Behaviour Not Reducing Solo/SWF Gap
In the most recent AMA on reddit (8/1/19), Behaviour made the following comment:
"We have been keeping SWF in mind as we design new content to make sure that solo players aren't left behind, and we would like to revisit existing mechanics as well to make them more accessible to solo players. By bringing solo players up to the same level, we would be able to better balance around coordinated groups without leaving solo players behind."
But have they actually made any attempt at bringing Solo players up to the level of SWF?
Let's look at another answer from the developers on the same AMA in regards to adding a totem counter so that a solo queue can have the same information that SWF can easily have through communication.
"...we have thought about this as this has been brought up a few times. We are unsure whether or not we will put a totem counter in game, or whether a perk such as Small Game might get the counter at the moment. Ultimately, we are looking for the best way to bridge this knowledge gap between solos and swf."
Why are they unsure? If SWF can easily obtain the information through voice communication, and if the goal is to strengthen Solo up to SWF level, isn't this an obvious answer? Why would a perk like Small Game even be required if SWF can get it without a perk slot? Isn't the 'best way to bridge this knowledge gap between solos and swf' giving Solo players the same information that SWF players have?
Now let's look at an answer Horvath gave in regards to making Kindred part of the base kit for survivors (7/25/19 Dev Stream).
"We're still looking to tighten the gap between Solo Survivors and Survive With Friends. I know we spoke about making Kindred available to everyone by default, but ultimately I don't think this is what we are going to do. The initiative to bridge the gap will continue and we will find solutions on case by case basis."
Again, why wouldn't they do this, given that SWF can give the information out on 1. which direction the killer is heading after the hook and 2. how close and available all the other survivors are from the hook, and 3. who (and how many) should rescue and who should remain on the generators. This is the most fundamental way in which SWF can be much more efficient than a group of solo players, and yet Behaviour is hesitating even on such basic, yet essential change?
'Case by case basis'? If the information is already readily available to SWF players through communication, why should Behaviour 'pick and choose' which information should be implemented for solo players? Shouldn't ANY and EVERY information that can be obtained by SWF be also available to Solo queue, if the ultimate goal is indeed to bridge the knowledge gap between the two types of players?
So far, Behaviour has not demonstrated any signs of bridging the gap between Solo and SWF, despite the fact that they keep saying they are. Now, personally, I don't believe bringing solos up to the level of SWF is the best fix to the SWF imbalance issue. But if that is indeed the direction Behaviour has chosen to go in, then they should put 100% of their effort and priority to eliminate the Solo/SWF gap instead of continually dragging their feet after three+ years.
And the first step is giving players a clear explanation as to why a base Kindred and Totem Counter are not going to be given to solo players.
Comments
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BHVR hates all solos, killers and survivors alike.
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I don't believe Behaviour actually hates solo players or killers. I do believe that they don't have any team dedicated to fixing the imbalance between Solo/SWF/Killers, given how they have not made any progress in the area since they closed off the results screen until everyone was finished with the match.
In my opinion, this should have been prioritized since the day SWF had been implemented, given how it affects so many aspects of this game, from individual killers to perks.
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So instead of bringing SWF down to Solo level or both meeting in the middle, they decide to bring solo up to SWF? So Randoms will be just as powerful as SWF? Wondeful, just wonderful.
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No, their intention is making Solo players as powerful as SWF, so that they can buff all killers to the overall 'Survivor' level.
Ultimately, they want Solo and SWF in the same playing field so that killers can be balanced against just one type of opponent, instead of how it is currently, where killers waver between the Solo and SWF gap while Solos complain that Killers are too strong, and Killers complain that SWF are too strong.
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So those rumors about in the code of the game showing "push to talk" and "voice coms" ia true? They're really bringing voice comms to dbd?
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They've been thinking about bringing the gap for years now. It's not a priority for them and given how many killers they still need to tweak and maps they need to rework I'm not sure it will be anytime soon.
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No, @Peanits had clarified that they have no plans to do that. When asked what those codes were, he (8/2/19) answered:
Those are plugins that are packaged with the Unreal Engine. This is also why VR popped up a while back. Sometimes when you update the engine, they slip back in. You can find those exact same strings of text, word for word, in loads of other Unreal games.
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Horvath said that base Kindred was way too powerful for them to put in. Maybe watch the entire stream next time.
