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Is BHVR Suffering From A Lack Of Creative Design?
I know this will probably irk a lot of people, but I'm not out here to just mock or insult the dev team.
I truly feel like something is going on within BHVR that prevents them from releasing more creatively-designed Killers. I have no idea what that might be, but I'm just going off what I see.
If we look at all 16 of the Killers, you will notice patterns
~2 Killers that use traps (soon to be 3 with new Freddy)
~2 Killers that go invisible and cannot affect their surroundings until the become visible again
~2 Killers that use a chainsaw that immediately downs the Survivor upon hit
~2 Killers that stalk Survivors to increase how deadly they become
~4 Killers that utilize ranged attacks
~2 Killers that bring a unique object for Survivors to interact with
~2 Killers that can crouch
~Soon to be 2 Killers that can teleport to a certain object (new Freddy)
~Soon to be 2 Killers that can place illusory objects (new Freddy)
This means that, out of all 16 Killers, they only ones that have truly unique powers are Nurse and Legion, Nurse being able to Blink and Legion being able to interact with certain obstacles like survivors do.
Now sure, the Killers don't play exactly the same. I would never claim that. I'm just pointing out that BHVR really seems to look at what they have done before and use that as a base for future Killers rather than trying to be truly unique, and eventually this mentality will hurt the game.
Just sitting around and chatting with friends, I've come up with very unique Killers that would fit the game well, and I know lots of other players have as well. It's really easy to do. For example, a Killer who's Power works like an Obsession perk where the Killer gets stronger and faster based on the condition of the Obsession or the Obsession gets weaker based on the Killer's interaction. This is still taking something already in the game but that hasn't been used as a Power yet and crafting the beginnings of something new.
Another example would be a Killer that has a Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde playstyle in which the Killer is normally weaker than other Killers but when certain criteria is met (getting hit by pallets, generators getting done, being in the same chase past a certain amount of time, being blinded, performing a unique objective etc.) the Killer enrages and transforms into a massive beast of a man that is better than most Killers...but the transformation has a time limit. You could argue that Myers falls under this as well, but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I feel like one COULD argue that they are reaching the limits of what is possible within the mechanics and base design of their game, but to me it feels like so much more could be explored and has yet to have been explored.
What do you guys think? Do you think BHVR is somehow limiting themselves, or are they already reaching the limits of what can be done?
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Care to elaborate and offer counter arguments?
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I mean, what else you want to do? There is a limit imo and they are kinda close to reach it
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So, do you think Plague came out of nowhere? Or Legion? While Base Legion was truely annoying, it was still a cool concept. Plague is also really creative.
So no, they are not suffering from a lack of creativity.
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I already explained how Legion is one of the few with uniqueness in his Power, thought it is a small amount of uniqueness.
Plague is not unique: she uses projectile attacks and has a unique object Survivors can interact with. Fun fact, Freddy will also have a unique item to interact with upon his rework, so I need to add him to that list as well. Also, part of the small tweaks that make Plague who she is limits her potential in being a viable Killer because the Survivors have control over half of her perk. Sure, she has a ranged attack that is easier to hit than Huntress in some cases, but it doesn't deal damage unless the Survivors allow it to do so. This is why Plague is much worse than Huntress, as good Survivors can just not get hit or deal with being sick and still win.
Legion likes to go fast and stab people, the unique part being he can interact with vaults and pallets like a Survivor does when is Power is active. When Legion was first teased at TGA I thought we would be getting a Killer who acted as a Survivor and had to trick Survivors and put their mask on before attacking them, which would then change their model to their Killer model. Needless to say, I was disappointed.
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The problem here is that you are using the most generalised idea of a Killer. The best example is your comparison of Plague, Clown and Huntress (who is the 4th one with range attacks, by the way? Cant think of any other than those 3). Plague is less about range and more about putting the Survivor in a disadvantage (fully infected or having to deal with Corrupt Purge). Clown is area of denial, shortening chases, and most importantly, doesnt have ranged ATTACKS at all. Huntress is a straightforward first person shooter. What you are doing is forcibly putting Killers in the same bag for having even the slightest similarities.
