Secondary Survivor Objective: Bringing Fun Back! (UPDATED)
Prologue
As we all know, the game can flash before our eyes if your killer is not tremendously effective at applying pressure, or is not using perks to slow the game down. Therefore, we reach a point in the game where both sides aren't happy such as the killer not having enough time to get hooks, and the survivors are forced to hold M1 for God knows how long.
Base Changes
These changes are needed if we would want a secondary objective:
- Generators take 60 charges to fully repair, and toolboxes will get nerfed to match their respective charges for the new generator repair time.
- Generators will spawn further apart from each other.
- If the killer looks at a generator, they can see how long ago a survivor was last interacting with it.
Introducing Gasoline
Generators cannot be repaired if they have no gasoline, which means survivors are forced to explore the terrain for gas stations. There are 2 gas stations; each of them require the survivor to perform an 8 second animation of the survivor grabbing an empty gas can from a box, and filling it up with the pump. Survivors can see how much gasoline is in their gas can by a red gauge around it; this is exactly like the Spirit's power gauge meter. Each gas station has 3 gas cans, but after the gas can is poured into the generator, the survivor can reuse the gas can as many times as they want by refilling it at a gas station.
Survivors can carry both an item, and a gas can simultaneously, but if they are attacked, the survivor will spill 25% of their gasoline within the gas can; the penalty is doubled when the attack puts them into the dying state. If for some reason a gas can is dropped, dropped gas cans can be seen by all survivors within an unlimited aura-reading range. Pouring gasoline into a generator will be an 8 second animation, and if it's ever interrupted by the killer, the gas can is dropped with whatever gasoline is left in it. Each full gas can will give the generator 30 charges, which means you will be able to repair 30 charges before gas runs out. If there are multiple survivors repairing a generator, gas will be used up faster, but y'all will still repair 30 charges.
Credit to @C3Tooth for the animation
The killer can regress a generator, but only the amount of gas in them at a rate of 0.25c/s. Survivors cannot stop this regression, but it will automatically stop once the amount of gas reaches 0 charges.
Concerns
"Will this actually prolong the game since you buffed generator times for the survivors?"
Since generators require 60 charges to be repaired, and gas cans allow 30 charges in every full pour, you'll need 2 gas cans to fully repair a generator. That's basically around 32 seconds of animations, plus travel time between stations. If you get caught by the killer, and get put into the dying state, which drops your gas can, we are looking at more than 120 seconds to complete a generator - at a worse case scenario. Best case scenario, maybe 100 seconds per generator, if the killer doesn't interfere.
Epilogue
I made this idea because honestly, playing killer is too exhausting when I have to deal with the gen-blitzkrieg in almost every game, and survivor is just not fun anymore when you're holding M1 for majority of the game. This bothered me so much that I'll likely take a long break from the game, but I want to give the developers something to look at to improve their game before I do take a break. Of course if certain numbers are too high or too low, they can be later changed to fit the balance of the game. However, this should give you the general basis of what we desperately need in Dead by Daylight. I love the game, and will always support it, but I don't find it fun anymore, so it's time for me to move on. Perhaps, I'll comeback when I find it fun again, but that will depend on how things go for me.
Comments
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Since generators require 40 charges to be repaired, and gas cans allow 30 charges in every full pour, you'll need 1 and ⅓ of a gas can to fully repair a generator. That's basically around 32 seconds of animations, plus travel time between stations. If you get caught by the killer, and get put into the dying state, which drops your gas can, we are looking at more than 120 seconds to complete a generator - at a worse case scenario. Best case scenario, maybe 100 seconds per generator, if the killer doesn't interfere.I think a survivors carry 50 charge of gas, a gen requires 100 charge, which is 2 full gas carrying. So pretty much any single disrupt will requires 3 times travel of gas getting/filling.
About the Balance of this idea
In general:
If split 80s of fixing gen into: 40s of fixing gen and other action like 10s getting gas (x2 times), 10s filling gas (x2 times). There still requires 80s of M1, but they need more time to run around get/fill gas, which is more fun than M1 for 80s at a single gen. Gen degressing is only happened by survivors fail skill check, not Killers.
And I think gas leak caused by Killers kicking the gen should not be stopped by gen touching, but it will slowly drops and the gas leaking is only stopped if gas in the gen down to 0%. As said you should fix the gen until the gas depleted then fill more gas; rather than fill more gas while the gas is leaking.
(1*)For Survivors:
Its much less dangerous because you're now only sit at a gen for 40sec. The degressing is only gas removed rather than the whole gen progressing if you leave a gen too long. Killers now tend to hit multiple targets to let them drops the gas instead of focus on an injured survivor.
