't see looping as being a big deal really. It's absolutely not an exploit, it's just maximizing what you can get out of your resources, and it's why the number of pallets and placement of windows has been changed a lot over the last year. It's the only real defense survivors have and a lot of killers have their own tools against it.
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Honestly you can start search other game to play becose i dont think somthing witch change fast.Look how long we must ask for hatch change and DS.
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This doesn't absolutely address my post, looping allows a 1/4 to equal the WHOLE opposing team, which is obviously unbalanced.
I suggest to real the whole post
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i feel like you're a troll
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Yes you are probably right, but my whole reason of this post is simply to prove once and for all how much inequality looping creates.
NOTHING will be done, but at least let's clarify this once and for all
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I feel that if this is your best debating argument you should't try to debate me.
Break down the hypothesis with real points, otherwise your argument is invalid
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If 1/4 equals the whole then the killer isn't good at their job. I'm not even gonna begin to pick apart the camping and tunneling arguments cause I could be here all day. Overall if you want the game changed that drastically you may as well go play something else entirely.
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Won't that change make you immune to death and capture if you managed to avoid the Killer the entire game?
Say you're hooked once the Exit Gates are powered.
No one rescues you cause you're being camped.
So 20 seconds pass and you can now unhook yourself.
You are now immune for 60 seconds and can run out the Exit Gate just fine.
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You haven't proven ANYTHING here, are you by any chance suggesting that on equal level of skill you can down survivors CONSISTENTLY in less than 60 seconds in good areas of the map without using nurse, billy or spirit?
If you can do so congrats you are better than Tru3, Marth and Tofu. I would like to see video evidence of your claims
If not 60 seconds for 1/4 of the team equals almost 3 gens done, continue the math and see why looping must go
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Why is avoiding the killer and doing gens bad though?
You did your job by using stealth, isn't that enough to leave the trial?
or this could be present only for the first 3 gens to avoid people playing 60 seconds because they had an unlucky spawn.
The idea can be tweaked, i simply think that it would benefit all the parts to have a game like this
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A good killer knows when to disengage from a losing chase, knows how to pressure gens and knows how to route survivors and force them to create deadzones. Yes there's still a gap between survivors and killers but that can be closed by addressing gen rush, not by reducing survivors ability to apply skill. The problem is genrush, not looping.
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This is really well put genuine feedback. I think you ideas aren't bad but I higly doubt that any of them will be implimented, ever. Even slight gameplay changes takes ages to deliver so these are quite unlikely to happen.
It would be interesting new experience if they did thou.
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"your argument is invalid"
Tbh, you invalidated your entire post when you called looping an exploit, and unintended.
I suggest you go rewatch the anniversary stream, specifically where map design was discussed. Note how the designer directly calls them loops, talks about their strength, and the adjustments they will receive. Again, it's the DESIGNER talking about LOOPS BY NAME and their role in the game. Please continue about how it's somehow "unintended", and an "exploit". 🙄
Loops are a core design of maps; they exist because you can only do so much without making the maps huge and unplayable, and to make the most efficient use of space.
If you want a game where people just run in a straight line until they fall over, this is not that game. Further, if you want people to actually read your massive wall of text, you probably shouldn't start with such a deep misunderstanding of the way the game works at its core.
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I didn't say avoiding the Killer and doing Generators is bad, don't assume please.
I say it's bad to make an entire section of the match trivialized.
Plus the game's goal is to not make Survivors feel safe until they escape, this would directly counter said idea.
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You make some interesting points but I wonder if your solutions would be difficult to implement. However, something does need to be done about the amount of camping and tunnelling before more players up and leave for good.
For me, I would like to see a much bigger penalty to killers who camp - perhaps hitting their blood points, since they don't seem bothered about emblem points, or perhaps the progress bar on the survivor doesn't go down when the killer is within a certain range - I'm meaning close/face camping, rather than proximity patrolling. I like your solution to tunnelling too - though would perhaps reduce the immunity time to 20 seconds but no penalty if they do anything other than heal (not everyone goes equipped with self care or med kits). For anyone who 4% off the hook, perhaps they should also get a short period of immunity so a camping killer cannot instantly down them again.
For looping, it might be fixed by setting a limit on how many pallets were available on a map, rather than removing looping altogether. Also, killers (myself included) need to learn when they are being led into long chases they can't win and break off, rather than being run all over the map.
These are just my musings - I don't expect others to agree with me. I play both sides and as a killer, I won't camp and will try not to tunnel, though sometimes it's unavoidable. As a survivor, I know the frustration of waiting to get into a match, only to be caught and killed within the first few minutes. After this happened several games in a row to me and my friends, I gave up playing for a month. I only came back a few weeks ago and I'm already considering getting rid for good because the player base has gotten so toxic.
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You probably missed the birth of looping, at the start of this game pallets were more abundant because they were seen by the devs as a single use, when lopping was discovered the number of pallets had to be reduced, so it's obviously unintended.
