Exposed Status Effect isn't directly countered by Perks
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You know @List_of_concerns you make the statement that you can't and others can't know certain pieces of information as facts. Now I posit to you that this community as 4head and toxic filled as it is actually has some damn good record keeping and information generating. Partly due to the devs taking time out every so often to actually give us their stats. Why they even gave us some going on three weeks ago now right on this very website. You can find past tidbits of information direct from them on their old stream vods as well.
You've also got the wealth of players who are actually well known, played for thousands of hours, and at times even go out of their way to test and generate stats for specific situations. There is also the well maintained official gamepedia wiki which contains so much information about the game's and present along with the occasional specific number value change from certain perks, items, addons etc.
There is a youtuber or two who've done history videos on the game from launch till present day.
I think you would be best served going through this stuff and coming back.
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Thank you for listing some and/or all of the proactive counters to the Exposed Status Effect. Your post may help bring more awareness to the fact that there aren't any Perks that directly counter the Exposed Status Effect.
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The point isn'nt meant to be a proper counter to it, but rather become the target of the killer, thus keeping other people hidden and safe while you (hopefully someone good at chases) use the perk to draw the attention of the killer, utilizing the exposed perk in your favor as a bait.
I think this Perk idea is interesting. I'm just not sure it's function (isn't meant to be a proper counter) would qualify when it comes to filling the void I presented.
Thanks for the reply.
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It's a counter by trying to become the target. Having an aura gives you away, and the killer will most likely go for a survivor they can't lose when they have exposed. Basically, it's a risk to run unless the killer is already running exposed perks or Evil Within, but if they are it lets you act as a distraction without much more of a risk. It's a soft counter that uses exposed in the survivors half-favor to be bait.
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I summon Poweas and NMCKE for their balance opinions on this topic. Please, people with a lot of experience in this game, give some feedback this user might believe
Thank you for calling off the cavalry. I hope I'm not being that much of a witch.
please refer to this ^^^^ it will help improve your experience against exposed perks and statuses
Thanks for the list. I already knew this information before creating this post. Either way, it could serve as a nice reminder and I'm glad you took the time to pass on.
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@List_of_concerns I like how you chose to respond to the one I removed, can’t handle the real reply I guess. I asked for their feedback because apparently to you I don’t have facts and have no idea how Myers power works, thought I’d ask some players with thousands of hours experience but withdrew it to try to give a reasonable response myself since you don’t believe anyone without irrefutable proof. I’m just sick of you ignoring everyone’s opinions, thinking you know better and talking down to everyone while having nothing to back yourself up but demanding it of others. It makes trying to have a discussion with you infuriating, if you can’t see the point everyone is trying to get across to you, then that’s fine, guess we’re all wasting our time. I don’t really want to waste any more of my time talking to such a person that can’t see when numerous people make the similar points on this thread maybe they actually have a good point? But no, you can’t accept that and keep brushing everyone off. I’m actually done here, we have nothing further to discuss.
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That would be cool. If Vigil would shorten the Exposed Timer. I mean it would be still useless but there would be a counter to it. to the limited exposed status effect^^
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I don’t really want to waste any more of my time talking to such a person
Normally, I'd reply to each post individually. Since you've decided you don't want to continue replying, I'll be replying to your combined (final) replies. If those truly are your last replies, I want to thank you for your participation and I hope we can discuss other ideas in the future. Maybe, in the future, we won't be on opposing sides of a debate.
I play as him regularly and see others play as him regularly, I think I’d stand a chance at knowing... you know Freddy and wraith etc can reduce their TR and increase vaulting too? Doesn’t make them viable.
I'm not discrediting your personal experience. I'm not sure if Wraith is currently viable. I think Freddy may have been confirmed to be inviable. The developers have been mentioning a Freddy rework for quite some time.
Tell that to the adrenaline, MoM, DS, DH meta, your perk would love those. I don’t really need you to but it’s funny you keep asking me for proof yet have none of your own
I'm not trying to turn my opinions into facts. Even if I were, I can't do that without proof. I'm telling you what I think, not what I know. Sometimes, it just comes down to word choice. You've asked me for proof too. I can't prove my opinions. I can prove that there isn't a survivor Perk that mentions the Exposed Status Effect.