Secondly, Freddy is a rework. He is our first full-rework of a character. Their original idea for this character wasnt well received, despite of the creativity behind it. Whether he needed a full rework or not, thats another separate matter entirely. Freddy has been out for a while now. They wont gain much from reworking an already released Killer. Using ideas they have already used is probably the better option. They have already invested a ton of time on this. They dont need to spend any more time on potentially a whole other chapter's worth of effort which will get them less revenue in the end anyway. Freddy's case is certainly special, thus I would leave him aside in all this.
Thirdly, the only two cases of properly reusing a power I can think of are Hillbilly and Leatherface, and Myers and Ghostface. And thats it. And what a coincidence, the two "replicas" are (licenced) characters that came in the form of a "paragraph" rather than a "chapter". For the first case, we all know Hillbilly is based on Leatherface in the first place. Everyone knows this. But the game grew in popularity, then they managed to get the character's usage, and bam, we have both of them. This is also a case of the movies limiting how much you can do with said character. Leatherface has his chainsaw and... absolutely nothing else. There isnt much more to do here.
Then lets look at Myers and Ghostface. He is a different approach to one of Myers' several playstyles and focusing solely on it. If anything, I see this as a revisit to the older character and thinking a way to isolate said playstyle and adjust the power accordingly without messing with the original character. Granted they could have done more with Ghostface, no denying on that. But, at the same time, they probably didnt want to spend too many resources on the license of just a mask. Not saying thats wrong or right, or whatever.
Finally, lets look at your suggestions. I will use my first point for this.
- "Obsession" killer: How is taking an already existing system and using it as base for another character different from taking an already existing character and using it as base for another character? See what you did there?
- Circumstantially Weaker/Stronger killer: Thats not only Myers. Thats also Legion, thats also Ghostface, thats Pig, thats Wraith, thats Nurse. Again, see what I did there?
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I just listed in my OP all the ways that show that they are being uninspired and lacking creativity, so it is not a fact that they are lacking or are not lacking in creativity.
It is a topic of discussion, and in your own topic you mentioned a new Killer idea, but why would you do that if BHVR doesn't like creativity and you would want to see them expand more?
Don't get me wrong, I like you idea of heavier illusions than just pallets, but I'm just stating that there is a clear discussion to be had and your own topic reflects this.
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This is like arguing that apples are unoriginal because oranges exist. Sure in an extremely basic say some are similar but with actual detail they're nothing alike. Trapper functions absolutely nothing like Hag. Spirit functions nothing like Wraith. They're all very unique concepts and more unique designs.
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No I don't think they have reached their limit of what can be done. This was proven when they changed endgame. No I don't think they are lacking creativity, They keep coming up with new killers, none of which play like the other. They keep coming up with new perks, which oddly do not over lap.
When it comes to content I think they are doing a PHENOMENAL job with the tiny box they have given themselves. My complaints only come with balance issues NOT creativity.
If you are feeling like the game is lacking spark maybe you are burnt out, take a break, come back in a few weeks. Trust me it helps.
Also, seriously, when you think of the slasher genre as a whole; how much "creativity" do you think is in there? Yet it was (and in some ways still is) a multi million dollar franchise. We have a long way to go before we are "out of ideas."
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The only limit on creativity is the human mind. They can come up of a billion character designs if they wanted to, very few of them would be easy to balance though. They did talk about a killer that can fly and with enough balancing I think it could work. They can also have characters that have AI to help them if they worked to make good enough AI. They could have killers be able to place objects like walls to block survivors into a certain area and maybe damage them. They could have a killer that can't actually hurt survivors but they can have mini killers they can control be around the map. Most of these ideas are in the game Identity V. However its just to show that there are plenty of killers that can be made.
I think for them its mostly money and time that limits them. What will make them the most money in the least amount of time.
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The way Trapper and Hag use their traps is completely different. To claim they're not unique because they both use traps is absurd.
