Help me understand
So there's this common line of thinking I keep reading from killer mains on this forum and I don't think it falls in line with how ALL killer mains think, but it's still puzzling that anyone honestly believes this.
I keep seeing something along the lines of "the killer's skill does not matter and if they 'win' (whatever you define as winning can vary from person to person), it's because the survivors played terribly."
I could run that same logic (if you could call it that) and say:
- If I escaped, it's because the killer played terribly.
- If we got gens done quickly, the killer wasn't applying enough pressure.
- If I ran the killer for a long time, it's because they couldn't mind game me or shut loops down, or they respected pallets too much, etc.
- If I..... you get the point.
It sounds ridiculous to take responsibility off yourself for how a game turns out, good or bad.
I play killer as well. I've played killer up to rank 5 (could've gone higher, but I put more time into survivor). I get 3ks and 4ks majority of my games. Sure, in some cases the survivors just played terribly and did stupid things, but in many cases, I also mind gamed them, pressured them, and outplayed them.
To say the killer's skill doesn't matter is naive at best and a flat out denial of responsibility in your own bad gameplay at worst.
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Try red ranks. The majority of killers complaining about it are that. Survivor differences between red and purple is massive.
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Killer main here, and I agree with this. The comments you are referring to sound like they are coming from an egotistical, immature perspective of "I'm better than you, so it's not my problem that you lost and I WON". It's over simplifying things, and as you point out, there is a layer of complexity to how everything turns out in any given game, regardless of what role you're playing.
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I don't think it's that huge of a difference as me and my friends tend to float around red/purple (currently rank 2 survivor) and the way we play and our skill level isn't all that different. I'm a little better at running the killer than they are and they are better than me at hitting those stupid Hex Ruin skills checks I hate lol
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Long story short: the statement is correct. Dbd is rng based, pallet and windows spawn are random. Some loops cant be mindgamed, just taken. The survivor has the entire power in a loop, especially in loop where killer can be seen (thompson house fences/old coldwind farm). If survivors lose is because they werent optimal enough.
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No apology necessary.
Because of RNG, I agree that sometimes your skill doesn't matter or matters less. And as you also stated, RNG sometimes negatively affects the survivors as well. Hell, I had a game where I spawned on top of a hill on the farm level and me and the killer could see each other (and it was Michael) so I was like, ######### my life I guess XD
As far as perks/items/add ons are concerned, I could run a counter argument to say that insta-heals are just as fair as insta-downs. And actually, more fair because the insta-heal gets used once and it's done. Insta downs (chainsaws, iri hatchets, whatever the clown bottle is called) can be used throughout the entire match.
And then I can also argue that the perks you mentioned make up for the fact that killers have powers and weapons and survivors don't. Sure a survivor can sprint burst, but can teleport to a trap after a survivor runs near it, or blink, or phase walk, or whatever their power may be. Without those perks, survivors would literally never escape.
And then we have Ebony Mori's which are free wins unless you just really don't do anything.
I played a match against clown few days ago and I looped him for 3 gens to the point where he gave up on me. We got to the end game and I dodge 4 bottles in a row, he catches me with the 5th and I go down in one hit and die on my first hook because everyone else escaped or died already. I could argue that completely takes my skill out of the equation, or I can accept the fact that he learned as he played and figured out how to catch me.
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Because it's true. In theory it would make sense to deny it applying the same logic to survivors, as you did. However you are not taking into account the way the game is played in red ranks.
First of all the game is balanced around survivors not having comms. That way even ultra optimal survivors have to guess and waste some time going for saves, deciding when to use certain loops, etc. But the reason a killer's skill is almost irrelevant in high rank play is because survivors are able to bypass many of these "obstacles" that keep the game balanced since most of them are playing with comms. Add to this the fact that there is little a killer can do with all the dozens of pseudo infinite loops the game has, which are not terrible in low ranks since survs don't know how to exploit them. Haddonfield + Balanced landing, the big storehouse in Macmillan, Crotus Prenn disturbed ward, etc. the list goes on and on and on.
Survivors typically have guaranteed tools to make the game harder for killer, but killers have to rely on RNG 75% of the time to win. They need good totem spawns, good gen spawns, good map, good loops in order to have a chance at winning.
I love playing both sides and I don't blame people who play with their friends because I know it's unrealistic to ask people not to in a game like this one. I do think, however, that the best first step towards fixing the game's balance issues would be to make the playfield equal for all survivors. Solo survs have an impossible time making it to rank 1 and survivors with comms break the game too easily. If every survivor had comms in their base kit it would allow for appropriate adjustments to killers, since they would be balanced and buffed accordingly to how efficient they can be against 4 coordinated survivors.
