For the 1 millionth time - please balance Ruin FFS
Nearly 3 years we've had to ensure the scourge that is Ruin. Its the number 1 killer perk by a mile and it's the single biggest contributor to any killer win or loss. Its RNG based and it heavily punishes solo queue players over SWF. There's no easy way around it. As a solo player, you either put up with it and watch as no gens get done and you lose. Or you run around the map, possibly never finding it.
I play both sides. 1700 hours on PC alone. And i'm so tired of still, in 2019, having this unbalanced piece of crap perk in the game. Why not a) bring out a perk that reveals the nearest totem to you after each time a totem is cleansed. At least that way you probably wont go a whole match with it up.
OR find a way to limit it's maximum power. It could affect everyone up to 10 skill checks. OR it could be on a timer. Look at every other delay perk. Lets analyse them:
Thanataphobia - skill based. Rewards a killer for injuring but not necesarily hooking survivors. Not guaranteed to work if survivors do well. Not affected by SWF/Solo.
Pop Goes the Weasel - skill based. Rewards killer for hooking many players and takes some time and planning to use. Not guaranteed to work if survivors do well. Not affected by SWF/Solo.
Corrupt Intervention - Guaranteed to work. Limited in what it can do. Not affected by SWF/Solo or luck.
Ruin - RNG based. Could last 20 seconds or all game. Could provide many, many skill checks or barely any. Could be in an easy to find place, or a ridiculously hard one. Could lose you the game or could win you the game. Heavily favours SWF over solos, as coordinated strategies/sharing of the location once found can be done.
So please, from a life long DBD player and fan - please find a way to limit its strengths and reduce its weaknesses. You'll never make this a competitive game as long as your best perk has huge RNG.
Comments
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Trapper: Maybe you do bones next time ! Eheh
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i mean, the reason so many killers run it is because a lot of the worse killers rely on it at the higher ranks, killers that lack pressure need that extra edge in order to maintain the length of the match and ruin is the best way to do that. I would say its balanced, but it might need to be changed so it lasts longer on average if anything.
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No.
/thread
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People doing totems instead of just powering through generators is the only reason Ruin even works.
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I think it's fine. Weaker killers rely on that perk quite a bit since they can't apply enough map pressure and down survivors at the same time. I personaly haven't had much of an issue with that perk when playing solo survivor. It's quite rng based but there's a lot in this game that's rng based.
Also, the only times swf have an advantage over solos is if someone finds the totem but can't cleanse it because the killer is chasing them. I wouldn't say it favors swf that much.
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I don't know why people even complain, to me, Ruin adds fun variety to the gameplay. Sometimes, you have a second objective you have to do, and in exchange, once it's completed, the killer's less powerful. Sometimes you don't, and the killer has an extra perk. I don't want every game to be the same (and, though it's quite common at higher ranks, it's never universal).
Playing 'find the totem' is generally more fun than just sitting on a generator anyway (particularly when Ruin is in play, which is why I rarely bother to 'power through'... I can, it's just boring).
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I fully agree. If anything I'm happy to see a killer use Ruin. Having to hit great skill checks also adds a nice challenge to repairing generators.
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After 1 milion topics do somthing with gen times aka genrush devs.
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As a survivor main only problem i see with ruin is that i can spawn on top of it and cleanse it in first 20s of the game, which shouldn't really be a thing.
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Well this is a neat lil copypasta now, right in the same vein as the Navy Seal rant in terms of cluelessness and ridiculousness.
Ruin is balanced. The biggest problem is survivors finding it too quick.
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I agree that Ruin is very annoying to deal with because of RNG, but the catch it that it is a Hex perk, and Hexes can be destroyed. Other than fixing totem spots Ruin is in the spot it needs to be. And also, there is a perk that allows you to see totems in the game, it’s called Detective’s Hunch. Perhaps buffing other generator/regression related killer perks will actually solve the problem? Thanatophobia is a prime example of this, as its attributes are very underwhelming, and only really serve as a psychological rather than a progression effect. Or maybe we could buff certain survivor items like maps, because even though they are classified as rare, they are pretty add-on reliant, and I’m pretty positive that everybody here can see a generator within 8 meters without using a map. Maybe fix it so the numbers are buffed and can also track totems as well.