For Killers:
Since survivors are now carrying gas (which is visible for Killer to see), they can hit a survivors that carrying gas makes them lose all the gas they're carrying, which pretty much instantly delete their 10sec progressing of getting gas.
Perks that relate to degressing gen:
Ruin: Now cause gen consume 100% more gas (requires 4 full gas filling)
Overcharge: No change.
Pop goes weasel: instantly 50% gas leaked on kick.
Surveillance: Get sound noti when a survivors fill gas on a 0% gas of a gen. This will make it easier for Killer to find which gen is started to working on. And counter the gas leaking mechanic
(1*), force survivors to fill gas while it's still leaking.3 -
Ruin Talk
I'm going add this on to my thread because it's a problem for the game's health in my opinion. I dislike Ruin as both the killer and the survivor because of the following:
Killer
Whenever I equip Ruin and I look at it in my perk HUD, I can't stop thinking about how boring it is to keep using the same perk over and over again. I want to be able to use different perks like survivors can without being at a severe disadvantage, and I don't want to keep using a band-aid perk 24/7/365. I tried not using Ruin for more "fun" builds, but the fun only lasted for around 5 minutes because of the gen-blitzkrieg. It's ridiculous, honestly.
Survivor
Whenever I see Ruin, I immediately look for totems because inexperienced players are forced to hold M1 at a generator for 7 more seconds per every good skill check. Therefore, it's possible with Ruin that generator times to reach above 2, and that's not fun. Ruins makes M1 simulator even worse for survivors, it's crazy! However, I know that killers need it, but man does it suck to stare at a generator way longer than you need to. :(
Post edited by NMCKE on10 -
I think it says a lot that DBD's whole objective is kinda over way too fast and is outdated at this point. Its 2019 the devs should have more to do that means winning besides doing gens..........also I hate ruin because it doesn't mean anything at higher ranks where people 2 person gens all the time. Legion's perk Discordance has shown survivors rush mainly by putting two survivors per gen if they can and if you are a 110 killer like huntress by the time you get there its almost done even with ruin.
P.S. Spirit isn't hurt by it so much because she has mobility
Post edited by sorrowen on5 -
Ahh that explains all my brutal killer ratings despite getting downs and hooks
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I like it this a lot! They should add this to the game but when they nerf the broken addons of nurse and spirit :)
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While it puts a spin on it, its still just holding more M1.
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The idea of gas cans is floating around since years, but I like your implementation.
To be fair, most games consist on holding a button and occasionally press other buttons.
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Like @White_Owl said, every game is based around hitting buttons. However, sitting in one place, and holding the same button for 80 seconds is way worse in my honest opinion.
Post edited by NMCKE on8 -
would it really be fun after 1 hour of having it though?
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franklins
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Let's play Would You Rather Dead by Daylight Edition:
Would you rather...
Stay in on place for 80 seconds, then rinse and repeat that process until the Exit Gates are powered.
OR
Move around the map and interact with more things around you.
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Mcclean please don't omg
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How about the third option.
I'd rather be chased/hide from the killer.
Doing gens and any kind of potential second objective will always bore me I've come to realize. The fun aspect of dbd comes from the player vs player "combat" if you will, the battle between players on the ability to escape and kill. Of course I realise that there needs to be some form of survivor based objective in order to delay the game and escape, but that's not and never really will be the fun part about playing survivor I guess.
That's not to say I'm against a second objective. Hell I've even suggested them in the past. I just fail to see the potential fun in them anymore.
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Well, if you're always running around trying to find more gasoline, then you'll have a higher chance of running into the killer. At the very least you'll be forced to stealth around the killer because you're visiting more areas of the map.
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To be honest though we all know what happens when a survivor can't complete there objective. Think corrupt intervention, for the most part they'll just wait in the area until their gen is filled with gasoline by a fellow teammate, or if they do go to find it themselves, If the killers patrolling said area, they'll just leave until later. They won't hang around to be found or risk themselves to go get gasoline, hell you don't see survivors going for fresh gens with the killer around.
Like I said I'm not against a second objective, I just don't think searching for things to do gens is the right route anymore. If anything we need something to purposefully get the player to try and interact with the killer in order to escape, and gen speeds to be slightly increased perhaps. If it were any other game with a more "slow and deliberate" killer, I'd suggest having to sneak up on them and steal a key to unlock an exit gate, but we all know something like that wouldn't work in dbd. What we need is something that could force ourselves to be caught, currently gens are m1 machines that can lure a killer to our location. We need something to lure us to there location, or to something they can physically protect
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M1 for 80s at 1 place isnt fun. M1 for 80s but running around is, perhap not really fun, but at least better.
This may be isnt a great idea, but its the easiest way to change the game play.
