My problem with Decisive Strike
Hi people from the fog!
I'm Daigo, I've been playing the game for about 700h and reached rank 1 as both killer and survivor. English isn't my native language so I apologize if I make any mistake that may lead to a misunderstanding.
Today I'd like to share my point of view on Decisive Strike's design. Since its release, this perk has been at the center of many controversies and got changed and even reworked. Let's talk about today's version design flaws.
I'm going to talk about my experience as a killer so far, as I'm not necessarily using the perk as survivor. I do it sometimes but I don't really like it (I prefer to play meme perks like Flip Flop eh). Below rank 5-6, what I've seen is that people are using the perk as intended. If you get tunneled, it gives you a free escape token and allows you to gain distance, reposition, and ideally heal and get back on an objective. (and that's great). Note that here, the survivor playing DS will have a tendency to run away from you.
Around ranks 1-3, where most survivors start to know what they're doing, DS has slowly become an "invulnerability" perk, used to perform really risky plays that wouldn't work without the use of this perk. Let me give you an example from one of my most recent game:
I was playing my sneaky boi Ghostface and hooked a Nancy in the basement, right when a Nea got unhooked somewhere else on the map. I got out of the basement and headed towards a generator where someone had been spotted by Barbecue & Chili. So far so good. While I travel, the Nancy gets unhooked in the basement. I wasn't too far so I instantly come back with in mind "Alright the Nancy was on the hook, so I'm gonna chase the other person and not be sweaty". When I arrive in the basement, I see the Nancy running away (with borrowed time, even though i got this information post-match) and the Nea (who was on the hook 30 sec ago) hops in a locker.
And there I am. Two choices. I can hit the Nancy and proc Borrowed Time which would lead me to lose distance, tunnel and waste time. Or I can pick up the Nea in the locker and get stunned, lose distance, waste time. Or I can wait 30~ seconds in front of the locker to wait for her DS to end and once again, waste time.
And here, you could say "Yeah, but you could've kept going for that person on the gen that you saw with BBQ and just not come back to the basement". But what I'm trying to point out here is that the Nea purposedly rushed to the basement because she had DS up to perform this risky play, that DS turned into a really favorable situation for survivors. The problem here is that DS isn't played as an anti-tunneling perk, survivors just throw themselves at the killer because they have 1 minute to use a really strong ability that can be clutch and make the killer waste a tremendous amount of time.
And this situation happens maybe once every 2 games, with sometimes dilemmas like this multiple times in a single trial. I just feel like I'm being punished for hooking people too fast.
So yeah, most of the time I still win the game, and I pip, so yayyy who cares right? Well, I just think the perk's design could be improved and I wanted to talk about it with you guys to know how you feel about my little story :)
Take care
It isn't a long time but the problem is just that survivors just think of DS as 60 seconds of invincibility an do stupid things like rush basement unhooks.
There needs to be some restrictions on what you can do while ds is active. Many have suggested of ds being deactivated once another survivor is hooked but then the killer could just slug the next person they chase and only hook them once the other survivor was unhooked.
Something better (imo) would be that the survivor loses decisive strike once they performs any altruistic action. If a survivor has time to unhook another, that means they are not being tunneled and should not need the protection of ds.
I don't see a big deal with what you told in your story to be honest.
You said yourself you didn't want to play sweaty. Sometimes when you play sweaty or have sweaty moments in the match, it can backfire.
I would also add on that a survivor loses Decisive strike once they start working on a generator, cause if they are working on a gen, it means they aren't being tunneled and don't need that protection anymore.
-Unhooked = 60 second DS timer (if running perk)
-Another survivor is hooked = You lose your DS timer
-You were slugged before that other survivor was hooked = You kept your 60 second timer (still ticking down as it should have when it first triggered but doesn't instantly disappear since you were slugged before the other got hooked.)
This would make it so you have protection of being 2 hooked within a 60 second window unless the killer hooked someone else. It would also prevent the killer from simply slugging you and another, and instantly hooking you again.
It would also not punish the killer for finding the original DS user after hooking another survivor, and would make the idea of using DS as "invincibility" more of a risk.
I kinda like what you guys are suggesting, I think it makes sense that DS should deactivate if you're not actively being tunneled (e.g. completing a gen, healing/unhooking a mate) but it might narrow down the gameplay possibilities that you have when running this perk and instead make survivors waste time.
