No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas
Perks spark controversy all the time, that's why perks that are deserving of change are changed. Perks like Mettle of Mann and Decisive were unfun to play against and were thus changed (thankfully so) however, one of the most controversial killer perks (Noed) has only been buffed since it's creation. It's important to note that the only issue I have with this perk is that it rewards failure. I play both killer and survivor and find that it teaches bad habits to newer killers, brings bad killers to higher ranks, and causes frustration. The goal of this post is to change Noed into a more balanced but competitively viable in the perk meta.
Here's what I find to be a good change for Noed. First, keep it as a dull totem that turns into a hex totem, however, make it turn into a hex totem after the 2nd or 3rd gen is completed, but keep it active for the duration of the match. It no longer increases movement speed and grants one shots down, instead, it's designed to slow down the gens for the duration of the match (at least when it's still active). Now, every time a generator is completed the next generator will repair 8/9/10% slower, up to a maximum of 32/36/40% slower gens when 4 are completed and the totem is still active. Lastly, any gen not being worked on or repaired currently, will lose 1% of progression passively for every 1 second it isn't worked on (if it is damaged by a killer, it has normal gen regression + natural perk regression). All in all, the perk is designed to drastically slow down the game for every gen completed.
Summary: Noed becomes a hex after 3rd gen completion, but is active all match. Every gen completed slows every other gen down by 8/9/10% up to a maximum of 32/36/40% and gens not being worked on regresses 1% for every second it's not being worked on.
I want to hear anyone's thoughts and opinions, and any other possible changes they might have!
Comments
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honestly, I'm a firm believer that noed does not deserve a change because while that I can agree that it rewards you for failure, I also feel that it's just as balanced as any other second chance perk. If were to hold all perks to that standard then fire up would get nerfed, remember me would get nerfed, adrenaline would get nerfed, decisive strike would get another nerf, dead hard would get a nerf, etc. etc. Besides, there are multiple perks and items that let survivors find and cleanse totems faster. So all in all its up to the survivor to deny noed.
However I do believe that your perk idea is great. I think it would be a strong competitor to ruin if not just straight up better than it. It would definitely be a nice shift in the meta if it were to be on its own.
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I like the idea, pair it with Fire Up and you've got a pretty good combo.
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That would be massively op with dying light and thanatophobia, especially with plague as she can just keep survivors injured the entire match. Besides NOED doesn't need a rework, you can prevent it from even activating if you just cleanse all 5 totems. There's loads of incentives for u to cleanse totems: blood points, inner strength perk.. Now that I think about it there aren't that many incentives lmao, but still if you cleanse all 5 totems and the killer had NOED, the killer just wasted an entire perk slot the whole game. NOED is balanced, it doesn't need a rework
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It would also synnergise with pop goes the weasel, ruin and corrupt intervention, making the game just come to a crawl after the 2nd or 3rd gen is done. Even tho it is a hex, I still feel like it's a bit too much
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NOED is balanced and doesn't need a rework. It's a hex perk. Just do bones. It's one of the those perks that's stronger at low rank, where survs don't know how to play against it, but that doesn't make it op. If you really want to hard counter it, run small game. NOED is only strong if you're so determined to sit on a gen that you neglect everything else.
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Noed is a completed balanced perk with built in counter-play, something both mettle of man and decisive didnt have, thus having those 2 perks reworked.
Noed has also only really seen nerfs since its release, not buffs.
So yeah, noed is in a good spot with a fair amount of counterplay to it.
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I haven't heard about any noed nerfs, it's only been buffed with the inclusion of one hit downs at all tiers. If there was any buffs made to the perk, please let me know since I didn't hear of them.
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NOED rewards the Killer for the Survivors failing to cleanse totems. Hate NOED? Do totems.
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I've had matches where I cleansed 4 out of 5 totems and had Noed hit. This was in purple ranks. It's hardly only a low rank issue. Understand I don't have an issue with Noed. If anything I'd rather see it go back to a timer. Have the timer last longer based on the number of hooks you got in the match.
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The only failure NOED rewards is the failure of survivors doing totems.
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It would make the 3 gen strategy impossible to go against. Killer is strongest when only 3 gens are left, slowing gen speed by 40% would be incredibly op.