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Solo only survivor and I think no gens being done is on all survivors. Let the less skilled players hunt the totem and just do gens, if everyone else dies atleast you got some points and maybe pip to a point where teammates don't scatter like roaches when they see ruin.
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Ruins biggest issue is being instantly found. Otherwise it's high risk high reward.
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Thanks guys, but i dont need anyone to tell me im wrong thanks. You dont play 1700 hours on PC since 2016, 300 on xbox since and not know what youre talking about.
I get it, some people find it fun to face against.
Some people dont begrudge weak killers having the edge.
But what no one has refuted is the enormous amount of RNG involved with this perk - which in no way rewards skill. Its a roll of the dice. I get that casual players might like that. But i dont like winning or losing based on luck.
Finally, swf do have a big advantage. They know whether they can handle the skill checks or not. They know whether everyone is going to just check their nearby area. So many times, i see another survivor running the same direction as me, over the same area, which is clearly a complete waste of time.
So look guys, i've been right on so many things getting changed. For every weak or OP perk, there's been people like you who defend it. But the devs arent stupid. If they check their stats, they'll see that even if overall the results end up balanced, if they look closer, theyll see the final outcome is totally linked to the survival of Ruin. Less than 1m, 3 or 4 will survive. Over 3m - easy 4k. I charted the stats once in my own games and it was conclusive.
Every single perk that was OP or too weak - they have since buffed or nerfed. Bar none. Even SC, BT, DS - they nerfed them all. I don't know why they havent changed Ruin yet, but i'm 90% sure they will eventually. It's far from a top priority. But killers shouldnt have to rely on a luck based perk. Gen times need to be slowed anyway. Without Ruin its an easy win. With it, no amount of skill can get you out the door.
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Just to add to the last message - can we all agree that a match without Ruin is too easy? It is for me anyway against most killers. You smash those gens in no time. Unless its a very skilled killer, 3 gens should be done before they can down me up until the highest ranks. Then you get Ruin and suddenly youre relying on everyone else. If i dont look for Ruin, i swear most of the time no one even finds it. So for that reason, i always look for it. Because the other thing is that no one seems to be able to handle Ruin skill checks.
So basically.. in a match with Ruin, i'm praying for luck all match. Sometimes get it, sometimes dont. How is that a better gameplay experience than using skill every game?
Also from a killer perspective, its horrible that you MUST choose Ruin, or face a very hard game. So yet again - praying as killer for RNG.
No one should be praying to the Entity for luck. No one.
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Thank you, some one gets it.
I remember a time when killer perks were reasonably balanced and survivors had a very clear meta. How times have changed. Survivor meta has never been more diverse and balanced - with genuine counters to all survivors' strongest perks (DS - dont tunnel, BT go for the unhooker). Now killer meta is pretty much set in stone - Ruin, BBQ, NOED and whatever perk suits your killer most. Killers need variety too.
I'm not calling for a pure nerf. Just make it's outcome a little more quantifiable - so that its exact values can more easily be tweaked to give more consistent results.
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When I play survivor, I would much rather face Thanataphobia, Pop goes Weasel and Corruption Invention then Ruin. Those perks take way more skill to use and properly slowdown the game but they don't slow the game enough against better players, though new survivor perks are going to make Thantaphobia really bad. I can hit great skill checks easily, but as solo survivor, I can't really count my team to do that which sucks even in the red ranks/purple ranks. people still fail pretty hard against Ruin. That's a large reason why playing killer feels a lot flipping a coin because Ruin is largely coin-flip for game duration.
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" because Ruin is largely coin-flip for game duration"
Couldn't have put it any better myself. Not even one coin flip, but many:
Will survivors have many skill checks or few?
Will they try to do the skill checks or look for the totem?
Will they find it early or will Ruin last all game?
Does the survivor have the skills (or framerate) to consistently hit the skill checks?
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The problem with Ruin, like so many have stated before is that Survivors can spawn on top of it, making the game immediately 16 perks vs the killer's 3 remaining. I think they shouldn't even have an active totem for the first 3 minutes of the game, but what do I know I only have 3000+ hours on the game, unlike your "1700."
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This.