And a totem counter would also be way too powerful to put in, as it would mean a complete negation of NOED every single game.
Like honestly THINK about these things before making such comments. Think about what would happen, it doesn't take much to see when something would be way too powerful.
Also stop asking for details. Details can and do change. If they tell us something and it changes, now they look like ass hats. When the features are near ready to go live THEN we will get the details because at that point the details won't change much if at all.
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The honest answer is they just dont care how unfun the game is honestly they really dont as long as there are cosmetics to be made get used to this awful game state nothing is going to change they've said this load of crap for 3 years nothing has changed nothing will change because they honestly dont understand how to change it so just get used to the boring games where killers get pretty much bullied and get used the the solo games where they get smashed i guess.
In before someone goes "ITS two different teams" cool still does not change the fact the cosmetic team has literally done more work then the whole company combined and that right there is a problem.
Maybe devote less time to cosmetics and more towards game health all im saying give the cosmetic team a vacation honestly they've earned it.
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The problem is, the developers don't know what the killers are being tweaked against. What are the killers being balanced against? Solo players? Or SWF players who are capable of having plethora of information that are not given to them from the game, but from each other?
The Nurse is too strong? Against what, solos or SWF?
The Trapper is too weak? Against what, solos or SWF?
As so long as SWF have any advantage over Solos, the killers are never going to be able to be appropriately balanced.
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I agree with you but either they don't see it that way or they're being told to focus on other things by higher ups.
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I just rewatched the portion of the stream in which Horvath addressed the Kindred issue. He did not say it was too powerful for them to put in. ...maybe you should rewatch it?
Yes, a Totem Counter would be too powerful against current killers, and yet SWF can easily keep track of how many totems have been cleansed. Why should SWF have that advantage over Solo players?
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The only way to even out the powerlevel between SWF and solo is to implement the following for all survivors:
- the last observed state of any interactable object is permanently revealed to all survivors. For example, if someone sees an armed trap somewhere then the trap becomes visible to all survivors through a global aura and stays visible even if the killer moves the trap, unless another survivors goes there and sees that the trap is gone. At that point the aura is erased. For the following: lockers, chests, traps, generators (progress, regression), totems, Plague vomit on objects, Jigsaw boxes, Plague pools
- the last observed killer position is revealed to all survivors, if a survivor keeps looking at the killer during a chase the killer aura stays revealed for the entire duration
- all survivor auras are revealed to each other always
- as soon as any survivor can reliably tell that a killer has a certain perk, that perk becomes revealed to all survivors (for example, once any survivor is hit by Sloppy Butcher all survivors are told that the killer has Sloppy Butcher)
- all perks and their state (cooldowns, ...) of all survivors are always revealed to all survivors
- all status effects on all survivors are always revealed to all survivors
Or you could just add voicechat to the game, it would accomplish the same thing
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I'm all for bridging the gap but not by bringing solo up to swf. Just because swf can bypass the need to equip certain perks doesn't mean I want to be handed information I didn't earn.
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Any penalty you add to SWF can be bypassed by leaving lobbies until you all end up in the same lobby together. Therefore the only sensible solution is to buff solo survivors to SWF levels and then nerf survivors as a whole
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While more Information for solo may sound good it may have adverse effects such as making the game boring and nerfing killer perks and also buffing SWF at the same time.
The game is about the not knowing for many players and with over 50% playing solo you have to ask is it what they actually want? What would keep them in the game if everything is handed to them? I understand friends wanting to play together as they have a laugh while doing so but solo don't have that interaction and instead it removes a lot of the risks or need to be aware.
That on top of everything needing done would also need killer buff at the same time or people may stop playing that role.
It's very hard to integrate these into the game even one by one as a simple change can tip the scales a lot and could hurt it more than help.
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In regards to SWF imbalance, I notice that you never seem to offer any solution, whether it's a separation of Solo/SWF queues or solo's information buffs to the level of SWF, proceeded with Killer overall buffs. You always seem fixated on the potential problems that may come up, or how some people may not like the change. It's as if you prefer the status quo of keeping the imbalance between Solo and SWF. If I am incorrect in my assessment, I apologize.