Personally, I do agree that NOED is fine right now. It's one of the only reasons to work on dull totems. I wouldn't mind a change to NOED, but in that case it would be nice if dull totems had some other use to encourage survivors to cleanse totems.
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The issue I have with noed isn't that it's annoying or makes me mad to go against. I understand that it's preventable. Please note I'm speaking about this from the perspective of optimal players. It isn't optimal to search the entire map for totems instead of doing generators, and newer players have issues finding generators let alone totems. The only issue I have with the perk is that it teaches killers bad habits to think "Oh I shouldn't worry if they get all the generators done, I'll just use NOED." I believe that both killers and survivors need to think and play optimally, which NOED directly negates. The perk itself isn't a bad one, it's the message it sends to all other players. That's why I compared it to Mettle, since it rewarded survivors to be found and hit, which teaches bad habits.
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Well originally it wasnt a hex perk. It just activated at the end of the match and there was no counterplay to it.
Then it got nerfed so it only lasted 120 seconds after the gates had been activated (still not really any counterplay)
Then it got turned into a hex perk so survivors could actually counter it now and destroy it before it even had chance to activate it.
This was done as well as reducing the movement speed bonus throughout. (i think it one point it also gave reduced time on missed attacks and this was later scrapped entirely but not too sure)
granted it got a qol update so all tiers now give the exposed status effect. but if people have borrowed time or just cleanse totems, it really doesnt do anything as a good group of survivors can counter it before it even has a chance to activate.
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Thanks for the heads up, I forgot about what it was originally.
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It needs a change for sure imo. It's one of those perks left from the dark ages. Still surprised it hasn't gotten a rework.
I like your suggestion, but it doesn't really fit with the "no one escapes death" name. This could be a good perk though. NOED should still be a endgame perk with a strong effect (one where it doesn't reward failure though).
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It's not 'completely' balanced. If there was a totem counter, then it would be balanced. As it stands, for solos who don't know who is doing totems, if anybody, it's a struggle.
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We're really equating NoED to old MoM and DS? Those weren't just annoying or controversial even, they were game breaking.
Maybe if you equating them to OG forever NoED, but the current version has plenty of counter play.
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Well, like I said, I don't think NOED is game breaking. Just teaches bad habits to anyone playing killer and rewards them for failure. I didn't like DS and MoM was flawed, they taught bad habits to survivors as to "it's okay to be caught because I'll just use DS" or "it's fine the killer found me, I'll just get MoM." That's the same mentality with NOED on killer, that is the issue I have with it. The idea I suggested is to help slow down the game while the game is still active but also make it preventable where survivors can cleanse it's totem. It's a hard perk to balance to any side and no matter someone is going to be left dissatisfied. I hope you understand my view on it, but if not, it's completely fine and you're entitled to your own opinion on the perk and how it should be handled.
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Then why is BT still a thing? It is the very definition of encouraging bad habits.
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Adrenaline rewards the survivors for success, thats not even comparable lols
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BT has issues of it's own, but please like I said, this is a discussion of NOED and I wanted to discuss the issues that NOED holds and how it's mindset is flawed. BT teaches bad habits too, which is undeniable. Should you use the perk to rescue players with the killer nearby will train survivors to do just that, but it's still possible to play optimally and use the perk if the killer is trying to secure a last minute kill (which is where the perk shines). NOED has an issue that rewards failure and teaches bad habits. I won't compare NOED to BT or any other from now on since I want this to be a discussion on this perk exclusively. I probably will make more posts and discussions based off of the other perks that create bad habits. So, please, respect my discussion and let's discuss NOED and not compare it apples to oranges, thanks.
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Then why are people talking about Adrenaline?
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If we keep letting people do totems imma lose my BP'S though D:
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I have no control as to who posts what, I had asked to discuss NOED and NOED's impact on the mentality of players in the game. Your question as to why people are talking about adrenaline is directed to the wrong person. I never once brought up adrenaline, so, please don't ask me why people are discussing it in the comments of my possible NOED rework.
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yeah lets slow the game down even more cause the game still isnt slow enough with ruin pop dying light and thana
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I dont mind the current NOED but if they change it i would want to remove the insta down and replace it with mori.
