The best concept for Legion to make his power work and fix his problems
This isn't a very complex and detailed concept, it's more just a general idea that the devs should follow if they want to fix Legion imo.
He should be reverted to a 4.4 killer with a 24 meter terror radius and be reliant on his power, so he has a very special and unique kit, like spirit, nurse, hag and huntress. And myers at some point.
So, in my opinion devs should take these steps:
- Fix Deep wounds. How?
Well, the bar doesn't go down when inside a 24 meter fixed radius from the killer. Survivors can't do the same actions while experiencing Deep Wounds that they can't do when in madness 3.
- The power should have fixed effects/stats and then those effects are improved or changed to a better way when they hit a survivor that is not deep wounded.
Ex: The power lasts 6 seconds by default. When hitting someone that doesn't have deep wounds, refills the power gauge and it drains at half speed and Legion sprints even faster, activates killer instinct,etc. This is just an example ofc.
A good example of this is the old Iridescent Button, that had an effect that got triggered exactly the way these should.
This brings more counterplay in chases and makes spreading hits more easy and viable.
- Reduce the lunge duration while in Feral Frenzy to 0.3 seconds (from 0.5). Keep the cooldown reduction when you miss a hit.
This keeps the feeling of a frenzy and doesn't make you win nothing but simply for what it was made for: make hits almost guaranteed when you are right above the survivor.
- The power should be lethal. He should be reliable on his power to conserve uniqueness. Make the power more able to down survivors FASTER (not easier) but bring the corresponding counterplay.
This comes along with the past change that I mentioned. His power is different to down someone and to spread hits. This killer has potential, but needs the right numbers so he doesn't stand on the edge of being too OP or weak with the slightest change.
- His power should be dynamic, meaning that it can be activated when the bar is NOT FULL.
This makes the main part of his kit be more easy to use and it's the player that needs to choose when to use it, increasing the skill cap.
- Make his power to have sinergy with already injured survivors that do not have deep wounds and exposed.
Ex: The deep wound bar has 30 seconds by default, with a hit with FF reducing it by 10 seconds. An exposed or already injured survivor starts with only 20 seconds.
- After all these steps, Add-ons should be reevaluated to make them fair or good. The new pin add-ons with being activated in 1 hit seem really good.
Basically, everything is on the dev's hand. The effects, the numbers, the mechanics is 100% up to them, but I think this is the way to proceed to fix Legion.
Share your thoughts with this.
Comments
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I made a post about a Legion fix too and yours is pretty simular then mine. Thats what I am talking about, the most ppl talk about "just buff frenzy" but thats not it, Legion has now the problem that you have NO power to down survivors. The old Legion type with stabbing was completly fine and unique and new to play against. You can add counterplay but when you miss the hit the frenzy depletes, they can keep that in the kit for my opinion.
But overall I agree with you and I really wish that could be happen, I miss Legion and I want to main Legion again, but not with the current Legion ;C.
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I share the same thoughts about Legion with you.
I just think that the missing hit penalty removes the part that it is a frenzy. Also, isn't very reliable because of lag, hitboxes and autoaim.
I've seen someone show a counterplay idea that is that Legion has medium and fast vaults like survivors. Seemed pretty cool and interesting.
As Legion is now, he is sluggish, very slow and the opposite of unique. Has no chase potential and the chaining hits potential is really bad, not worse than before, but still really bad.
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Yeah true, agree, but I assume the devs are not gonna do something like that, because for some reason survivors mean he has "no counterplay at all" and is bad for the game, I personally dont agree with that and its not because of I was a Legion main. Even my best friend with over 2k hours that is survivor main says that Legion was besides the exploit and franks mixtape fine and fun, he misses him.
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Exactly, I see some people in the forums saying that not all survivors think Legion was badly designed, which I agree because I loved to play against him.
Either way, I don't have a biased opinion, I know that nurse with add-ons isn't fine and her base kit can be discussibly fine, Iri head isn't fine, old franks mixtape was really not fine, prayer beads should swap rarity with mother-daughter ring, no unhooks hag is the thing that has less counterplay in this game,etc. And I found Legion fun to play against and VERY VERY fun to play as.
But Legion just got detroyed because people didn't give him time to learn to play against. He got completely destroyed literally 2 patches after he got released. He was never good in the first place.