A good example would be tapping a gen while being chased with DS up. Would it deactivate or not? If it does, I think it'd be too much.
On the other hand I like what MegaWaffle suggested : DS deactivates if someone else is hooked, but you keep it if you were slugged during that hook.
I like that :)
If you're a Rank 1 killer surely it shouldn't be too big a problem letting DS proc and just whacking the survivor again a few seconds later.
I mean that's what I do and I'm not a Rank 1 killer.
Sometimes you are outplayed, sometimes you outplay them. No biggie. You say you don't want to play sweaty but you're being awfully sweaty about this.
If you are downing people fast enough that DS can still proc after you hook someone else, surely there are better things to do than see the glass half empty. Why not pat yourself on the back for being able to down and hook two survivors and find another one to whack in under a minute. Sounds like a win to me.
Next thing I know you'll be complaining that Borrowed Time let a survivor out of the basement.
The game should have strong perks. And killers should be careful what they asked for. If killers had not successfully had self care nerfed to oblivion then adrenaline qould never have become meta.
Well when survivors are *really good* and by really good I don't mean your average rank 1 survivor but when they actually know how to properly loop, an additional hit can be the difference between 1 gen being done or not.
Once again, I said that it doesn't bother me in terms of "winning" or "losing", I don't really care in this game as it doesn't mean much. I just think the design of the perk makes it a bit weird and unfun and could maybe be improved ^^
@DudeDelicious Lol what?
So using perks to their fullest potential or as a strategy is now exploitable?!
DS isn’t meant to be JUST an anti-tunneling perk. It can be utilized to play other ways.
If you’re going to claim someone is exploiting by simple using a perk that works AS intended. (I met the condition and got hooked now I gotta wait) Then you better be ready to explain how slugging isn’t exploiting, considering about 90% of the killers use this “strategy”.
Once again, DS isn’t an anti tunnel perk only.
Couldn't you just go for the unhooker instead of tunneling the unhooked survivor ?
Wouldn't that prevent both BT and DS to even work ?
I think ds should be disabled if someone else gets hooked. I don't think another change is necessary.
I'm pretty sure DS will be getting some sort of similar change in the near future.
I have a "pretty good" feeling.
It blows my mind that people still try to use this argument.
I've hooked a DS user, downed and hooked TWO other survivors, then found+downed the DS user again only to be hit by DS. And that was tunneling, how?
Not to mention all of the times DS users will play like complete idiots (running straight at you, doing a generator in your face, hopping in a locker, etc, etc) just because they know that they have DS.
It's not an anti-tunnel perk, it's a full minute of killer immunity that punishes the killer for downing the survivors too fast.
It should de-activate if A) another survivor is hooked B) the DS user is full healed or C) the DS user begins working on a generator/exit gate because clearly safety isn't his priority at that point.
The person who had ds was the unhooker. They got unhooked and went for q basement resue with ds active and gave the newly unhooked person bt
Well... I understand that my initial post was long but it would have been cool to read it :( The unhooker was someone who'd just been unhooked and just hopped in a locker
First off it isn't even a sure thing.
I'm red rank (3-4) and still can NEVER hit the skillcheck which is why I never use it.
Second, this kind of situation literally never happened to me in two years. So if it is possible it must be incredibly rare.
I'll resume mine; that's extremly rare.
Well I think that's one of the problem of this entire thread, I'm taking examples from situations where both roles play perfectly or as nearly. Most people I encounter myself included maybe miss the skillcheck 0,5% of the time, dunno about you guys? (No offense really)
Not when you play against actual good people
I agree completely.
"DS has slowly become an "invulnerability" perk, used to perform really risky plays that wouldn't work without the use of this perk"
This is the issue. It's an invulnerability window instead of an anti-tunnel perk currently. It is being abused in its current state. 60 seconds is way too long.
It either needs to last 40 seconds or deactivate when a different survivor goes down.
The locker play is also pretty broken.
Downing and hooking 2 different survivors then finding the DS user again is rare to say the least, yes. But having the DS user come off hook, downing and hooking another survivor across the map, then being hit by the DS user again is extremely common.