Hmm, that wouldn’t mean they have a good idea of what constitutes balance though only what they find unfair due to lack of experience....
I agree, it's very possible that their opinions on balance may not be in line with that of their more experienced peers.
Look up some threads on the most balanced killers, plus I said “fairly”
Sorry. I didn't choose the correct words this time. I meant fairly balanced instead of completely balanced.
Hmm I wonder if MoMs getting abused... even if you say this perk would help people who struggle with exposed perks what’s stopping the toxic pro SWF squads abusing it to render a killers exposed perks/power useless
I'm not sure. MoM has only been tested on the PTB for either one or just a few cycles. Maybe it felt balanced at the time. Only the developers can adjust a Perk so that it doesn't render a killer's power and/or Perks useless.
This is why I am voicing objections and pointing out flaws, most take these into account and edit/tweak their idea. I’m not here to fight you, just saying your perk, as is, is not balanced and needs requirements to balance it as the earlier person suggested in theirs, OP perks must have a downside or caveat otherwise it is rewarding bad play and opening it to abuse
I should have made my intentions more clear in my original post, but I've considered feedback on my Perk ideas to be a complimentary, but secondary topic. My main goal is to bringing awareness to the fact that there aren't any Perks that directly counter the Exposed Status Effect. I've edited my original post to reflect these intentions more clearly. Also, many Perks have no downsides. I agree that most Perks do have some caveat.
I play Myers as one of my most played killers (70% of my playtime as killer) saying I don’t understand is what I find insulting especially when all you’ve said above hints that you haven’t played him, hence I did respond in a negative way. He does spend a lot of time in tier 2 yes, he does have a small TR yes, but he is susceptible to looping like any M1 killer at tier 2. Tier 3 gives him that extra edge and does make him viable against good survivors because it can be used in a number or ways, strategically, saying he should be good with tier 2 might be true but he won’t be viable, you will be lowering his ability with a SINGLE perk, not even considering combos, it would make using tier 3 not even worth it if the perk is a popular choice because survivors can use it without downsides and Myers who takes effort to get to tier 3 would find this doesn’t matter anymore and would essentially lose his effectiveness
I'm not trying to imply that your vast personal experience means nothing. Viability can be determined in many ways. In my opinion, an important statistic to monitor would be The Shape's kill rate. In a recent developer post, some of these types of statistics were shared. I'm not sure if The Shape was listed in that post. I don't think he was. Keep in mind, balance is always changing and we'd need to reference recent data. While my second Perk idea would not be disabled after use, my first Perk idea (Distortion, but for Exposed) would be balanced the same way Distortion is. The possibility of the Perk being disabled is what makes it balanced. If they don't use Exposed, the Perk doesn't do anything. If they do use Exposed, the Perk would aid you a maximum of three times per match.
It would be, as above it has no real downsides, and therefore no balance, even adrenaline requires all gens to be completed... So you’re fine with new killers running NOED as a crutch until they get better, good to know. Still won’t stop toxic squads from abusing what you’re intending as a new survivor perk, akin to the “balancing around rank 20 argument”
I've edited my original post. I've withdrawn my Perk ideas (for the time being). While I was interested to see if their functionality (as written) would be balanced enough for live gameplay, my main goal was to bring awareness to a void I noticed in the survivor Perks. Also, I am fine with new killers, or any killers, using Hex: No One Escapes Death as a crutch until they get better. I'm not interested in the ways swf could affect game balancing decisions. I do think the prevention of toxicity is important and I think the developers should try/continue trying to limit toxic behaviors (camping is considered toxic in most multiplayer games. I don't think using pallets or vaulting is toxic.) I think Survive With Friends should be made almost completely irrelevant when it comes to balancing Dead by Daylight for everyone. Not everyone (not even the majority of players) play(s) Survive With Friends exclusively.
Not to say there aren’t some extremely skilled people with these killers, it’s relative
This is one of the reasons why without recent data, we can't confirm or deny The Shape's viability with or without using Tier 3 (instances where The Shape is or isn't benefiting from one shot downs or Exposed).