Plus, playing both sides (Killer and Solo Q) for 2.3 k hours every season at red ranks, no one gives a ######### about ruin. Everyone just works through, even while reading the chat i hit about 80% of the skilchecks. And i guess after releasing the new DLC, survivors r going to cleanse more totems, cause of "Inner Strenght", so RIP Ruin, DH, and NOED.
And:
"But i dont like winning or losing based on luck."
So, what about the RNG with the windows of the bs maps? To u get a farm map with jungle gym into jungle gym into cow tree? The bs window at Suffocation Pit or Rancid? Where chases last forever and a day? Do survivors find a key in a chest to leave via hatch?
The whole game is pure RNG
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Then don’t post on the forums if you’re afraid that people don’t agree with you. On one hand hand you’re saying it’s a necessity for killers to run it, and on the other hand you’re saying games are too easy without it? Rng makes the perk manageable , which means there’s a way to play against it( I.e hitting the skill checks or just plain finding the totem) and like others have said “ high risk high reward”.Ruin is just a temporary in game solution to a massive game mechanical problem, which is genrushing. I’m talking about ranks 4-1 btw where if you don’t have ruin up against coordinated swf groups you’re gonna get steamrolled with insta heals and coms alone.
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Nothing is as RNG as Ruin. As i stated many times now, there's multiple layers of RNG. It can be 3 perks for almost the entire game. Or it can be 100+ difficult skill checks.
As for the nonsense argument about people being so good that the skill checks dont affect you - ummm, yes they do! They affect everyone. If you can hit great skill checks, you would otherwise be getting +5% progression. Instead - 0%.
And its not about you or me. Its about the communty. Every season i go back down to R12-8 somewhere. And the people there cant hit them. If Ruin is up for more than 2 mins, its pretty much curtains. Maybe a good player can take the hatch, if youre lucky.
Again, i'm not personally that bothered. Except when my frame rate is low, then theyre hard to hit. I can hit them usually every time. Its not about me, its the other 3 randoms. How do you know if they can hit them or not? Maybe you power through yours, but no other gens get done. I tried that, and we got screwed by Ruin nearly every time.
Unlike you, ive taken notes on my games, using Marth88's spreadsheet. And i found a massive correlation between Ruin (and how long its up) and escape rate. A perfect correlation infact.
While i appreciate two of you jhave many hours in game, even more than me somehow, despite playing this full time for like a year. But ok, well done. However i was saying that in response to people giving me noob advice like 'just gen tap.' or 'just look for it'. Like i havent faced Ruin literally 2000+ times already?
As for RNG on the maps, it makes a little difference. The game is about adapting to your environment. Scouting out, paying attention. There is none of that with Ruin. Its funny how much people complain about the RNG with pig traps and bear traps - and yet Ruin is far worse. 1 in 6 chance - and they're not even shown to you, unlike Saw machines.
In summary - im not asking for a buff. or a nerf. I'm asking for Ruin to be more consistent. Less luck based. Perhaps a higher minimum impact - and a lower maximum impact. Why is that unreasonable?
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Seems like youve missed my point entirely.
I dont mind people having a different opinion to me. What i dont appreciate is some noob telling me im factually wrong. In my opinion, mushrooms might be delicious. But if you complain about their texture - im not going to say youre wrong, theyre awesome. How can you be wrong if youve eaten mushrooms 2000+ times. Theres a difference between someone suggesting something and you arguing with if it would be better or not. Its another thing to say that someones vast experience with the perk is incorrect.
I could see how insanely strong it was immediately when the Hag chapter released. I immediately got it on every killer as soon as i could. Ive barely dropped it in all these years.
I agree the game is too hard for killers without it. But it can also be useless. And i personally feel the game can do better than that. Every other time waster is directly attached to skill. This is how ridiculous Ruin is:
"Dear Entity - how long will i have to kill survivors this game?"
"This game, you shall have 4 minutes, because Ruin will get found and cleansed almost immediately"
(next game)
"Dear Entity - how long will i have to kill survivors THIS game?"
"Good news killer! Ypu'll have 15 minutes - they won't be able to find it until the 8th minute - its upstairs in a house next to a cupboard"
"Easy 4k it is then :/"
Neither of these sounds good to me. Why do i deserve an easy 4k or a high speed gen rush with 3 perks all match?
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Why the hell do you even start a thread when you can't handle any feedback that doesn't represent your opinion in the first place? I get your point, but some people may think otherwise. Seems a bit weird to get so offended because of that.