Clown, Huntress and Plague use their projectiles completely differently as well.
Etc.
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Have you stopped to think that if they deviate TOO MUCH we'll have an even more unbalanced mess?
Killers have to obey certain design thresholds to be healthy. When you deviate too much from that, you have abominations such as release Legion. And Nurse comes close in terms of breaking game mechanics too, she's probably the limit of what they can do without destroying the game completely.
They are very creative inside of what can be done while keeping the game healthy.
And comparing Hag, Trapper and Freddy in terms of traps, just as comparing Spirit and Wraith in terms of invisibility, REALLY takes away from your point.
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Aha, an actual discussion!
I would label Doctor as having a ranged attack, considering his Shock Therapy is a much longer distance than his Melee attack. Sure, it doesn't deal damage, but it is still something that needs to hit and is outside of Melee range.
I can see where you are coming from with Clown not counting as a ranged Killer, but once again his Power is something that needs to hit and is outside or Melee range, thus making his Power in specific ranged-based.
Plague's Corrupt Purge is just a ranged attack with and augmented hitbox to act more like the fluid she is spewing. In that sense, her Power does not differ that much from Huntress, and sadly that is where she is most powerful and it often gets completely shutdown by Survivors controlling the game. Her previous power works similar to getting a ranged attack on a Survivor except that it takes longer and had the added effects of the Survivor having full control over whether that hit counts or not and being able to spread that to others. Minus the Plague puking on either a Survivor or on an item they interact with, Plague has no control over whether the first part of her even succeeds in being a first hit or spreading to others.
Funnily enough, I thought it was clear that I was talking about just the Powers, not the play-style that is encouraged by the Power, since that is personal preference and often play-styles that are different from the intended one end up being the norm. Then again, I will admit that Clown's area-denial is part of his Power. However, area-denial and chase shortening is not unique to the Clown, as both the Trapper and the Hag attempt to deny you from going through certain areas and every Killer wants to shorten the chase (some to the point where they try to have no chase at all, hence the stealthy play-style).
As for Freddy, I think it's fair to include him since I'm solely basing this on repeated mechanics that keep getting applied to Killers. He will be able to teleport (Hag), set traps (Hag and Trapper) and place fake pallets (Doctor). The things that make this different are that he can't pick where gens are placed and he takes a longer time to teleport with a clear sign he is doing so. I'm not sure has his traps work, so I can't say how they differ from Trapper or Hag. The difference from Doctor is that Freddy will be able to supposedly pick where the fake pallets go, making the Doctor even more obsolete as he needs an add-on just to have them randomly placed. Freddy was sadly very unique and his current state is a result of having a knee-jerk reaction to your player base's reaction without letting the content breathe long enough to make a proper decision.
I have no argument with with you on Billy and Bubba. It's clear that Billy was their Bubba before they could get Bubba. There are tweaks that make them slightly different, but even then it's the same basic idea.
Once again, I disagree with you on Ghost Face and Myers, I just find Ghost Face as extremely uninspired. Whatever you may think of why he is how he is, to me he is a mesh of two previous characters with a few tweaks and yet again is another Killer who suffers because of it.
Now for the personal ideas. I will admit, those two ideas are very much taking from things already in the game. It's not inherently bad to reuse ideas and resources and implement them differently. My issue is that I feel like this is happening exclusively. As for my ideas I mentioned, they were ones I thought up of immediately as I was making the post and I even acknowledged what they took from. This issue here is that it is that it is actually that simple to take an old mechanic and put a new spin on it, which makes it seem even worse on BHVR's end when they have multiple minds and ample time and they still come up with something this uninspired.
I didn't want to give away too much of my idea here as this isn't really the place for it, but the Obsession-based Killer idea was a Witch Doctor woman who used Voodoo. She would have the option to hit a Survivor with an attack that would do no damage to them, but would allow her to take a piece of their hair and use that with her doll to curse them. This cursed player would suffer certain penalties until the Killer decided to curse another player, in which case they would be freed from the curse. I've already thought of many ways to properly balance it and how players would try to outsmart or work around the mechanic, but once again I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss it.