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IMO while a lot may be RNG based, you also can’t pretend like you can’t make the best out of the situation as killer.
I see a lot of killers immediately DC if they get a certain map or if Ruin gets cleansed in the first 30 secs. So it’s like they didn’t even try.
The win is not going to be handed to you regardless of what rank you play. You also have to put in the work, and that doesn’t mean only relying on survivors making mistakes.
Both sides have tools that can make or break a match. It’s about what you do with the tools you have at your disposal, this includes the map you just spawned in.
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I agree that that mindset is defeatist and naive but it is rooted in a truth: Survivors do dictate the game. When a survivor is running a loop, there is nothing the killer can do other than decide wether they invest that time or just leave and get nothing. A really good survivor can loop a really good killer for the time it would take 3 survivors to do 10 generators if there hasn't been some bad player wasting pallets before that.
Good killers are good at capitalizing on survivor's mistakes. The only killers who avoid having to take that route and can play proactively instead of reactively are The Nurse and maybe The Spirit.
So, yes, "git gud" applies here but there are definitely some matches in which killers hard lose even though they played really well. All it takes for that is a good juker and 3 randoms that are competent enough to hold M1 and press Space from time to time.
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@JnnsMu I think you’re exaggerating there with the 3 survivors being able to do 10 gens while a good looper is being chased by a “good” killer.
A good killer knows when to stop the chase, especially if it’s at an infinite.
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Oh yeah that's definitely something killers can do. And it's worth it if the other survivors aren't as good at juking or just don't abuse the same spot(s). But it also means that all of the time that the killer has invested in that chase is wasted apart from one or two destroyed pallets. That's why I came to that ambiguous conclusion: There are things that killers can do but against good survivors, all options seem bad sometimes.
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If you exclude Nurse, the statement is true. DbD is not balanced and survivors have a huge advantage. If the survivors play well, the killer can't compensate his default disadvantage and loses.
The survivors have to make some big mistakes for the killer to be able to win.
I'm saying this as a survivor main.
(That doesn't mean that the killer's skill doesn't matter. If the survivors play bad and the killer plays bad, then the survivors will win. But as a killer, you depend on the survivors making mistakes. When I get a 3k or 4k, I know in which situation they messed up and gifted me the win.)
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and spirit
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Depends on the add-ons. I'm not excluding a "normal" Spirit from the statement. Prayer Beads is another story.
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another one know something huh, i glad to see you
but i never saw less than green, also i using more than green
because this killer can earn tons of bp per game and more addons usable than most killers, even best to use addons
too many sets you can usable in game
charge set, duration and speed set , recovery set, beads and jewel pocket??
knife socket?? set and unblockable father glass with mother ring set
default spirit is not fast and low efficiency of skill meter
but who play spirit default?
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People need to read this.
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Eh, but you can hear her footsteps with prayer beads.
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I'm sure you can see some Spirits with brown/yellow add-ons, especially in the mid-ranks. But yes, I understand what you are saying. The add-ons influence the Spirit's viability a lot.
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You can't hear her footsteps when you are working on a gen. The sounds from the gen are too loud. And the biggest problem with Prayer Beads are the gen grabs.
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Blah blah blah.
Skill always matters.
Maybe the game is more survivor-sided at the very top with SWF and everything. MAYBE. That is debatable.
But the opinion many killers have that they can only win if the Survivors screw up, is true at all ranks, and not just at the top. These are basically just sorry gamers who refuse to take responsibility and believe that they are already godly players, but because the game is "Survivor-sided" they can't win even if they play perfectly (and they always play perfectly every game!) unless the survivors make mistakes.
It's just overly-prideful people with gigantic egos trying to convince themselves so the castle of cards they built up doesn't collapse.
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True... but there are other ways to find out. Just bring a flashlight and blind the husk. That's the quickest way to break the spirit from haunting.
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The opposite is true. I'm a survivor main and if my team wins, I often know that we didn't win because we were better than the killer. It's just because we had a default advantage and we didn't make too many severe mistakes.
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Debatable...? Hahahaha... you haven't played much top ranks, have you? XD
In my experience, survivor mains tend to have the bigger egos. You are helping prove that with your statement.
One more thing: Just watch some truetalent, or other top rank killers and tell me they don't have skill.
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You need at least 3 people with flashlights to have a chance to pull that off as a counter-strategy. And I still doubt that this will work as good as it sounds in theory. I've never seen it work against Prayer-Beads-Spirit.
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It's ridiculous for the killer to take blame and responsibility off themselves but not for the Survivors to do the same?
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Hm... that is true. Maybe it should be balanced that when she spirit haunts outside the TR, the rate at which the meter goes down is increased substansially? That might balance it to be very situational... but then again, it's only use is gen grabbing builds. : P
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