What we need is something that could force ourselves to be caught, currently gens are m1 machines that can lure a killer to our location. We need something to lure us to there location, or to something they can physically protectTechnically...gen & hex are something they physically protect.0 -
I have some concerns:
1) It will be harder for the killer to defend gens. A lot would have to get changed around that.
2) How your suggestion currently works, it will be a big difference whether the survivors are SWF or communicating with each other. It will make the difference in power levels of solos and SWF even bigger.
That being said, when it comes to my fun as a survivor, I'd also prefer to run/sneak around the map and doing a 2nd objective instead of sitting 80 seconds at a gen.
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TBH I been saying how the hell this game been out for 3 years and only 1 mode that is extremely lazy and kind of feels like the DEVs sat back got paid from those who brought the game and supported them throughout the years and said " eh they got what we gave them" idl why the creators cant be more creative with modes of the game this game could become a titan If it had more....
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This seems like a good idea, It needs proper balance but its not bad in principle.
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1) It will be harder for the killer to defend gens. A lot would have to get changed around that.Yes, but a single gen kicking cause fast gas leaking, or a single slash cause gas drop makes survivor have to get gas again. Is the point.
2 survivors rush a gen? Currently 2 survivors can done a gen around 45sec. If the gen fixing time is downed to 40sec, it would be ~22sec if there are 2 survivors. But the point is both of them have to use 10sec to get gas (image a gas-station only let 1 survivor gets gas at a time), combine 10sec filling gas each (lets say only 1 survivor can fill gas at a time). Then you know the total time is greater than 45sec. This is not mention if there is a gen kick, it will requires the 3rd time gas filling.
2) How your suggestion currently works, it will be a big difference whether the survivors are SWF or communicating with each other. It will make the difference in power levels of solos and SWF even bigger.I agree with this.
- But seriously I prefer the core game play to be different, than 'new killer, new perks'. I can accept no new perks for a year in exchange of 2nd Objective. It doesnt have to be Get/Fill Gas. But any kind will be appreciated.
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As for me I am not bored with current gameplay, at least that’s not why I quit playing survivor. I don’t miss other game modes either. In fact I sometimes think that DbD is so addictive exactly because it is so simple.
While „holding R1 for 80 seconds“, I keep paying attention to my surroundings and try to keep track of what is happing where in the match, this usually leaves me no time with thinking about whether what I do is boring me.
I stopped having fun, but that was for a bunch of other reasons. Many of them could probably be „fixed“ easily by SWF but I don’t have any friends who play this game.
Anyway, not judging any 2nd objective idea or arguing against it, my issue with this post is entirely the „bringing back the fun“ part. It suggests it‘d make playing survivor enjoyable again, but a secondary objective wouldn’t solve a single problem I have with this game when it stopped being fun. That’s all I wanted to say about this.
(Yes it can be a bit boring if the killer can’t apply pressure effectively, but that‘s often a result of the poor rank system that puts lesser skilled killers against more experienced survivors.)
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I went in to this skeptical but honestly yeah I'm into it
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im a lazy ######### so i pick 80s in 1 place
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1.) I agree with your concern.
Perhaps, when the killer looks at a generator, it will tell the killer how long ago a survivor was interacting with it.
2.) That's something we cannot fix because of how asymmetrical games work. The minor roles (survivors) will always have an advantage if they can manage to work together as one unit.
However, we can get close to balancing SWF, but we will never perfectly balance SWF unless we have a completely new game mode for it.
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I voted up just cause Survivor is so boring to me lately.
I don't really care what kind of new objective it is, it's a hell of a lot better than what we got now.
The numbers on the mechanic can be tweaked once implemented if necessary. (Most likely necessary.)
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Regarding 2):
It's not that simple. You could adjust your concept so that the difference between solo and SWF would be less significant.
For example: You suggest that each gas station has one gas can which you need to transport the gas. The survivors lose that gas can when they get downed and have to pick that can up from where they got downed. Only the gas can's previous owner can see the aura of the gas can. These points could get changed so that the difference between solo and SWF wouldn't be that big.
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@NoShinyPony gas can should not be dropped, it should be spilled off and that survivor has to get gas again. Gas can dropped and another survivor can pick it makes SWF & Solo gaps too great.
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@C3Tooth Exactly that's point.
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Your idea seems reasonable, although i guess the devs would make disposable randomly spawning cans instead of gas stations (just pick them up and run to a gen)
But Im split on the regression on generators. Yeah gas is important but you have 20 charges surplus on a second visit, maling regression even worse than before.
The whole problem that gen tap does stop regression is a seperate but important matter. With your idea, the already weak regression goes even weaker.