Also, the Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde idea would incorporate mechanics not yet used in DBD for both forms depending on the main idea I would choose to go with. This would make him play much different from Myers,to the point that you would have to dumb him down much more than I may have on my OP to compare them. The other Killers you listed don't really apply here, as they either debuff the Survivor or have an active skill rather than a passive buff that can be increased. The best one you mentioned is Legion, who temporarily buffs his speed for as long as his power is active.
Since I started this discussion, I'll do well to post my finished ideas in the proper section and then link them here.
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Legion is the lamest design in a game, I don’t know who at BHVR thought a bunch of edgy teenagers would make for a good killer. It’s just a dumb idea.
And the design is basically just “dude with a knife”. ZzZzZ
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Ahh, someone who gets me.
Like I said, it's fine to take something you've already done and mix it up. People do that all the time to avoid boredom. It's why I acknowledge that the Killers who have the same base do have tweaks and play differently, but it doesn't change the fact the base is the same.
Even if the ideas you mentioned are from another game, I love the ideas we have here. I think you are right that they are limiting themselves. I just don't know what it is that is limiting them. It could be money or time or resources, but they seem to be rather successful, so is it really a lack of these things or is it greed?
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Honestly, it doesn't. You guys are missing the point.
Clearly there are things that others have mentioned that they haven't even tried to implement in the slightest that could work if done properly. Their game is already unbalanced in favor of Survivors because they keep putting the power in the hands of the Survivor over the Killer, even to the point that the Killer's power can become inert depending on if the Survivors allow it or not.
Legion doesn't break the game: he was balanced improperly and his design was a big on the weaker side, but the reason he was so unfun to go up against was because his Power was used better with a different play-style than what was originally intended. BHVR didn't take this into account, and thus Legion is what Legion is.
The point isn't "You are dumbing down Killers to their base instead of recognizing what makes them different." I AM recognizing what makes them different, I just don't think it's enough and that if BHVR keeps down this road of taking a base they have already done and trying to make small tweaks they will lose people's interest. Even if the Hag players different from Freddy who plays different from Trapper, it doesn't change the fact both Hag and Trapper incorporate traps into their base and the rest of their Power revolves around them (and since all Trapper's power is the trap itself, this is one of the many reasons why he is one of the worst Killers) and that Freddy will now be able to incorporate that as well.
This can also potentially lead to a Killer doing what another one does but doing it better, making other Killers obsolete. Billy vs Bubba and Spirit vs Wraith are good examples of this.
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Wraith can interact with his surroundings.
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Definitely!
I think they are limiting themselves with "humanoid" characters. Abilities and other cool things would be amazing, throwing people in something, etc.. It does seem repetitive and dry, but they are never the less, fun and enjoyable.
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This whole list of trying to point out similarities while being SUPER vague about them is laughable. Lemme join in.
1.Number of killers with the intention of KILLING survivors-16
2.Number of killers who can move-16
3.Number of killers who use a weapon of some sort...16 (Im including hag since Chuck Norris has showed us bare hands can be weapons of the most lethal variety)
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Freddy traps work similarly to Hag's water-logged shoe add-on. Slows survivors that activate the trap, unlike Hag's trap though Freddy trap will continue to slow survivors after leaving the trap area similar to Clown gas bottles.
Also the devs have already said they won't do non-humanoid killers because of money and resources, so money definitely plays a part into making new killers
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Man, I REALLY don't like their reasoning on that considering how successful they seem to be now, but maybe that could change down the line.
Even so, with just humanoids, there is so much you can do that they haven't delved into yet and each new Killer seems to just take a previous concept they already have done and taken a new angle. They can only do that for so long and they really need to spice it up.
I love all the people coming in here and being cynical when I offered a legitimate discussion. I feel like people really don't like to question the developers of games they like. Be careful of that, or you could end up as the next Pokemon fan base.
