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What would raise the skill-ceiling/floor?
Background:
There is a general consensus, though vaguely-defined, that among other changes most killers should be brought into line with the more-favoured ones. Disregarding some of the equivocations given(that 'not all killers are meant to be good' as stated on a livestream), there needs to be some idea of how this should happen.
I will leave aside related-topics such as possible future Nurse changes; there is going to be much more debate on this as we get closer to the unknown date when that will actually happen. One thing to touch on though is that the Nurse establishes something which the strongest killers all share: they are the most unique and all have a higher skill-ceiling and/or floor. They require more effort and practice, but proportionately give more for the return-on-investment than other killers do. For clarity, these killers are; Nurse, Hag, Spirit, Billy and Huntress.
The Issues:
The devs have a tendency to 'solve' problems by introducing or changing perks, or new characters rather than impementing solutions as core game features. Whilst there might be a strong taste for skill-based perks and some disdain for perks that are 'free-benefits', that should be held as a separate discussion.
We don't just simply need future killers to require more skill in return for more power, some existing ones need bringing up to date along those lines. This is in conjunction with some of them having QoL issues that need addressing, either separately or as part of any future 'up-skilling' revamp. Like the existing high-skill killers, they also need their skill-requirements to be expressed in a unique way. Aiming a blink is not the same as aiming a hatchet or a chainsaw-sprint or a phasing-ambush.
So, do you have a specific character you enjoy but just wish they had a bit more 'oomphf' at the cost of requiring more effort from you? How would you make it work?
Answers
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I'll kick-off by talking about the ultimate 'M1 killer', Myers.
Typically labelled as a 'stealth' killer owing almost purely to a small TR in Evil Within 1, he currently seems to have three variable playstyles: 1) Butt-surprise Myers, 2) Ultimate evil Myers and 3) Classic Myers.
1) Stays in EW1 and tries to focus on grabbing unwary people off gens. Generally considered a meme-build.
2) Always involves extending the duration of EW3, sometimes combining this with Judith's Tombstone to mori survivors. Also considered a meme-build.
3) This is his vanilla and generally what survivors expect to be up against when they find out they're against Myers.
Out of all these though, only 1) is an overt stealth-based playstyle. It definitely takes some skill, but once survivors are on to it then it becomes very unlikely to catch them. Myers has to revert to a classic playstyle then. The problem is though: he can't, he's stuck in EW1 if he uses Scratched Mirror.
There is a skill of sorts to managing and building EW, with it basically rewarding you for how close you can stay to a survivor, which becomes harder to do once you are up to EW2 and the TR has extended.
Proposal:
He should be re-designed around the meme-builds, but not as straight choice between the two(though addons can still allow that). Get rid of EW2 and have just two tiers of Evil Within: the stealth one and the M1 rampage. It's tempting to suggest Myers get more direct chase-utility; all the high skill-ceiling killers have that, but he'd lose some uniqueness. The limit on EW points that can be absorbed from survivors should also be either raised or removed.
The goal is that now the killer has access to the two most useful stances, without the dividing-middle; in return for having to manage the challenges of both. The only benefits of EW2 are that it's not EW1 and gives access to EW3. If Myers only had EW2, he'd just be a Trapper without traps and a smaller TR. It's a stop-gap and a fall-back, so get rid of it.
Let me know your thoughts.
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So about the Myers example: Do I get that right? Basically your idea is that we could remove Evil Within 2. So Myers goes from his stealth mode EW1 directly into his onehit mode EW3? And when he runs out of EW3 (if no unlimited EW3), he goes back to EW1?
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It's one possibility. I can not actually think of any point to EW2: it exists simply to not have the drawbacks or benefits of the other tiers. This makes it completely antithetical to the concept of a higher skill-ceiling and skill-floor, with strength in proportion to that.
One alternative would be that instead of removing EW2, make it do something other than being 'not EW1/EW3'. I didn't suggest that because I haven't yet been able to imagine what that could be.
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I wish I saw this first so I could post it here instead of making a separate thread lol I made a Clown add-on or maybe it can be an ability change all together. I agree, there IS away of changing Killer abilities and making them stronger without changing them completely, add-ons are one way to do it but it doesn't have to be.
Here's a link to my thread with a Clown change I mentioned.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/80728/clown-add-on-buff#latest
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Just to check I understand it, I'll summarise your suggestion.
- It's an addon called 'Heavy Sedative'
- It causes his power to apply a debuff called 'Sleep Transition'
- ST is similar to Deep Wounds but without mending
- Instead a survivor needs to wake-up from it like Freddy's dream-state
- ST will not count-down while a survivor is within Clown's TR
- When it does count-down, the survivor falls asleep on the floor until they recover or are woken. Recovery resets the timer.
Your suggestion is intended to be a straight buff, limited to a single new addon. There has been concern from people that Clown has been lacking as a killer. To me he's maybe even over-shadowed by new-Freddy who has a very similar active ability(on top of all his others!), that slows vulnerable sleeping survivors temporarily and can be used while moving full-speed but doesn't have a reload.
Clown's 'meh-ness' can be marginally justified because he can reload anywhere, unlike Huntress or Trapper who must collect their ammo. In the PTB his move-speed decrease whilst charging a throw was removed so he could throw without slowing-down(like the Huntress does), instead of making his actual ability more powerful. I personally do not like the direction he was taken, frankly because I do think all killers should be harder to use, harder to master and consequentially more powerful in return.
I don't think direct addon changes are the way to go, at least for most of them. Instead addon changes should support core mechanical changes that require more investment from the players but offer better results.
I'll have a think about Clown.
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I was originally going to make the thread about changing his ability do this instead of it being an add-on but decided it would change him too much. We would lose the Clown we have in favor of a Freddy type Clown which is not the way to go.