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@Raptorrotas Not, eventhough Killer kicks the gen cause the gas leak, not the gen regression. But the gas will keep leaking until there is no gas left in the gen.
=> Killer can not do anything of gen progressing, but in the opposite Survivors can not do anything about gas leaking.
Further more, at currently gameplay, 4 survivors spawn together near a gen, that gen will be done in matter of 30sec if there is no Ruin. With gas mechanic, when 4 survivors spawn together near a gen, there must be at least Survivors (1) & (2) to get gas and fill up the gen before all 4 survivors can rush fixing it. It's smarter to have survivors (3) & (4) get gas and work on 2nd gen rather than waiting (1) & (2) to get gas and fill the 1st gen to rush it. Gen rush will be no more with gas mechanic.
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I feel like the regression should affect the progression of the gen as well, of course, slower progression or half speed of how fast the regression of the gas is.
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I liked @C3Tooth's idea more because it only affected gas, and not your actual progression. This meant more running around for the survivors, and less time holding M1 to recover lost repair progress.
Also, @Peanits can I get a BHVR read on this? I think this would heavy benefit the game in my opinion, with some tweaks that is.
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The idea that survivors have to pick up some parts or gas has been said so many times, but I doubt BHVR cares too much about something like that. Its unlikely that something like this will happen..
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This definitely wouldn't be the first time we've seen this idea, and it's still a very interesting concept. There's a couple things I would consider:
- Overall, generators would be powered faster. I would hesitate to factor the time spent traveling to get gas since you already need to make your way to a generator. Odds are there will be gas at least somewhat nearby, so it would be a fairly low amount of time. Aside from the short interactions to collect it, you wouldn't be adding a whole lot of time- you might actually be making it shorter. Knocking half the repair time off would likely be too much.
- This would very heavily benefit coordinated groups over solo players. To give a scenario: I'm working on a generator alone. I can only do 3/4 of the generator before I'm out of gas. If I'm playing with friends, we can very easily both grab gas and hammer out a generator in one go. As soon as the gas I put in runs out, they add theirs and we finish it.
- This also removes points of contention from the map. A killer can patrol generators to find survivors without tracking perks. If they're scattered around the map and spending less time on generators, they're going to be harder to spot. There would be nothing stopping me from immersing around the map, sneaking it to make some progress on a generator, then going right back to crouching in the grass. Since regression affects the gas and not the progress of the generator itself, it would be viable to do so. Even if I just do ten seconds of progress each time, that progress is safe and can't be removed, so I'd get there in the end.
It's still interesting though; it would just need a ton of balancing to get it right. It would spice up gameplay, but it could also make it easier if you're not careful.
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I like it, im tired of 5m games
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The gas stations can be limited to 2 or so around far corners of the map, Killer can not see its aura. This 2nd objective should be safe to do, and to lure Survivor to do corner Gens early because those are close to Gas stations.
Yes, gen repair time can be up to 60sec. But I do hope there is another system that can completely get rid of tunneling. Im tired of Hag basement tunneling that zero chance to escape, it ruins the experience playing this game.
There should be "no survivor hooked twice in a row". I mean if I get 1st hooked and if there is no other survivor get hooked but me getting down for the 2nd hook, I should have DS to escape, and it should be re-active again after my 2nd hook to prevent 2nd & 3rd hook in a row. If this hook system happen, I can take trials with even more/longer objectives, I feel I did alot of thing every single trial, even if I die, I should feel worth it.
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There should be a hook streak system where you'll get more BP if you hook a survivor that's different than the one you previously hooked.
Also, I wouldn't mind 2 Gas Stations, I said 7 before because there are 7 generators in every map. I'll update the thread to reflect your feedback, and I'll add the visual to the thread as well. :)
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@Peanits Are you devs currently considering the implementation of a 2nd objective for survivors? Or is it not planned for the near future?
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The game revolves the use of the M1 click. They aren't going to rework the whole gameplay to change M1. I suggest making it more interactive, but we need to remember that M1 is common in many games and probably will stay the same. 😀
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There should be a hook streak system where you'll get more BP if you hook a survivor that's different than the one you previously hooked.It doesnt work, get assure of 4K by tunnel individual survivor each time still get more bp. We need tunneling get rid, not 'reward if you're not tunneling' because tunneling is still possible.
Also, I wouldn't mind 2 Gas Stations, I said 7 before because there are 7 generators in every map. I'll update the thread to reflect your feedback, and I'll add the visual to the thread as well. :)Gas station is to get gas unlimited, if you spill it off, you get again. Its not an item that you drop and others can pick (So 7 gas stations for 7 gens is no need). So 2 Gas station from the opposite corner of the map will do, make time travel great for Survivors & Killer can not camp a Gas station.
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