I like how you chose to respond to the one I removed, can’t handle the real reply I guess. I asked for their feedback because apparently to you I don’t have facts and have no idea how Myers power works, thought I’d ask some players with thousands of hours experience but withdrew it to try to give a reasonable response myself since you don’t believe anyone without irrefutable proof.
How was I supposed to know you were going to remove your prior post(s)? Also, I'm not used to others calling for backup in a forum setting. I'm not sure how many @s are required for a post to be considered "witchhunting".
One of the facts I wanted you to accept is that The Shape's power doesn't stop working just because he isn't in Tier 3. I accept the fact that The Shape's power isn't as powerful in Tier 2 as it is in Tier 3. I can't know, for sure(without recent data), if The Shape's power becomes inviable without the use of Tier 3.
You mentioned being condescending in one of your prior posts. I'm not trying to patronize you, nor do I think I'm better than you. I'm trying to debate ideas, using supporting facts, without leaning too heavily on my own personal experiences or the experiences of others. From what I can tell, you're not too pleased with the state or outcome of our debate. I hope you can derive something positive our conversations. I'm sorry if I've displeased you.
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@List_of_concerns If you think asking other more experienced people on the forums who I respect their opinions of balance for their opinions on a perk is witch hunting then fine, believe that. Do what you deem necessary. I just really respect their opinions, they could have said I was absolutely wrong and I would have accepted it, I didn't choose them because they're biased or were going to 100% prove my point. I wanted more experienced opinions as I know they have played for 1000s of hours over many years and may have some "data and facts/proof" you desire.
No our conversation was disappointing, you could have taken concerns on board and edited your perk idea to bring it into balance, then maybe we could all agree with your point of view and the perks ability to function fairly in the game. Instead you remained on this one track saying people required proof, brushing them off, it wasn't pleasant. I'm sorry too, maybe one day we can have a conversation and agree on how to make a new balanced perk for the game. I don't have a problem with having such a perk to counter exposed, but it must be balanced, not unfair to a killer that is quite dependant on exposed as a main part of his power/pressure and not abused. Which is difficult. This is why people were voicing concerns. Sorry our conversation wasn't more pleasant you did say some pretty condescending things, but yes, this is all from me just to wrap things up.
You need to accept that experience does mean something, and yes while some really expert players might get 4k at rank 1 with a tier 2 Myers this does not take into account how they did it (could have hard tunneled/camped, could have got potatoes who fed hooks etc) Proof and data aren't all they're cracked up to be in dbd anyway. Data shows it's all mostly billies and nurses at rank 1 anyway with high kill rates. Myers is nowhere to be seen even with tier 3 (as some people call it OP, if so why isn't he top kill rated?), hard counter his main ability with a perk that has no balance and I doubt it would improve his kill rate. This data is not a be all and end all anyway, it has flaws, like any data. Expecting it to show you some "truth" isn't going to happen anyway.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/data-sheets-community-requests#latest
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When there are no Perks that directly counter Exposed, I'm just guessing here, but I think adding more ways to become Exposed would increase the desire and/or need for a Perk that could directly counter Exposed.
Yeah, then they can charge up their power that will then do absolutely nothing, effectively just wasting all the time they spent charging it. What a fun and interactive game that would be.
A lot of Perks directly counter killer powers. I'm feel confident saying that more than just a few Perks are capable of wasting a killer's time. I also think that there are some Perks that have been created with the intent to waste the killer's time. Usually if something is good for a survivor, it's bad for the killer. That's the nature of opposing sides.
Also I think you seriously miss the point of how reliant Michael is on specific add ons and builds to make decent use of Tier 1 and 2. Tier 2 is almost never the focus of a build because it's essentially any M1 killer with a lower terror radius. T1 is guaranteed a hinderance and drawback if you aren't using his T1 mirror. Point is, if you add a perk that just braindead counters exposed, Michael basically dies. Either you can ONLY play him when you have "very rare" add ons, and only one specific build works, or you go into a match, reach the point where your power is a POWER, an actual spike in what you can do, and basically become a joke as every survivor just ignores the whole point of it.