But since we're on the subject of "rarity", it's much more uncommon for a survivor with a working spacebar to miss DS in red ranks.
For you guys that want it disabled when hooking someone else....ok, let’s completely get rid of the 60 second timer then! Cause you know what’s also unfair? Legitimately being tunneled and being unable to use DS because of the timer. So get rid of it as the tradeoff. The new “timer” is simply DS is active until the killer hooks a different survivor. Now you can continue doing what you claim to be doing in these complaints....hooking other survivors, and that DS will be gone. Now also when the unhooked survivor gets tunneled off hook, their ability in chase cant screw them out of their own perk because of the timer running. Problem solved.
Edit: seems my example clips aren't working
Heaven forbid Surviviors have good perks I guess. Jeez sometimes it seems like killers want every Survivior perk to be garbage. What's next? Is Boil over on the chopping block? Ffs just leave it.
BHVR never said the DS rework was designed to nerf it. They said it was designed to open counterplay for it. It was also never specified as an anti tunnel perk, which means it doesn't need to operate within those constraints. And if it does, then there are more perks than just DS that need looked at. Noed is supposed to punish genrushing yet will trigger even if the killer isn't genrushed for example.
The locker play isn't broken.
If they hop in a locker then it's clear bait. If you take it, it's your own fault. And if you have to wait the full 60 to open that locker than you most definitely were Tunnelling the poor sap.
The whole point of DS is to encourage killers not to tunnel survivors as you said. In the situation you are in is no different to killers using plague. A survivor could either cleanse which would ruin the whole game for them or walk around being a one shot the whole game. As a survivor or killer you should be ready and full aware of tough decision that could affect you. Not only that, but the whole point of killers chasing a survivor is to waste time so I don't really ds being a problem at all because all it is doing is helping the survivor's objective.
Please don't touch decisive strike. It's in a good spot as it is rn. If you get hit with it, 5 sec stun won't affect your game. It's rarely a guaranteed escape for surv also, only if it's near the opened exit doors, bit in such case it's your loss
@HP150 The problem is people thinking is strictly an anti-tunnel perk.
You get the "But I wasn't tunneling" ... Good. One could make the same argument when they slug and you think "But I don't have DS".
This perk already got nerfed to a basic form and now they want it nerfed even more. Go figure.
I think DS is bad for the game. I don't use it as a survivor and it's annoying as a killer. Too easy to guarantee an escape at end game.
It is what it is though. I don't expect it to change.
Original ds was never a "nice thing". I don't even want to bother going in depth on how wrong ds was on so many levels.
It is also far easier to get rank 1 as survivor without even using perks than on killer.
I'm pretty sad to see that from a debate on improvements we could make to a perk's design, some of you are slowly making it shift to the Killer VS Survivor usual bs :(
I didn't say that DS was too strong or that it should be removed or that survivors shouldn't have strong perks. I just said that it can lead to stupid situations where a killer feels punished for being strong.
Was around the same thing with the first version of Mettle Of Man tbh, and the first version of DS was leading to stupid situations as well with the juggling.
I'm honestly blown away how people continue to whine about DS. I can count on one hand how many times I've gotten hit by it since it was nerfed. It's a complete nonfactor in my games.
The only change I could possibly be okay with is if the timer is similar to the EGC, with a couple tweaks. After being unhooked the DS timer is 30 seconds. If you are a. in the dying state, b. in a chase with the killer, or c. within a certain small proximity of the killer (so they can't moonwalk), then the timer takes twice as long, up to 60 total seconds.
None of this "deactivates if another survivor is hooked" bullshit, which would screw you over because survivors unhook you mere seconds before the killer is about to hook a new someone, making your DS completely useless.
Seriously though, know how killers like to tell survivors to adapt? That's what you're refusing to do. It is NOT difficult to keep track of who was unhooked within 60 seconds.
"If they hop in a locker then it's clear bait."
Duh.
"If you take it, it's your own fault. And if you have to wait the full 60 to open that locker than you most definitely were Tunnelling the poor sap."
You have no choice here, eat the DS or waste 60 seconds.
Also no, that isn't always tunneling. If I down someone else, hook them and then you're just sitting on a gen, just to jump in the locker next to it when I'm come close, that isn't tunneling.