I agree that Ruin is a bit too RNG based. But it's not like the outcome of a match solely depends on when Ruin gets destroyed, in my opinion. Hex: Devour Hope is if anything more RNG based, since you either find it fast enough so it becomes useless for the killer, or you don't find it and the killer wrecks you with that perk. And personally I feel like there is a lot of rng that affects the outcome of a match beyond Ruin. Simply just the addons and items a killer or survivor might bring into the match.
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As a survivor main, I personally don't mind ruin. The only thing that annoys me about ruin is when my team mates prefer to look for the totem rather than just working through it. I've played this game since July 2018 and played at red ranks since September 2018, and I've never thought nor had it crossed my mind that ruin needed a nerf.
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No I got your point. But I don’t think making ruin more skill based is the answer. I think it has a lot more to do with game mechanics and the reason why ruin is being run so much. There’s no stopping 4 toolboxes with brand new parts from completing 5 generators within 5 minutes even with ruin. It all goes back to gen completion times and both sides agree on it.
Ruin’s rng is necessary to running the perk. It’s high risk high reward. Any decent group of survivors at high ranks ( from solo to swf) is going to find ruin within 2 minutes tops. So most decent killers don’t even run it.
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If it was actually high risk high reward - why is it every single killer at high ranks runs it? Seems to me its medium risk, very high reward. Otherwise it would be optional.
As for Devour Hope - THAT is high risk high reward. Because theres a decent chance you get absolutely nothing out of it. And a small chance the perk singlehandedly wipes the floor with survivors.
Its my personal belief that all perks should be balanced to the point where there's no meta. I think survivor meta died some time ago - once SC was nerfed and now DS.
Currently Ruin, even if destroyed after 1 minute - is still better than most other perks. Only if its gone inside 30 seconds is it worse than most other perks. If it lasts 2 mins, it's already done far more than any other perk could - and it was pure luck.
I hated it when SB was such a dominant exhaustion perk. I like variety. We have that now. Adrenaline, Lithe, DH, SB, BL - everyone has a favorite and theyre fairly even. I would like gen stopping to also be a close one.
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Learn to power throught it?
The killer literaly is forcing you to learn to hit great skill check consistently, if you've been playing since as long as you claim and keep get matched against people with ruin by now you should be prety decent at hitting great skillcheck unless of course you are one of those guy that drop everything and just spend 10+ minute looking for the totem instead of doing the gens
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Ruin is very strong, that is a fact. Otherwise why has it been THE number 1 perk since it came out. Always been number 1, at most ranks. They used to show it in dev streams'. So any efforts to say its insignificant, its weak, its easy to counter - all nonsense . It can be weak if you get unlucky. Most of the time its a very worthwhile perk - and once in 4 or 5 games it'll be the single biggest contributor to an easy 4k. It's almost like rolling the dice on having a mori. It could be a yellow mori, likely a green mori - but 1 in 5 could be ebony mori and no one stands a chance.
And because of this RNG, no one can say exactly for sure how strong it is, because it fluctuates.
I also object to it because 1) frame rates on console are disguisting. Very hard to hit them. and 2) it punishes low ranks really hard. I actually sabotage myself playing at low ranks by not taking it. Because i know they will have 0 chance to survive. I use it basically rank 8 and up.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
I hope you're aware that BNPs used to do an entire generator instantly! That isn't any kind of conclusive proof to invalidate your point - they could still be strong now. But my god have they been nerfed to hell since then. 4 man swf could literally leave you with 1 gen inside 20 seconds! RIP BNP. I dont even bother with them in the bloodweb. Not worth 7000. Ebony mori on the other hand - while also nerfed, are no where near as bad.
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I mean I still think whether Ruin is fine or not is based on an opinion. Some people don't mind the rng and like having a second objective that is searching for the totem. I think cancer is a bit of a different topic. That's not based on anyone's opinion.
For me personally though Ruin right now is a necessary evil, otherwise games can go way to fast when playing a weaker killer. I don't mind the perk. Of course if there was a way to make it less rng, I wouldn't mind. I really like your idea of having it just be the first 10 skill checks for every survivor and after a survivor had 10 skill checks the skill checks for that survivor return to normal. Something devs could consider in my opinion. But I do not mind the way the perk is right now and it seems like many other don't eiher. Once again some probably like that it kinda adds a second ojective.