His biggest problem is map pressure and that despite being an anti looper pallets are still a problem for him. He's good 1v1 but not 1v4 and his base power is the problem. He has nothing in his kit to help him spread out the pressure and that was some of the inspiration which produced the add-on.
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I like this. I like this a lot. Personally I'd pump up his E3 TR a little more than just base killer TR. Maybe 40ish so that he has an imposing presence (opposite to his almost non existent TR in E1) This would make for extremely interesting and terrifying builds. I'd also return collision when stalking. The reason it's missing presently is because he can chase a survivor normally and body block for the stalk. If you get bodyblocked by a killer as slow as E1 Myers then you deserve what's coming.
The main downside I can see to this though is that his travel time will always be terrible. He won't be able to properly defend the map due to the fact that he can't really traverse it without that middle tier. He'd become a fairly defensive killer like Huntress and Hag. Taking a small portion of the map and making that his domain.
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Legion, Wraith, and Plague need some attention.
Legion: Self evident, but this is probably the weakest killer in the game. That's a shame, because I'd love to play them more. If their frenzy could down people if played well, then that might make them more enjoyable. Like you have to hit them 4 times in frenzy to down, but you have to time your swings, and getting pulled out of frenzy or losing the survivor mid chase would stop you. Something to make going in Frenzy worth it. Frenzy should last until you down a survivor or cancel it. It should be able to swing multiple times, since it's a frenzy.
Deep Wounds needs to be removed from Legion. The Devs balance their kit around it, making the other parts of the kit weaker in kind. Replace it with a marker, like the DBD logo so that survivors and the killer can tell how many more times legion has to stab them in Frenzy before they go down.
Wraith: This guy is so weak... it's laughable. Invis that survivors can see coming from a mile away. Changes I'd make:
- Make his invis worth it. Make it so survivors can't see the shimmer outside his normal TR distance.
- Give him an attack from invis, something that's meant to be a surprise. It would have a way longer cooldown, but it would give survivors a reason to look for the shimmer instead of waiting for the warning bell.
Those are the only things I'd think of at the moment.
Plague: Being broken just isn't enough. They have to have an amount of time before it makes things even worse. Make it so they have to cleanse in 2 minutes after being broken, otherwise risk suffering from Dying status. This timer resets when healed back to injured by another survivor. This would give Plague corrupt purge eventually, allowing her to use half of her kit that's usually denied at higher rank play (people don't cleanse at high ranks).
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Legion and Plague suffer from a similar root cause of their problems: they have been designed with survivors in mind, rather than how they play for the killer. They are part of something I touched on at the start: the devs trying to solve problems with options like perks and new characters rather than core game tweaks.
The Pig is the same, along with Legion and Plague; a main-power meant to slow down matches and give survivors something else to do other than gens, rather than actually present a threat. So Pig's RBTs are rarely lethal, Legion's Deep Wound is removed quickly and Plague's affliction doesn't even need removing.
Compare and contrast Billy, with an insta-down skill-shot ability that can take him across the map in seconds. Beautifully simple. By comparison the other killers mentioned here have convoluted powers with unintuitive rules.
I'm not aiming for a list of buffs we think are necessary in this thread though; but debate on what currently limits killers unnecessarily and which can be restricted instead by higher skill-requirements. I for one am full of bad ideas and don't want a single one making it into the game, but alone I'm not able to determine what is a bad idea.
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They still need some attention, because they suffer when they don't need to.
Well, then. Jungle gyms need some nerfs (I for one, do not find them fun to loop because it's just a pain), as well as some survivor meta perks. (Adrenaline being the biggest issue).
Totem placements on most maps.
Haddonfield needs to be removed until it is properly balanced.
A secondary objective needs to be added, such as stopping natural entity corruption, or something. Totems don't really count.
A lot of perks need buffs on both sides so that the Meta isn't the only selection that matters.
The list could go on, but these are the biggest issues in my mind.
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@DudeDelicious What did you think about my Clown buff idea?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/80728/clown-add-on-buff#latest
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I keep trying to make a post about the Legion. Each time I write a few hundred words and the post is terrible.
Just like the Legion.
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I'll flesh this out later.
Proposal:
Legion's Feral Frenzy is no longer about applying Deep Wounds to as many survivors are possible, in order that they spend time mending it; because it wastes Legion's time more than the survivors and a killer's time is more valuable. It's conceptually flawed.
Instead Feral Frenzy allows Legion to perform a grab rather than melee at any time during it's duration. Because the Legion is just a normal human, they will struggle with the survivor. Both players will have to make alternate skill-checks rapidly that get progressively more difficult and can not be affected by perks. The first to make a mistake, loses.
If the Legion loses, they are fatigued and Frenzy goes on cooldown. If the survivor loses, the Legion finishes grabbing them as normal and can take them to a hook.
The Legion is human: other survivors can interact to help. If the tackled survivor fails a skill-check while another survivor is helping them, the helper can make a more difficult skill-check but only if they are uninjured. Successfully helping someone will make the helper injured.
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Ok, an adjustment I would make to the above is that helping someone in a Frenzy struggle wouldn't garauntee the helping survivor gets injured; unless they withdraw from the interaction, they fail one of their own skill-checks or the struggle is won by the Legion.
The principle of replacing Frenzy as a debuff-application with a QTE struggle is that the killer's ability to do it is being directly tested against the survivors. The Legion are closer to survivors than any other killers are; an ability that reflects survivor mechanics fits the theme and provides a skill-based ability with a decent reward from it.
I think I have an idea for the Plague, making her power more skill-based.
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Reduced speed on either side
*Redacted
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