Once any other person goes down you have not been tunneled.
Hey look guys. An entitled killer that has a problem with survivors running a crutch perk when utilized fully can give you a decently strong play ONCE PER GAME. Wow. Isn’t that crazy? Once per game? I don’t even need to mention Noed, Bbq, Ruin, these perks have been the center of attention way more than a perk that if you land a difficult skill check within a time window after being unhooked you can escape the killer for a WHOLE WHOPPING 5 seconds. That is if they’re not running Enduring as most are with spirit fury.
you’re asking for a perk to be reworked again or possibly removed because of how strong it is when killers have specific perks to IGNORE the only escape tools that survivors have on the map; pallets.
if They nerf DS without touching on any of the five perks mentioned above. This game is going to have a serious problem with entitled killers such as yourself
Exactly. Using your NOED example, how is it fair that a camper should be able to get it to proc? 99% of even killer mains say to rush gens on them. But yet, those survivors still are hit with that “anti-genrush” perk. Killers are completely fine with that. DS isn’t any different, it’s primary use is anti-tunnel, but that doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY case where it should work.
It's making me sad how we went from a clever talk to everyone ranting about what they don't like in the game and not reading what has been said before O.o It was my first time posting on the forum, never again
Obviously first time posting on the forum, all anyone does here is complain and argue XD
I think I should deactivate by touching a generator or completely healing and they would stop using it as invulnerability.
"Okay, go cure yourself but don't touch the generators."
You have an option. Leave them or wait. If you wait the full 60 seconds to open that locker then you were DEFINITELY Tunnelling, which is where DS comes into play and should work as designed.
And if you are complaining that it's a waste of time, there is at least one other Survivior on the map, let that guy go, let his Decisive run out, and go after another dude. If he's the only one left what's such a waste of time about 60 seconds in front of a locker. There's no pressure on you, just wait.
You would not agree with that if you played killer at rank 1.
"And if you are complaining that it's a waste of time, there is at least one other Survivior on the map, let that guy go, let his Decisive run out, and go after another dude."
This is a lack of understanding in how killers have to maintain map pressure in the game. You can't just find a random survivor and decide to let them go and aimlessly go look for another survivor. We aren't talking about green ranks where you have 20minutes to take a stroll around the map browsing the aisles.
You cannot afford to let pressure die.
If Nancy had the endurance Status Effect from BT it only lasts for 15 secs so if you win Bloodlust tier I you're free to hit her. I did that in a match, where I had the same "problem" that you had, I simply extended the chase 15 secs and then goodbye BT.
Agree that entering a locker should disable ds
Technically yes. But having it activated means you can take the agro for someone getting chased. Say someone is getting tunneled cause it's their last hook. You take the agro and your second chance to escape. That's just me though
@Karl_Childers They legit want the perk to be garbage like MoM turned out to be.
Because for some reason they don’t like it when a survivor gets an additional hit, even tho DS has conditions now and they can literally do what they would normally do anyway... slug.
Oh no I'm on PS4 I don't have super easy skillchecks like you guys. (Yes don't even debate it just look at any vids. Skillchecks are gigantic on pc idk if it's to compensate for the kb but it's ridiculous)
Maybe that's why I never have problems with that perk has a killer and never use it has a survivor.
The locker play is not broken at all. It's a counter to slugging, and also requires planning on the survivor's behalf. I've even used dead hard to get to a locker before. If the killer is hooking survivors so fast that the 60 seconds is an issue, then the killer has enough pressure to deal with the 5-second stun from DS. It would actually be more time-efficient to eat the stun than to leave that survivor alone, too.
Just wanted to point out that enduring no longer affects DS
Entitled killers bitching and moaning about strong survivor perks, what's new.
As a red rank killer, I rarely ever get ds'd. Why? Because I know not to go for the dude that just got unhooked. It's as simple as that. A mere minute of immunity after you get unhooked means nothing if you don't go for them. And if they jump in a locker while they have it active, then get off them and go patrol generators/initiate a chase with another survivor.
Not to mention you can also just slug the survivor who has ds active, while you go after others. That's one extra person not doing anything to progress the game towards the end and other survivors will have to stop doing what they're doing to go pick them up. Most of the people in this thread are acting like they're forced to pick up the person who has ds active.