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this seems like putting him back where he was before. Mending and frenzy is really hard to balance... he needs a full rework
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This is a general idea. Devs are the ones making the counterplay in chases.
No, it has nothing to do with old legion.
Old legion could do 2 exploits: moonwalking and spamming hits to go further. Had no chaining hits potential and was only "good" at tunneling. He could down you no mather what (you can do it with every killer, but that is another topic). And Frank's mixtape.
Resulting in a weak, unfun killer. Now, that way that I propose to change gim takes away all the negative and unfun aspects of him.
He doesn't need a complete rework, devs just didn't have the better mindset when they desgined him and updated him. They 2 mindsets that they had resulted in an exploited and weak killer and in a unfun and even more weak killer.
It must stay clear that what I'm saying here is the concept/mindset, not the actual changes or values.
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But how can this ability help him get downs? Did you say because I dont understand that part which is just classic legion cant do shid
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I didn't understand your question that well, but what i think you said is "How can you down someone with Feral Frenzy?" then I didn't understand the other part.
You can make his power down someone by simply hitting someone while in feral frenzy multiple times reducing their timer to 0. Old Legion worked like that, but the problem was that he had no counterplay because he vaulted every survivor's defenses.
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so are you saying he wouldnt be able to vault?
The main issues I have with this is:
- Legion has little map pressure at all like this. He would be super slow and then have the speed for 6 seconds until he hits and it makes it longer. But the 6 seconds thing is too short I feel like. You would have to be right behind them or very close to hit that.
- He is still able to down survivors with it making him good at tunneling...
- What is the counterplay? Because it seems like its just lesser of counterplay than the existing one which really isnt even counterplay. Its usually just the games fault or killers for missing, the the survivors for doing a good maneuver because as legion you have to be super close to land the hit. Unless the legion is super bad he shouldnt really be missing hits at all. The existing one hit miss is better than a continual miss depleting the bar.
I myself have a legion COMPLETE REWORK bc legion sucks and I really thought it through if you want me to link it for inspiration. There is only one part of my own i am conflicted on. Mending and Frenzy sucks ass me bruv. It just needs to be replaced or changed completely.
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I already said that the numbers are examples, all of that is up to the devs. They change it to whatever they want
I didn't say that he couldn't vault, because by taking it out, they are taking his identity out. But i think that they should implement the medium and fast vault on them, pretty much like a survivor. Again, they can change it however they want.
You're completely missing the point from this discussion. This discussion is a concept to change his power. It remains to be Feral Frenzy with the same general idea but it has counterplay and can actually be good at spreading hits.
The counterplay is a mechanic introduced by the devs. They can make it so that missing a hit ends the power, or legion medium vaults, or another thing that THEY want to input.
6 seconds was pre-patch legion's time. The movement speed should be something balanced. Again, it is up to the devs to see the exact values.
ALL the effects and examples that I stated above are purely EXAMPLES, just so people understand what I mean.
At this point I'm just repeating myself.
Link the post, now I'm curious about what you did.
Anyways, read the entire post so you can really understand the purpose of it.
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he deserves a buff,not power rework IMO,deep wounds were never meant to be a giant threat,just a slowdown tool to force survivor to mend and waste their time,problem is:
- his movement speed is not enough to catch up people(5.0m/s is not fine)
- the cooldown of 4 seconds is ridiculous and makes walking without FF more effective than uing FF,also not counting the fact that u get half blinded during the ridiculous cooldown
- vault speeds were an undeserved nerf,it just removes the fast going killer of his running and hitting everyone style feeling,not stating that pallets vault is so slow that makes unsafe pallets almost safe during FF,it just makes legion more reliant on bamboozle(increased vault speeds,fire up only affects windows)
- so you are punished for missing with your power that isn't that great already?that just makes no balance sense,you are using your power with risks of failing in using but u are punished for even using it?thats another ridiculous thing about the current legion.
- what happened to old killer instinct?it was better not i just get half blind in corn fields and fully blind at FF cooldown
- 20 seconds recharge time?only usable at full bar? so i get punished heavily for using a power that was supposd to benefit me but instead just makes it an eventual happening as most survivors are very far away,and the fact that i get also genrushed for trying to use my power?ridiculous. 20 seconds is like 25% of a gens progress,making FF only usable at full bar just depletes his ability to use FF to travel the map faster,even tho 5.0m/s(125%) isn't that great of a speed since wraith is faster when cloaked.