Nevertheless you are debating a word not the concepts, so unless you can prove otherwise I am afraid that's not enough
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This is exactly the nail in the coffin, if a whole team ( killer team B) needs to forfeit chasing 1/4 of team A because looping is too strong you are implicitly proving my point thst looping is too strong.
There are ways around it but it doesn't change that thus isn't balance
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And now the game has evolved and adapted, changes have been made and looping has been accepted as part of the core mechanics. Not an exploit, a currently intended mechanic.
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Beung accepted doesn't make it balanced which is the whole purpose of this post
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Well then I suppose it's a matter of opinion now then isn't it. I think looping is fine, as long as gen rush is addressed.
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These requests are literally impossible to fulfill unless a giant penalty is given to each one, and even then, people will still do it out of spite for a Survivor or Survivors.
This entire post is just a echo chamber of complaints for something you can't fix... Sorry mate.
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It isn't an opinion though since you admitted yourself that some chases are lost to begin with making the 1/4 element in some circumstances superior to the whole opposing team which is obviously unbalanced and the only reason of me writing this post
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I agree on this, nothing will be done but that doesn't make the argument invalid
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Killer isn't entitled to win every chase. If a survivors skill at temporarily evading the killer is suddenly not worth anything cause the killer, by default, will always catch them quickly, then suddenly you're going to see a lot less people wanting to play survivor because their skill doesn't matter. That's absolutely not a good direction to go if you want to improve game health.
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That's not what I said, you are NOT answering any of my points directly.
Survivors win the game by finishing their objectives which are gens, to do so they are allowed three lives since camping and tunnelling are also out.
Their power is in being 4 and being in different places while the killer is one.
So you go down fast but your team is doing the objective so by the time you reach your lady hook if your team played well you should be able to leave and win.
Once lopping, tunnelling and camping are gone you can look at the data and see what needs to be addressed and change it accordingly. Killers should NOT win more than 50% of the time, the game must balance the two teams properly
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Sure, take all skill away from chases.
That way survivor gameplay will be dropping pallets as soon as they pass through them while everyone else holds M1.
It'll surely not harm the game if the part most players like the most (chases) gets dumbed down to oblivion.
Jesus Christ these forums are a joke sometimes.
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How has this anything to do with my argument? Chases for the survivor sidecannot be the focal point of a game because the focal point is escaping.
You cannot balance for FUN, this is NOT A 1 vs 1. A Survivor can equal a killer only in a 1 vs 1, in a 4 vs 1 with looping the game isn't balanced as a single element can verse the ENTIRETY OF THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM.
How is this ok in any way shape or form?
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And your idea just removes skill from the survivors side in favor of.... what, a more consistent generator repair simulator? Hanging on a hook for some time before just spending a random amount of time trying to self unhook? I get what your point is but these ideas would make the game boring for both sides and take away all skill. (Not to mention it makes endgame essentially a free win for the survivors which is an awful idea)
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You're seriously suggesting it's more important that a party game full of RNG is "competitive" than fun. OK, that's what the devs should do if they want their game to die.
People come to DBD for the horror and stay for the action aspect. They already said they're reworking the maps to have more mindgameable loops. Other than that, if you kill looping and the mindgames that come with it, you kill the game. Period.
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What I am suggesting is that 3 mechanics of the game which are linked Camping, tunnelling and looping need to go because they are at the core of the unbalance in the game.
If for fun you mean being able to run the killer for 2 gens due to smaller hitboxes and bad map design that is also wrong.
When 1 person of a 1/4 of a team is looping a killer for 2 gens who is having fun?
The killer? nah
The 3/4 of the the team who is holding m1? nah
The looping survivor? YES! Because now you feel like the hero of the story who is slaying the monster. Good job you are preserving the fun of 1 person out of 5 by allowing looping.
Let's see camping now:
is the person camped having fun? nah
is the killer having fun? arguably yes but you are not very active, but let's say for the sake of argument a killer likes to camp so let's say yes
are the 3/4 having fun? no they are annoyed that their team mate is dying, as it natural for human beings. We are tribalistic, when a member of our tribe is in jeopardy we do not like that.
So once again 4/5 not having fun.
For the balance of the game it is WAY better if the whole 5 people partake in short chases, multiple times, some gens, some saves and some heals.
How can you defend a meta where one person runs around the killer for 2-3 gens and a killer who camps and tunnel?
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If the killer is letting themselves get looped for 2-3 full gens then they're truly not playing well. I can see you're too stubborn to listen to anyone elses criticism though, you believe you have all the answers and refuse to acknowledge the flaws others have pointed out so it's useless to argue with you. You've already decided you're right and everyone else is wrong. So I'm done arguing with you on this. Good luck in the future, but I'd recommend finding a different game to play.