I don't know how reliant killers are on their add-ons. I can't say I personally enjoy using add-ons frequently. I don't want a braindead Perk. You can still play The Shape without add-ons. Sure, he might not be as effective without add-ons. I don't focus my playtime on trying different add-on(s) combinations. I've tried to tell others in this thread that Exposed isn't the only benefit The Shapes gets from his killer power. I don't know how the power text could be so misleading. Again, I'm just guessing, but I think I understand what you're trying to say. Exposed is definitely powerful and it certainly makes The Shape seem more powerful when he is able to benefit from Exposed.
You clearly have very little understanding of how a killer like Michael works, your replies that basically just say "lol don't go tier 3, tier 2 is still good enough as a power" show this BLATANTLY.
Also holy hell is this thread hard to read with the walls of spam quoting.
I don't want my personal opinion or experience to overshadow what the The Shape's power text description says. His power does not cease to exist just because he never uses Tier 3. In that case, he'd simply be benefiting from a portion of his power instead of the entire power.
Sorry about the quoting. Maybe I got a little carried away here and there. When a post is going in so many directions or so many one line arguments are being made, I felt the need to reply to them on a case by case basis. Thanks for the notification. I'll try to reduce line by line quoting in the future.
Thanks for the reply.
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One counter could be to allow Dead Hard to be used while healthy. If necessary, you could add some punishment for using it that way, too. Maybe doubling the duration of the exhausted effect.
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Perk 3: Eyes on me
You refuse to let your friends fall victim to the killer, and go out of your way to make sure you are the killer’s only target.
Whenever a generator is completed, your aura is revealed to the killer for 60/45/30 seconds, and you gain the exposed status effect for 30/20/15 seconds. While your aura is visible, exhaustion is ignored, with the perks that causes it deactivating until this perk deactivates. Gain 20/40/60% more bloodpoints in both the Altruism and the Boldness category.
I've just taken another look at this Perk idea (I'm trying to reply in order of replies received). I want to make sure I'm understanding it's intended functionality correctly. When you say, "exhaustion is ignored, with the perks that causes it(exhaustion?) deactivating until this perk deactivates" does that mean you can use exhaustion Perks repeatedly while your Aura is visible/revealed? If exhaustion Perks were deactivated, how would you benefit from exhaustion being ignored? If you can't use exhaustion Perks while this Perk is active and we remove the bonus bloodpoint effects, how does this Perk help survivors? Also, if you can use exhaustion Perks repeatedly, how would this Perk help you if it were the only Perk you had available? What I mean is, if you didn't have any exhaustion Perks equipped or available, how would this Perk aid you in that stand-alone situation? In my opinion, revealing your Aura and becoming Exposed would benefit the killer more than the survivor, unless you meant for exhaustion Perks to be usable for the duration of the aura reveal.
The reason why Perks like Object of Obsession, Deliverance, and No Mither work as distraction Perks is because they help you while harming you. The can help designate you as the weakest or easiest target. Those three Perks can cause you to "become the target of the killer, thus keeping other people hidden and safe." Seeing the killer's aura while the killer can see your aura is an equal trade (1:1). Having the ability to unhook yourself, while also becoming broken, could help you and your and team (they don't have to spend time saving you). Deliverance has many caveats so I wouldn't consider it a 1:1 trade. Deliverance, in many cases, has to be earned and then can't even be used (can't be used in struggle phase). No Mither gives you permanent (entire match duration) positive and negative effects. Being permanently broken can easily distract the killer and cause them to focus on the permanently injured survivor first.
If we tweaked your Perk a little, it could be an alternative to Rancor (Exposed killer Perk).
Whenever a generator is completed, a random survivor's aura is revealed to the killer for 60/45/30 seconds, and they suffer from the exposed status effect for 30/20/15 seconds. While the survivor suffers from exposed, they also suffer from exhaustion.
We could also tack on some Obsession stuff. Could have it reveal the Obsession's aura instead of a random survivor's aura and when a survivor completes a generator alone, they become the new Obsession.
I wouldn't want to see another Exposed killer Perk (like the one above) before seeing an anti-Exposed survivor Perk or a survivor Perk that directly counters the Exposed Status Effect.