Now that just makes legion worse than wraith for not being able to get much benefit from a power that punishes heavily if you don't make it to use it correctly aka missing an attack,survivors too far away,not being able to catch up in time,even tho 10s duration seems pretty long it isn't for a 5.0m/s killer to catch up a survivor far away not stating the fact that exhaustion perks that boosts ur speed outruns legion completely(with his current cooldown,walkign ith 4.6m/s catches up faster than a 5.0m/s with 10s duration power with a 4s cooldown
legion is another case of overnerfed killer,0 thought was given to legions power in his rework,his power benefits simply don't reward much for a power that heavily punishes if u fail to use it when certain common conditions are met
overnerfed and hard killer for now,but that doesn't mean u can't do great with him and get good 4ks while playing him,but still hard,actually glad that i heard they are in the early process of reworking him again,so my hopes are up for him to be actually viable and not have easy cheese mechanics like pre-patch legion,as a fellow legion main,the moonwalks were pretty boring and unfun,devs,if u are seeing this,its not smart to overnerf an killer to then buff it later,the most opinions that count are first impression ones,we will never forget when killers get in a freddyV1.0 like state like this
for now,all we can do is sit here and wait for devs to finally announce their return from the entity's recovering power room to become strong again,this was the list of most problems he has
"Legion had no counterplay,thats why they rework him",most pathetic words i had heard from a excuse from survivors to get him overnerfed not only because of cheese mechanics (they are a good excuse)but because the fact they found him annoying to face as so they took advantage of that to get him overnerfed,not stating they are still trying to get new freddy boi to get nerfed aswell,hope he doesn't.
if you doubt legion had no counterplay in the beginning,you are incredibly wrong
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I want an add on for him that deep wound goes down super slow in a chase, but it gets extended
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Idk what that has to do with my post. Nobody mentioned new Legion here. But I'll tell my opinion on Legion.
New Legion is just weak and VERY VERY boring. Old Legion had counterplay (I'm a guy that already said a lot of ways to counterplay the old one) but was really weak at spreading hits. I also think that old Legion was fun to play against, but idk why devs let themselves be emerged on the nerf threads about Legion. Only franks mixtape and exploits were a problem for the survivors.
For him, the problems were that he took too long to down a survivor and he had a really bad time to chain hits.
Now, with this concept, Legion has a good chase and makes him spreading hits more faster. Either way, I think that the speed and the chase mechanics should be maintained, and the other parts buffed.
The problem is that the devs don't agree with it because they changed Legion following the nerf criers.
Either way I don't get the point of your comment in this discussion.
The general idea is a Legion created from scratch with the same objectives as when the pre-patch legion came out.
EDIT: I've seen that video more than 10 times.
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Add-on dependant and broken i think.
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Legion had some counter play it's just that they were super annoying with franks mixtape, moonwalking with bloodhound, and etc, plus people abused the fact that if you continuously kept swinging in FF you'll get across the map much quicker which made no since at all. So the main issue is that they pretty much guaranteed a down and they had multiple swings so 360's and dead hard weren't the biggest types of counter play.
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Overall legion could use some buffs though like giving him his speed back since you can get looped at unsafe pallets and spreading deep wounds can be an issue from not having enough speed to get to the other person so it'll be good to have like 5.4 ms in FF. Also it'll be nice to make the FF cooldown 15 sec again since the power isn't even super strong unlike spirit were hers is 15 sec and she can literally win chases just with that her power. Plus they should either buff the FF fatigue cooldown add ons or just buff the base fatigue cooldown since if they buff both it'll be a bit dirty to deal with since they have 4.6 ms now because if you look at old legion with the reduced fatigue and the fatigue reducing add ons it was a bit silly how fast they got out of it. Finally they should give their multiple swings backs but just make each missed swing take out like 50% of the meter or they can make it so that if you miss a swing you don't lose your whole meter probably just 25% of it.
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His ability as a whole just needs to be changed because it's nothing but annoying. The devs put him in a place where he wasn't annoying nor good at all. They did this because:
- Its better to have a bad killer that isn't annoying vs a bad/decent killer that is annoying.