As a mainly solo player, the developers' decision about buffing solo to the level of SWF isn't something I personally want, due to the fact (like you've stated) it takes away from the atmosphere of the game, as well as how it is originally intended to be an anti-social multiplayer game. Honestly, it makes me really sad that this is the solution that the developers decided on. But I also recognize that something absolutely needs to be done about the imbalance, and if this is the direction that the developers are heading in, then I will grudgingly support it. BUT I want them to do it with 100% commitment, and not half-ass the issue in which they pick and choose what communication prompts should solo players be allowed to have when they know that SWF players already have all of them. I want them to invest in fully balancing the game, however it may turn out. And if it doesn't work, then immediately put 100% into another solution. The worst thing that they can do is not do anything, or only take minimal steps just to say they've done something.
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Way to powerful yet swf has it for free and they claim swf is fine at the same time. What kind of double standard is that?
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You are wrong in your assessment.
I don't come up with any ideas as I don't have any that would sort the issue.
Separating queues only works in theory for 4 man and 2 x 2 man but a 3 man needs a solo. Then you have the problem of who would play in one queue and not the other which could potentially hurt both.
As for information the amount we already have been given has hurt certain perks which work best off players not knowing or having to be aware. It also has ruined the immersion of the game making it become more mundane over time with so many aura perks and notifications happening.
These are the reason I also think the devs may be reluctant to add more and find it so hard to find a way to balance the game for the two player sets as at least 50% or more may be affected by the changes.
I also recognise something has to be done but what that is I do not know. I am a believer of fixing the actual problem and not everything around it as the problem can come back over time which means changing SWF directly but as they have stated its not what they want to do as not all are tryhard squads and most simply want to have fun.
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If SWF were in a separate queue, then 3-Man SWF probably wouldn't even require a solo and the Killer probably wouldn't need any buffs either, since that's one less person to worry about in the beginning. And if both Solo queue and SWF queue are both properly balanced, then they could always set up a system in which they offer (bloodpoint?) incentives for the queue/role that needs players. But I believe we've already had that discussion before, and right now, I rather stay on the topic of how the developers have decided to handle the SWF imbalance and what they have done about it so far.
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The direction that they are heading in will indeed hurt certain killer perks (as well as many killers' 'invisibility' powers), but killers have already been suffering these same problems every time they are forced to face SWFs. Which is why many of the killers' powers and their perks will probably have to be buffed to the point of being unrecognizable while solo adjustments are made to be on the level of SWF.
And like I said previously, I absolutely agree with you that it would ruin the immersion of the game (at least, as a solo for me). You have no idea how much I don't want my solo experience tampered with. But I also understand that game balance is much more important than my personal feelings on the matter. And I recognize that for many killers, SWF have been ruining immersions since its implementation. Just like the changes in the result screen where players' perks became covered until the match ended, some aspect of the game will have to change for the health of balance at the detriment of some other aspects and convenience. But like I said previously, I don't want the sacrifice to come at the price of some haphazard attempts. All I'm saying is, if the developers are going to do this, they better do this at 100%.
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Really, in order to make solo as good as SWF they just need to add a pre game chat and allow other survivors to see eachothers perks (I have borrowed time, I have ds,etc) and another chat box in game and/or pings and notifications like they did in league of legends. (On my way, be careful ping,etc).
Boom fixed
And honestly I don't mind solo being buffed to swf status, I want a more challenging and fair game . Swf ain't ever going away so let's adjust the game buff killers and solo survivors and have a real battle with both sides using all they can.
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I agree that since the change to hide killers' perks/addons in the tally screen, there hasn't been any progress, but I think that the reason is that it's not black and white: the playerbase isn't divided in hopeless solos and commando SWF. Some solos can already get a lot on information through observation and can coordinate with others, many SWF groups don't use voice comm to coordinate and share informations but rather to joke around. In conclusion it's more complicated that what it might seem.
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SWF's current appeal probably makes it hard to balance in any major way for both killer and survivor.
Post edited by Raccoon on0 -
If the game is still unfun why you still stream it then? Contradiction at its finest.
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Um bud i think you got me confused with someone else there bud XD
I dont stream dbd at all my internet is not good enough but okay i guess?
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I hate how they band-aid problems with perks.
Oh you want a totem counter in the game? Well we put small game in so you dont need one.
Great. Now let me just equip the 40 perks i need into my 4 slots to counter every possible situation.
Thanks BHVR.