Thanks for the reply.
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When you use an exhaustion perk in that time, instead of becoming exhausted, you can't use that perk anymore until the effect ends. So if you had Balanced landing and dead hard, you could use one right after the other, but then not use them again till the effect is over.
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I agree. I've added this idea to the OP. Thanks for the reply.
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You don't like using addons and don't know much about effect they have on the game. You don't take anecdotal evidence and don't read the official documentation. You're even guessing that a lot of perks counter killer powers and perks. The reality is that some perks can counter aspects of powers, but not in an apples to apples way. It is usually more situation dependent or just universally useful. There are actually very few hard counters and most weren't designed to be that it just turns out that sometimes they are.
So am I at a loss as to what you're seeking when throughout the discussion you've not went and sought more insight. Insight that would help you to have a better understanding of how the landscape of the game is. Insight that would help you better to see why people are saying what they are saying.
I'm seriously asking, what is your objective?
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I've added this idea to the OP. Thanks for the reply.
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Completely agree and well said. Take away an entire powers' ability is just stupid. All killers who have exposed can be looped except with Rancor and NOED. NOED can be cleansed and Rancor is just hide then leave as soon as gates are open. It's not OP. It's balanced. Just like Gen Rush. You don't want them buffing gen times? Don't complain about 1-shot down killers who can be looped into the ground and have time limits that can easily be waited out.
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Off topic brigade strikes again.
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The main thing with exposed statut is that they all come with downside or limit :
=> Hex Noed : can be destroy and cancel before it spawn. The killer can still be loop and stealth
=> Hex devour hope : can be destroy , deny by hook rush
=> Hex haunted the ground : the only condition is just to not touch it.
=> Rancor : Stealth and loop are the main strength against it.
=> Make your choice : Stealth and hook rush counter it
=> Iron maiden : you can avoid to use locker or be able to stealth for 3s or loop for 16s (even less since the killer need to come).
=> Myers ew 3 : myers usual counters
=> Ghostface :
=> Clown with addons : the condition is to be hit directly by a bottle and be in an open space to get affect by that. You need to avoid both as you use your three main strength : loop, gen rush and stealth.
=> Huntress with addons (even it is not exposed) : limited ammo, mostly rely on your ability to dodge.
=> Plague (even it is not exposed) : time waste if the killer focus on put you sick only and don't take the chance to take hits.
So create perks to counter this when there is already existing counters that require no perks is not adapted.
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A killer has to mess with four different survivors. There shouldn't be a perk to counter the Expose status. There really shouldn't be any Survivor perk that outright counters a Killer or one/a few of their perks. That doesn't make any sense, especially considering EVERYONE could bring that perk, making whatever that perk is countering useless against the group of four.
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Let's circle back a bit. It seems the most common counter people suggest is to simply hide or play stealthy. Myers (The Shape), and now Ghost Face, have to find you to trigger Exposed. If you've been found, you're not hiding or playing stealthy at that point in time. I thought that'd be obvious.
Yes, you could play stealthy for a time to prevent Exposed, but it's going to happen eventually if you play the objectives (or try to escape via the Exit Gates). It's not like you could get all five gens done while every survivor is hiding in a corner trying to prevent Exposed. Exposed is much stronger on small terror radius killers. Hearing is one of two senses you can use while playing. If you can't hear the killer next to you and your line of sight is blocked by objects in the environment, you can't react to the potential one hit down. In those scenarios, it's likely that the killer will get a free (not skill based) one hit down.
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It doesn't need to be countered when it can be so easily avoided by playing smart combined with overall game sense. A perk that counters exposed would literally be the end of Myers as a killer. Not to mention other killers and killer perks.
As a survivor, it is pretty easy to counter exposed as every way exposed is even brought into the game has a downside. It's all about knowing how exposed was brought into the game and countering it.
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The mask can't be hidden from. Tier 3 evil and its game over man.
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The 3 second boost at 150% normal speed means most killers will close that distance in less then 10.
Maybe the 'insta heal' could be used from the downed state. shove the ol syringe in the heart and your up again.
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but after a hit the killer go slower that's mean it will take must more that 10 sec for a normal killer to close the distance.
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