I agree that Ruin can have quite an effect on how a match goes. But once again there is enough other rng that can affect a match's outcome, such as addons/items and map rng. I've also seen teams do very well with Ruin up very long because they are good at hitting great skill checks.
If there is one thing I really don't like about Ruin, than it's the fact that it does hurt lower ranks more than higher ranks. At high ranks the perk seems balanced, albeit based somewhat on rng, but on lower ranks this perk can seem a bit overpowered.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Perks like ruin aren't the problem of this game many other issues like keys, genrush, Mori, bugs ,etc. etc. etc. Are the big problems. Ruin is RNG that's right but because it's a totem perk and all totem perks are RNG.
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I agree with you. I think that Ruin should be playable but not as necessary as it is right now. I would like to see something similar to how they handled Brutal Strength back when you couldn't play Killer without it. Back then, they increased the base Pallet Breaking Speed and nerfed Brutal Strength. If we just slow down the vanilla game a bit, that would allow for a Ruin nerf. General progression nerfs could just be an increase to the generators' timers. This would be suboptimal because sitting on generators longer is boring but a strong Ruin spawn amounts to the same thing and at least this way, it would be consistant. For the Ruin nerf, fixing the perk would probably be enough. Keep the perk's description and numbers exactly as they are but remove that infuriating cooldown time for progression after you get a Good Skill Check. Just having the 5% would still encourage going for Great Skill Checks and the perk would probably still be viable but it would get a lot less oppressive. Actually giving regular Blood Points for Good Skill Checks might also discourage survivors from looking for the totem and make it more consistant.
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Thats exactly it! They did it a few times in the game. The base gen time really does need increasing. OR find another, more creative way to slow the game at first. The fact that killers are forced to rely on a lucky perk at the highest ranks is a problem i couldnt allow to stand if i was one of the devs. I can allow truly high risk high reward perks to remain - because theres a high chance they do nothing so wont make it into the meta.
Thanataphobia could do with a buff. Fire It Up needs a buff (an alternative to nerfing gens).
Something i might suggest would be if every gen needs maybe an initial 5-10 seconds warm up. Something that maybe has no skill checks, doesnt make noise and if you stop, it wont show the gen as being worked on. That would both add time to gens, but also allow for the player to hide if the killer came right at them at the start.
I could either envisage Ruin being far harder than it is now, or do more of a regression penalty - but have a limit to what it can do. So you either endure the penalty and wait it out - or quickly search your local area for it.
Another possibility would be if it did -1% progression for every dull totem on the map - so it would start at 5% if you have no other hex perks. But would be only 3% if you also had Haunted Grounds. Or 4% with TotH. And that way, when you go around looking for totems, you could cleanse them instead of running past. Also i'd like to see skill checks being less random when you have Ruin. A guarantee of x number per minute would make it not potentially useless.
AND it would discourage players taking Ruin + Noed.
Because i'll tell you what - Ruin + NOED vs solo queue = 4k. Pretty much every time.
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Yes exactly! It's always bad balance in a game where you feel you should morally weaken yourself because something is OP at certain ranks. I would like to be able to go full tilt at any rank, but below R8-10, ruin plus try harding, even with no tunnel or camp - will probably lead to a 4k. unless theyre swf and/or find ruin early. Ofcourse a game's outcome is decided so much in the first minute. Thats why Ruin is so powerful. If they get 0 gens done in the first 2 mins, compared to 3 gens done, thats a whole different outcome.
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I agree with your very first post. Ruin’s RNG is very unpleasant. I almost never find it until it’s already too late. Even from a Killer’s perspective it’s a crutch. I have had many instances where survivors would IMMEDIATELY DC once they realize that there’s a Ruin.
In one of my games, the Ruin was literally inside of a dark and tall bush with only one entrance in and BARELY seeing the flames glow on it. So here’s my question: WHAT AVERAGE PERSON IS GOING TO FIND THAT?! DX
I agree that it could use a rework. :)
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Thanks my dude. This is what i was hoping for - a discussion about how to improve Ruin. I like the challenge of it. The secondary objective aspect. But it's far from perfect right now. Either too weak or too strong a lot of the time. But on average, it's certainly among the 4 strongest perks - arguably the strongest. Especially if you want to rank up, thanks to it being the one and only perk that boosts the generator emblem.