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Well once again show me how this is consistently avoidable without using nurse, billy and spirit. I would like to learn, really.
I watch the most respected killers in the community, tofu, monto, ardetha, marth, tru3 and they all end being looped when playing a weak killer.
Sometimes they are even stomped by good teams so I don't really know how you could do it, but then again show me some consistent evidence of you doing it and I am willing to learn from you.
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Also ask any good killer player and they'll tell you the most fun part of the game is chasing and mindgaming tiles.
Not our fault you're bad and want survivors to run on a straight line so you can down them without earning it.
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Me being bad doesn't change any aspect of my argument, do you have anything to debate the various arguments being made or are you just trying to tilt me for the sake of it?
I have answered all of your concerns using example, the last one being the one related to who's having fun during looping, camping and tunnelling.
Do you have something we can debate on or are you out of arguments?
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Looping is not an exploit. Using collision to your advantage is a skill that is used by survivors AND killers. As a Bubba main I use my collision to block windows so I can instadown survivors instead of using the hammer. That's not an exploit. It's using your collision to your advantage. Wraith mains can relate.
An exploit is a beneficial in-game error such as wake up (fixed) or the crazy tinkerer 2 (fixed) exploit that was widely used last year. Remember the days of 0 terror radius Hillbillies?
A small question: Do you think a 0 hour rank 20 killer should be able catch a 1000 hour rank 1 survivor?
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I believe the real question should be, should a rank 20 killer face a 1000 hours survivor?
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^^ a good killer knows when to drop chase.
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Calling looping an exploit may be going overboard, but it is 100% an unintended game mechanic. Just like true infinites, beartrapping hooks, and unhook blocking facecamping. The difference is that the devs actually liked what looping did and accepted it as part of the game.
By the same degree, pre-rework Legion's chase breaking cheese mechanics also weren't an exploit. However, it did give a major unintended advantage to Legion players who used it at the cost of the viability of the enemy team exactly like pallet looping. But instead of making change after change in an attempt to make chase breaking Legion not completely broken like they did for pallet looping, they just reworked him. It would have been a hell of a lot simpler if they did the same thing for pallet looping. All they had to do was give the killer and survivor the same size hitboxes and that single change could have probly balanced things out better than all the massive overhaul of changes they've done instead.
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Which simply implies that under some circumstances a single survivor of a team of 4 is stronger than the entirety of the other team, great balance!
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That's very accurate :) thanks for the analogies!
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While I don't agree with your solutions entirely you are very correct in the fundamentals need work big time.
Not as a suggestion, but I did think 1 time what if once someone was hooked they got ripped into the ground or something by the Entity and popped up somewhere else on the map far away, and needed rescued but only survivors could see them or everyone could see them and decisions would have to be made about defending that person or going after someone else as killer. Killer main here but that could shake up mechanics a bit, but it doesn't address the Map design or the current loop meta that you're talking about.
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Yes we can certainly talk about solutions, and how to address the issues I flagged.
Tbh your idea is also pretty nice, if on the first hook the survivor is teleported where the killer cannot see the aura it would also be good to reduce/avoid camping.
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you watch tofu and think that looping is an exploit? ch...rist
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Not at all, it means that the survivor was better and was more efficient. Stop being too proud to drop chase.
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I can understand the frustration of losing due to 1 chase, but that's kinda part of the game. Everything you talk about doing ends up limiting the choices you're able to make in the game and ruin the chase mechanic. I'd rather lost for not abandoning a chase then face some bots that I'll know will go down. What you describe doesn't even sound like DBD.
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This has nothing to do with me but with the game balance.
Your example is the equivalent of saying that in a 4 vs 4 of equal skill in cod a person can verse a team of 4 due to a game mechanic. It is obviously unbalanced
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I guess conservation of resources is an exploit using your collision is something people do in this game all the time wraiths can block certain areas off to get a free hit when coming out of cloaked Billies can trap people in corners to get a free hit. Normal m1 killers can block someone in a room to get a free hit. I guess those were all exploits. I've said this to you before I'll say it again you want to play an entirely different game while the devs are already addressing issues by making more pallets that are mindgamable and hopefully addressing map design. The only real problem in the game right now is genrush gens get done entirely too fast.
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and it won't happen, my main purpose here is to unmask once and for all the great unbalance brought to the game by looping, camping and tunnelling.
I agree it is too late to do something about it, or at least something worth doing
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I’m saying that the survivor is better than you. Learn when to stop chasing someone.
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Gen rush and the length of a chase are a symptom of the same disease which is an unbalance of the parts.
As for collisions, there's a massive difference in hitboxes size which allows looping to be a very efficient strategy.
Resize hitboxes at the same size and see what happens to the game, why does Susie have a bigger hitbox than David King?
With that said, I am not a fan of blocking off areas of the game either, I am glad the basement collision was addressed because that was also borderline exploit
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