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The sooner they buff solos to swf level, the sooner they can start looking at buffing killers. It’s a win-win.
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You're not supposed to counter every poissible situation. There isn't a challenge in a game if you have a counter to every possible situation.
I don't get the amount of complaining in this forum.
They can't magically fix everything. And most fixes for a game like this cause other problems for someone else anyway.
They obviously care about the fanbase or they'd just let the game die out. No more content. No more anything.
Be patient. If you have 8 million people yelling different wants at you I assure you you wouldn't be able to service them all.
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Bhvr could just put in a toggle switch so killers can stop getting paired with SWF groups.
Might take longer to que but it'll fix the issue. Swf servers separate from 4 solo players servers.
Or maybe so swf only gets paired with higher ranked killers that can handle a combined effort of a four player team
Like pro mode and noob mode.
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SWF should have never been added in the first place.
Lets not buff solos. lets nerf swf. Give them blindness, and a 20% gen repair penalty to make things a little less one sided.
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Would be a complete waste of time and resources as it would just annoy and confuse casual players and people that really want to tryhard could just circumvent it by lobby dodging until they get eachother as solos. Not even that hard if they are geographically and rank-wise close to eachother.
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They obviously care about the fanbase or they'd just let the game die out.
Money
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Putting a totem counter in the game would make all Hex perks worthless.
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A totem counter would literally have zero effect on every hex perk except for NOED. And that would be arguably a healthy change.
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My friends and I often play Kill Your Friends, all 5 of us in the same Discord and it is amazing. IMO the answer to this isn't in perks or in-game balance but about mechanically leveling things out in a fun way. It's the most afraid we ever get in the game because the killer hears you.
Put in game voice PROXIMITY chat in the game (Like Friday the 13th has). However, make it so the killers and survivors don't understand each other.
When a survivor talks, the killer hears The Entity twist their words giving away the survivors direction.
When the killer talks, the survivors hear The Killer road/scream/taunt/random whatever sounds per killer.
SURVIVORS: Would you like to bait the Killer away from your injured friend by yelling at a killer to chase you instead? Wouldn't it fun to actually hold your breath while you crouch around? Maybe you're feeling brave while hiding and just as the killer is about to leave, you let out a quick clue to find you and waste their time more?
KILLERS: Tired of flashlight clicking? How about giving new use to perks dealing with sound like Stridor? Would you like to say whatever you want to survivors and know they're hearing your terrifying roars of their impending doom?
BUSINESS: More DLC items! Add new roars/taunts/whatever. Hell you could even do actual voice lines for the characters you could activate with a button like emoting if you want to! (On a cooldown, please!)
Sure SWF could stay in Discord, but this lets all games be SWF so all survivors can share knowledge based on proximity. It gives them tools to help their friends and a feeling of fear. Killers get all kinds of new clues to find their prey.
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They use perks and new killers to 'fix' problems so they don't have to apply remedies to the core game. So they can't add more built-in secondary objectives, lengthen matches or shorten chases, because then Pig using Ruin would be objectively too-powerful, ergo that's the whole reason they designed the Pig and Ruin in that way.
You can't have a totem counter if there's a perk for it; what would be the point of the perk then? They reduced the time it takes to break pallets, so Brutal Strength HAD to be nerfed in order for it to have the same overall effect on gameplay. They wanted to incentivise killers to leave the hook, but made it cost a perk-slot whilst survivors have the aura-read for hooks by default.
The devs once got rid of the killers aura-read for used-hooks and claimed it was a bug, before later saying it was intentional, then later 'fixing' it under bug-fixes in the patch-notes. We never found out which version was true. They obviously experiment, watch the backlash and then make decisions based on the reaction.
We're having to guess at their methods though, because they're not open about anything.
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Casuals are already annoyed, and confused. No change there. And if the tryhards want to lobby dodge so they can have an unfair advantage let them. it would just make them pathetic losers. And it would spare a lot of killers from dealing with toxic SWF groups. If they dodge even one lobby that's at least one killer saved.
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Here's a thought: how about giving the killer a small movement speed boost when going against SWF. I would suggest this sort of implementation: for each survivor in a group beyond the first, the Entity draws on their power of friendship (or whatever lore dressing you need) and channels it to the killer as a 1% speed boost. So the possible combos would be 0% if all solo queue, 1% if 2 swf and 2 solo queue, 2% if 3 swf and 1 solo queue OR 2 swf groups of 2, and 3% if all are in the same SWF group. Simple, clean, doesn't shake up core gameplay too much.