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Other second chance perks usually require something to be done. Unlike than noed. As killer you don't have to do anything (besides equipping it in the lobby) to get full use out if it. Perks like dead hard require timing, adrenalin requires a good team to do 5 gens etc etc.
If noed had at least some requirements (for example: requires hooking every survivor once to be activated) then it wouldn't feel as bad. Also, solos need a totem counter.
Post edited by justarandy on2 -
NoED either works or it doesn't. A good team of survivors will knock out the totems in anticipation of ruin or NoED.
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But I wish that it’d at least tell you that they have noed once all generators are done because I like to play either solo or duos and sometimes we don’t know if the randoms got any totems or not. Or say on maps like the game and Hawkins and Lerys, the totem spots are in very hard to find places. I know they’re hard to find because I’ve died with ruin or won with ruin never being broken
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Small game exists. Honestly it's such an underrated perk, it's basically anti noed
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I don’t think noed needs a rework right now.
We have other perks that need to be desperately addressed.
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I'm not being rude as I'm genuinely curious, what perk(s) do you think need desperately addressed over NOED? I think NOED could do with a change since it's been in the game for so long promoting the same mentality issue.
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Forgive me but noed punishes bad survivors and currently is in a ok spot.
You could easily prevent it.
other perks that desperately need the rework/ tweak more:
Monstorus shrine
Shadowborn
Mindbreaker
Beast of prey
Insidious
Hangman’s trick
Overwhelming presence
Tinkerer
Furtive chase
and so on.
There are tons of not viable perks that no one wants to use/ or are extremely unhealthy( Insidious)
The devs have limited resources let them work on the ones needed most.
The truth is noed is viable because survivors don’t do totems.
This perk is completely countered by cleansing totems instead of rushing gens.
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Personally I just really want a totem counter.
I wouldn't mind your idea though. It's the first community noed change that didn't boil down to "delete this"
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Thanks! I don't believe perks deserve to be "deleted" as I think perks are unique and awesome. Unfortunately, a lot perks are considered toxic or not fitting in the meta. I want to submit perk rework ideas to make perks fun, viable, but keep their uniqueness.
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An optimal survivor play style includes either a perk to secure totems or totem hunting itself. It’s not hard at all to find and take out five totems. I solo queue as survivor and make it my mission to cleanse totems. I rarely come across NOED and routinely finish atop the survivor scoreboard in my matches or very near it.
Your idea of optimal sounds like it’s spawn, hammer out gens, leave. That’s only optimal in terms of live or die. It doesn’t get you optimal bloodpoints or emblem progress.
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Optimal survivors are the players who have played this game for quite some time and understand the game extremely well. They also make sure to optimize everything extremely well, they can optimize pallet loops by taking longer to throw the pallet, optimize wasting the killer's time, and optimize the gens. An optimal team can finish a match in 5-7 minutes if done correctly. At no point do optimal teams go out of their way to do totems (unless there's ruin, but even then, they can do a great job on skillchecks where it doesn't even matter). Optimal players do not waste time cleansing 5 totems instead of doing generators, that's why killer perks that slow down or delay survivors in any way are the meta ones. The best way to beat optimal survivors is to give them more stuff to waste their time on. If you ednd up wasting time every single game searching for 5 totems (which will set you back 2-3 minutes at least) is not optimal. I'm not saying every player should play like this, but this is the definition of optimal survivors.
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Borrowed Time was meant to counter camping killers, for those who don't know. Comparing Borrowed Time to NOED is ridiculous. My suggestion for a NOED change is that if only 1 survivor remains it doesn't active at all. If 2 remain then only the exposed effect activates. If 3 or 4 remain then both movement speed and exposed effect activates. But that's just my opinion everyone is entitled to theirs too.
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dead hard cant be more nerfed, you press it and you die instantly xD this perk is broken
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Those people are playing optimally in terms of live or die, not how to actually progress in the game. They’ll safety pip and barely crack 12k blood points. Sounds fun.
Perks don’t need to be balanced around these types of players. You’re also making a strong case for NOED as a good perk. If survivors can end a game in 5-7 minutes then there’s zero reason for people to not use NOED on weak killers like uh every M1 killer. At that point you aren’t describing a failure on the killers part you’re describing a poorly balanced game.