I appreciate all those who have offered genuine discussion though.
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is that marth?
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It's basically like you're saying certain killers are the same because they both have legs.
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I'd love to see your ideas for killer powers described exactly in detail, then we can really talk about it.
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Im still wondering what the 4th killer with a ranged attack is
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Ghostface's power was super unoriginal.
But the other concepts are fine.
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@Andreyu44 What could they have MADE his power then? The character was asked for for quite some time, but they cant just pull things out of nowhere and give him lazer eyes or something.
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When do we get pigs bear traps 2.0?
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He mentioned Doctor. So Huntress, Plague, Clown and Doctor are the 4 ranged attack Killers.
Totally the same, all of them.
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@Aven_Fallen Didnt know we were considering Doc's shock therapy a ranged attack. Anyone whos ever played Doc knows the range of it is so short, its painful without using range extending addons. With that mindset though, can we also include Billy and Nurse as ranged killers, since they both throw...themselves? Also, Wraith can be a ranged killer since hes really good at "throwing" the game...ok, Ill stop...
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If you want to get technical almost every game shares the same thing. Cool a new gun that shoots slightly faster, oh cool a new car that has a slightly faster boost, oh cool new enemies that are slightly stronger. I’m not worried if some killers share slight similarities because it’s going to happen, I’ll start to worry when they release a killer that had absolutely no changes and is basically a reskin. I’m honestly surprised the devs have been able to add so much in such a simple concept. DBD is literally just a game of hide and seek so for them to add that much is nice. It’s not like it’s an open world game with a story and narrative so creating something brand new and 100% original will be difficult to come by. If the devs just keep adding killers with slightly different powers people will still most likely buy them however the gameplay will get a bit stale overtime. A new game mode would definitely spice things up and hopefully if a story mode comes along then it would add so much to the game. However time being it’s fine where it is but if the devs keep it like this for years it will become stale and not worth getting excited for.
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So untrue and unfair. Spirit, Nurse, Doctor, Hag, and there's more. Each is unique and requires different gameplay.
If anyone misses creativity it's some players: a lot of us throws a tantrum as soon as something new is introduced, something we have to adapt to, and relearn the game a little.
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op is kinda right , look at ghostface , he is mix of myers and pig , literally . there is almost no diffrence in power , just remove his stalking and use teleport to lockers or something . the stalking feels terrible for a killer as for survivor . and the survivor control his power . same with plague ,,, freddy pallets are literally copy of doctor addons , and snares are like worst version of trapper or the hag traps with collision ,,,, plz dont make freddy rework , old freddy much better , maybe change ppl in design team if they have no idea anymore for cool killer powers ,,
I mean the dude from design team on live steam who worked on freddy literally forgot that a perk like calm spirits exists XDDDD he didnt even think of it , only somebody question if this perk sotp freddy scream then he was like : wait ######### is calm spirits ^^
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They suffer much more from lack of QA prior releases and the absence of code management.
Post edited by Sheldor on0 -
@Jimsalabim I've never seen him with glasses.
Plus this meme's definitely older than DbD.
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BHVR has few ideas, but confused.
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I personally think that behavior is very creative.
They just fighting against two things:
-They like to stretch their ideas imo because they also like to have space for new ideas in a few years. I mean let us be honest... Without new content patches, this game would die, like every other game that gets no content patches and so I think they doing it right to come slowly with new things.
-Everytime they implementing something new, like the Legion, Spirit, mom and so on, there old playerbase starts crying and I can only assume, that this is also something what holds them back if we talk about new ideas.
Aka. "We could make this really fun making killer... But then our forums would be flooded in survior tears"... "Let us better forget this idea".
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BHVR runs the same basic concepts, sure. Their actual implementation is different, though.
What I'm worried about is the threat of a new trend in combination killers - Ghostface is Pig/Myers, New Nightmare is Hag/Clown. I do think that BHVR has stagnated a bit as far as actually new ability concepts, but their overall gameplay in even these mashups has been unique.
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