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Although I would like the discussion to remain on 'the direction that Behaviour decided to take in regards to SWF imbalance' (buffing solos to SWF level, then balancing killers to it) and their action (or the lack thereof) taken so far, I would like to quickly address something that has been brought up several times.
That is, why they don't just nerf SWFs instead of buffing Solos, given how 1. SWF seems to be the problem, and 2. killers already seem to be mostly balanced for solo players.
The reason, I believe, is mainly due to the fact that '(hidden) information' can't be taken away from SWF, but information can (ideally) be given to solos. The main advantage that SWF have over Solo players is that they can obtain information through communicating (and coordinating) with each other instead of gaining that info through the actual game. And 'information' itself can't be taken away (nerfed) from SWF. So you have to nerf them in some other respect - aka find a substitute nerf-object. However, since you are not dealing with the actual source of the problem (information), even if suitable 'nerf' replacements can be found for the current state of the game, as new contents (new killers, perks, maps, etc.) are added over time, they may not continue to have the same effect as they originally did, and may have to be changed again and again.
However, buffing Solos are different, in that they can actually add 'information' that SWF already has by adding visual cues to the UI. Since they are directly adding 'information' to solo players instead of some other aspect, ideally, it shouldn't become as much as a problem over time. Even this isn't foolproof, and I can already foresee several problems with this direction, but my suspicion is that this was the reason for their decision.
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If folks would like to discuss about this topic further, please create a new thread for it - although it is certainly important to talk about other ways developers could have better implemented a solution for the SWF imbalance, I would like this thread to remain on topic about what the developers have already decided to do, and what they have done so far about it after three+ years.
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@knell They are still considering about the totem counter, even though it has been "brought up many times" (including by myself), because killer mains are crying about it. Or, to better put it, incompetent cheap killer mains who pick NOED. About Kindred, even though it would only be fair to have all SWF info available to solo players, having a perk that shows you the exact position of the killer by his aura would be too much. But, on the other hand, Kindred only shows killers who are within a certain radius from the hooked guy, since they are camping. That would effectively reduce camping, and I would love that.
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If you have a problem with NOED you are bad and should learn to play
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No, pal, it is the other way around, actually. Killers who need to bring NOED in order to achieve something they could not do for the whole duration of the match are not only bad but should go back to another kid's effortless game, like Fortnite. Enough of NOED advocates, NOED doesn't mean you are good, you are just as bad as any survivor picking DS is. Though the ideas you posted before aren't that bad. Means you have SOME sense right there. Just not that much to understand how pathetic NOED is. Oh, and by the way, I am only one. There have been times when I cleansed 4/5 totems, others when I could cleanse NOED right when it popped. Doesn't make it any good of a perk anyway. Other survivors just seem not to care about totems, not even now. We're done here. Sayonara.
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No, you are definitely bad at the game and need to learn how to do totems
NOED is fine
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As you wish, folk, we'll keep thinking differently. Only one of is right though, and you are not that one. The fact alone you are defending NOED already speaks for itself. Have fun being bad, friend ;)
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Baseline Kindred is definitely NOT too powerful and it reinforces all the ideas they have with game design. It fights camping and encourages people to play together. I'd even settle for a weaker version as long as the killer's aura is shown at 16m or lower.
A totem counter is also not too powerful if they increase the number of totems, which they should do imo. 8 would be fine.
I believe they're overthinking this. They just need to give solos more info. That's all. I don't think it's that hard to do.
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And NOED is both bad design AND a bad perk can't believe we're having this debate in 2019
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I can't belive people are defending NOED either, its just a bad perk overall.
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No NOED has great design
Yes NOED is bad
Survivors should not be able to get away with not countering a perk that does literally nothing until the end and is trivial to counter. NOED should be buffed massively
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Great design pff
A perk that only kicks in after you failed isn't great design bud
I hate late game builds. Sure, let's not learn fundamentals or to apply pressure and get rewarded in the late game. It HAS to be kept weak to be healthy.
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A perk that only kicks in after you failed isn't great design bud
Maybe survivors should fail less and actually do totems then
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