- They put him in a position so that they could rework him because it is difficult to balance that ability. Like seriously he can totally ignore all survivor defenses and get hits. The hits do hardly anything. If you give frenzy the ability to down with frenzy then it's annoying asf. If you make mending longer or slow the game more efficiently then he still sucks because he cant use the ability to down. If you add the slow vault/med/and fast vaults then he is basically the same (although i like that idea alot) His base ability just shouldnt have came into the game the way it did.
Im sure they are just going to change the whole ability...
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Nuff said...
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All killers should be annoying to play against. After all, they are killers and you are a survivor. Freddy's pallets are annoying, tier 3 myers one shoting you is annoying, hag's traps are annoying.
In my opinion, that isn't a valid point. Just like "It takes time, but he could down you no mather what". Well yeah, like every other killer with bloodlust tier 3. At some time you will go down because they have 130% movement speed, windows blocked, some pallets were down.
The only problem was that he wasn't strong, the exploits, frank's mixtape, the no interaction with already injured/exposed survivors and he couldn't hit multiple survivors effectively. Which all could be solved without destroying him like they did.
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Forgot to say that the Legion that I mentioned in this post will be much easier to balance, because changing something about the chase wont affect the spreading hits part. And vice-versa.
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Legion and ghostface nerfs were very similar all it needed was an addon tweak the they went overboard. Well ghostfaces issue was stupid survivors not realizing it was the addon making it hard to reveal him doing what it was supposed to do.
biggest thing that aggravates me is why the hell does he lose power on successful hit. That alone could make a huge difference not penalize a killer by doing what they are supposed to. Legion was an issue to begin with they made the changes to the pallets about a year ago then released legion, a fast killer that can vault pallets they panicked and for lack of better words fuct up. Then they make demo 3 trash perks compared to at least 2 of 6 that are slowly becoming meta.
theres a pattern look at all the killer nerfs and look at the buffs or added perks during the same that were changed for survivors.
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I don't believe that they overall buffed survivors. I feel the opposite.
But I agree with the killer nerfs being rushed and badly done. I didn't know about that change to gf, I thought they made it because it was difficult to put him out of stealth. That hit thing is stupid, just like legion losing the power by missing a hit.
In both cases they made a rushed action. Legion was released on patch 2.5.0 and devs completely changed him at 2.7.0.
2 damn patches, it doesn't make any sense. Most of the people that said the old legion without add-ons was unfun and/or OP were influenced by streamers that said that. Some of those streamers don't even know how to counter loops.
Now the demogorgon perks are interesting, but 1 completely useless, 1 VERY situational and even in those situations isn't that good and surge that is mid tier. I just don't see how they make these perks thinking that they will be useful.
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So you would prefer old legion over new legion?
If killers were annoying then people wouldnt have fun in chases. People wouldnt quit working gens to go get chased FOR FUN.
There are certain things about killers that make you say "damn" but it shouldnt be to the point where you are complaining about all killers being op or something.
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You, as a survivor, should avoid chases, not search them. If the game got to that point, then it is a bad desgin. Because there should be more fun things other than chase, because is what you must avoid.
The secondary objective is really required not only because gens go too fast if you know how to play, but mainly because doing gens isn't fun. This is not killer related, but instead a game design flaw. You shouldn't mix both.
To answer your question, I prefer a new Legion (not the post patch) created from the OLD one.
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Isn’t that what happens anyway?
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wdym
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I am addressing your point that all killers should be annoying. In which they shouldnt. Just strong (top tier preferably)
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I don't know why but I always had the idea that Legion should be 4.0m/s because they look and act like Survivors. Give them 20m TR. But then let them have their frenzy (5.4m/s for 6s) with insta down. No deep wounds, power use even if the gauge is not full (like before), but kick them out of Frenzy and deplete the bar when they miss. No scratchmarks or blood when in Frenzy without add-ons.
Edit: and of cause no killer instinct.
That's my idea. Numbers could vary though.
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Annoyiance is subjective because what is annoying to you doesn't need to be annoying for me and a lot of people thought legion was fun to play against. Either way, all killers should be somehow annoying, mixed up with being strong.
Like, spirit is annoying to play against for me because I don't like guessing games. I like to actually have a plan according to what the killer is doing. In case of spirit in a chase, her power makes her 90% unpredictable and makes you just guessing - it's coinflip.