Can't believe i had to listen to a whole page of posts here saying ' Ruin is fine, Ruin is great, no one has any issues, get good'
I'm sure one day they'll tweak it a little for a more consistent (and less punishing on new players) experience.
My complaints are not usually about what i can handle, but about what 3 other randoms can handle. Especially if they're casuals or new.
And i know killers will feel so much better if they didn't have to run Ruin every game.
Actually, i think the purpose of Ruin SHOULD be to lure survivors into a trap. So when i used to main Hag, i would create a web of traps in the 1/3 of the map where it is and it usually worked. Ruin should have a specific purpose - one that suits campers. Where as a Wraith main should be able to take Thanataphobia instead and be rewarded for that hit and run playstyle.
Its just stupid that people dont even see their Ruin totem. They just take it and dont even bother protecting it. Because on average it'll be useful regardless.
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This is my proposal based on the feedback from you guys:
Ruin version 2.0!
Ruin would be something a killer can apply to any dull totem.
It would have a more consistent numbers of skill checks. (guaranteed one per 7-14 seconds)
Every good skill check does -2% progression for every dull totem on the map.
Every great skill checks does -1% progression for every dull totem on the map.
But its effect lasts for 5 or 10 skill checks, OR until it is cleansed.
Benefits:
+ Killer can ensure its well hidden.
+ Survivors can counter this by observing the killer and checking out where they were before Ruin triggered.
+ Killer can protect their totem better and it can't get cleansed too fast
+ The affects will definitely be felt, but it won't last forever and can be endured for the period it works.
+ Solo survivors won't have to guess whether they should search for the totem or not. Basically if they know where the killer was, they should go look for it. If they havent even seen the killer, just endure it.
+ The increased penalty even to great skill checks means it still affects pros.
+ More consistent skill checks gives it a more consistent affect.
+ Won't stack well with other hex perks, making players choose between Haunted Ground, DH or NOED.
+ Also encourages survivors to begin the match cleansing dull totems, so Ruin will start out weak. This in turn wastes survivor time, even in matches where Ruin is never used!
What do you guys think?
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That sounds nice and different to me!
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I thought this was going to be a post about how Ruin unfairly targets survivors with low framerates. This was not that post. Those other perks are not skill based unless you have a definition that most people don't have. Rewarding good plays is not "skill". What you are saying is like declaring that a perk that helps in breaking the pallet instead of running around it is skill based (i.e. Brutal strength).
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Well, firstly i did mention frame rates a couple of times. The game is still horrendously optimised and even on a 1060 i struggle to get over 50 FPS, on xbox it feels more like 30 some of the time. I know skill checks are on the client side but they are still a nightmare to hit at times.
As for whether a perk is skill based ot not, perhaps i just use the phrase to mean the opposite of RNG based. If Brutal Strength meant every time you broke a pallet, it might take longer, or it might take shorter, its a roll of the dice, then its RNG based. But BS is a consistently useful perk with guaranteed results. But BS is genuinely skill based in the sense that a player can choose to break pallets or not. Maybe i run BS and i shape my playstyle to maximise shredding pallets?
In the same way, Pop Goes the Weasel is skill based in that 1) i have to down and hook a lot of survivors to get a lot of use out of it. and 2) i have to carefully select my targets, the hooks i take them to and the gens i kick. For example if i chase someone who just finished a gen in the corner of the map, that is low skill if you have Pop. If i leave them and run on to find a gen that is 90% complete and i am able to down them close by, hook and kick the gen - thats rewarding my skill.
Thanataphobia is also skill based, in that if i simply tunnel one player, i'm showing low skill and being punished for it. If i tailor my play style to injure 4 at a time, i'm being rewarded for that.
Ruin SHOULD reward killers who guard their totem well. It should be something that either lures people in and you ambush them. OR you guard your totem and everyone just ignores it and you lose for that reason.
But what happens is most killers treat Ruin like the perk that calls the entity to block gens. Just take it and forget about it. Which IS 100% luck based then. No skill or thought or planning from the killer. Just pray to the RNG gods. Bad devs.
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