I don't mind mending and try to make Legion not hit me with their power. Now I just make them miss by running to them and then crouching (autoaim sucks), but before it was really cool to make chases take as long as possible. Frank's mixtape was impossible to take that much time tho.
My point is that these things are and aren't annoying to me, respectively, and for you it can be the opposite. Legion just needed a fix mixed up with some buffs that don't make him impossible to play against (which he wasn't, with the exception of exploits and Frank's mixtape), that can be done without what they did to him.
I think that this way to put him is the better way to have a mix between power, not being annoying and being easier to balance. His power was on edge of too OP or too weak.
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I think that a killer (except nurse) should have more movement speed than a survivor, like 4.2 or something. Because with nurse, you don't have a power gauge and you cover large distances in a matter of 2 seconds.
The problem is that with Legion you are always fatiguing walking roughly the same as blinking but you take 3 times the time you take with nurse.
It wouldn't make sense to frenzy and be fatigued just to catch up to someone. That idea is good in terms of realism, but you need to sacrifice part of that realism for balance purposes.
By realism, killers would instamori a survivor. Or a chainsaw hit instakills.
The idea is really good, but we already have nurse for that. Feral Frenzy would be inadequate i think.
This is my way to see it.
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well everyone, killers and survivors, believed that pre pubescent legion was annoying. Reverting or making him similar to the old legion in anyway is not something that I would see as beneficial for the game.
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"well everyone, killers and survivors, believed that pre pubescent legion was annoying."
If that was true, I would agree with you.
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why would they make him trash then? No one enjoyed him bruv. If u did, good for you but no
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They made him trash because the changes that they made were rushed and almost no thought was put into it. And the changes that they thought would be good turned out to be the opposite.
TL;DR They made him trash, but they didn't mean to do it.
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they made him annoying when he was already annoying. Im gonna be done discussing this mate. Pointless because the devs arent dumb enough to turn him into what he once was. gg
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What's your definition of annoying? It seems really strange because legion isn't annoying to play against now. Their power is useless if you face good survivors. How can you still make him annoying? Their annoyance now is the fact that they can m1 you to death.
But you wont answer why do I bother?
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You can't have a lethal power and keep fast window and pallet vaulting. It's one or the other.
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he isnt annoying now. It seems like you want him to be annoying, or atleast by your changes it feels that way.
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Don't you guys read my post? I didn't talk about fast vaults and that they should stay the way they are.
This is more of an general idea, the base to where the devs can make them balanced and fun, keeping their identity.
I said quote by quote "...with the corresponding counterplay". That means no fast vault and no pallet vault UNLESS devs have another way of counterplay that doesn't make pallet and window vaulting op.
I'm repeating myself. Read the post, guys!
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Well I think he just cant be balanced like that. If he can down with frenzy then hes back to normal, a #########. I am just on my hands and knees they pull a freddy on him.
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It seems to me that you have a biased opinion about Legion. I'm saying that he could down with more counterplay than he had( even tho it was low, he had counterplay).
According to what you're saying no killer can have a lethal power, because all of them have counterplay and what I propose is a killer whom's power can down survivors, HAS counterplay (which is decided by devs how it is done) and can spread hits quickly.
Simple as that.
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Honestly, I found the missed hit change really stupid. If you miss a hit from BS reasons (especially with dedicated servers around the corner) it becomes extremely frustrating, way more than missing with a hatchet, a blink or post-phase hit. It also removes the whole "frenzy" aspect of Feral Frenzy.
And is spamming lunge to go faster bad anyway? Honestly, if you have the patience for that, then you should get rewarded. Even if it was possible anymore, it seems as a waste. They could have simply removed the ability lunge or decrease the lunge itself (like T1 Myers) while in FF and it would have "fixed" this "problem".
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Actually your idea is really good, the one that reduces the lunge range like t1 myers.
I completely agree with the missing a hit change being really stupid.
I'll change that part of the post.
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The part about people complaining killers are op they take only ptb players input which is a small af portion of the community’s input instead of releasing it as is then fixing it mid chapter or a hot fix where everyone not just a select group that’s pc only can voice their opinion.
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Yeah I agree they shouldnt base it all off of ptb. I do however think that legion is trash regardless.
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I think the devs basically took away all the uniqueness of Legion and just give him a power that lets you injure survivors faster after that change they did to him. (Instead of making him more fun to play as or against.)
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