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I'd like to point out that the devs have stated that an ideal out come of the game is 2 die 2 escape. This implies the game is balanced around the gates being powered and opened every game. With that being said, gens being completed does not constitute a failure of the killer.
Also, what are these bad habits you speak of? Any serious player will quickly learn that just waiting for NOED to pop to get easy downs will not earn pips or points.
It's possible to 4k before the gens are done and it's possible To 0k with this perk. So I don't think it's OP, it just steam rolls when a team hangs around and doesn't gtfo when they have a chance
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Well, to begin with, the developers saying that "the ideal out come of the game is 2 die 2 escape" is either untrue or completely contradictory of what they've shown. Numerous sections of the killer pipping system is to prevent progression and sacrifices. Both the sacrifice and gate keeper pipping sections are important parts of killer progression, the issue is that killers are complaining the 3 kills and 1 escape warrants a black pip, which is a topic in of itself.
The bad habits I speak of are the mentality of "It's okay to waste time in this chase, if the last gen is done I'll have NOED" or anything similar to that. Killers need to optimize the time they have in order to prevent the survivors from completing the gens, thus bringing the game to it's finale stage. The killer's job is to prevent this stage from even happening, the pipping system also supports this. NOED is a perk that enhances the killler's strength in this finale stage, the stage that shouldn't be desirably to reach, let a lone bring perks for it. Slow down perks are the meta for killers since it prevents survivor progression in reaching the finale stage. Should the survivors reach finale stage, the killer should be pressured to get kills, not be relieved that they can now be faster and get on shot downs, it's the wrong mentality to have in that scenario. Newer killers will then gravitate towards this perk instead of investing in and learning other perks that prevents that stage entirely. This is what I've observed and learned from play time experience, it's fine if you have a different opinion.
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here is my rework idea:
when the last generator is repaired, every remaining dull totem will light up.
gain tokens based on the number of NOED totems.
if you get close to a survivor, press M1 to immediately throw them on the ground and start your mori animation on them. this animation can not be cancelled by eigther the killer nor the survivor.
after killing the survivor, lost 3/2/1 tokens and an equal amount of Hex totems will be destroyed.
if the perk has not enough charges left to perform a kill, the perk deactivates and all NOED totems will turn back to dull totems.
survivor destroying a NOED totem will also remoe 1 charge from the perk.
i went into great detail on why i think this is better in other posts already, so i'll leave it with the basic idea here for now.
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Well, the issue I had with the perk and started the discussion of the rework is that it rewards failure. Unfortunately, I believe the rework idea you suggested would make the situation worse. Moris in of itself is highly controversial, to gain the ability of immediately being able to mori someone off of 0 hooks on that person AND that the killer has failed in their job is the opposite direction I had planned. I really do appreciate your opinion and your suggestion, I just think that the suggestion isn't the direction I think they should move with the perk.
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i have a problem with you saying the perk would reward failure though.
in fact, it actually punishes failure - the survivors failure in completing their secondary objective.
i know many survivors dont want this to be true, but if they had just done totems, they wouldnt have to fight NOED. they brought that uppon themselves.
though, this is something i believe the current NOED is not doing in its full potential. my main problem being that no matter how many totems you did, as long as there is at least one standing, the perk will strike in its full power. and the other way around. no matter how many totems there are left, all they need to do is having this one cursed totem destroyed to completely negate the effect.
and this is where my rework suggestion comes into play: the more totems the survivors did, the less charges my NOED will have, rewarding you for actually searching some totems instead of always striking at full force, therefore making the entire totem hunt seem pointless.
it would also encourage you to do the totems before you repair the last gen - well unless you like mori animations that is.
your idea is just straight up killing the perk, nothing more and nothing less. having it light up before it even gets to activate renders the entire perk utterly useless. if your only concern is nerfing the perk, i will not stand behind that. the perk is already weak enough.
and one more thing: just because you completed 5 gens does not mean you are out yet. you have not won at that point. NOED is just a tool used by killers to show that, even if you came so close everything can be taken from you again in the blink of an eye, because you made some silly little mistake back then (which funnily enough ties in perfectly with the story of the game and the entity feeding on the survivors despair when they see their chances of escape fade away). the perk just allows every killer to get to a deadly new standart: when you can just leave after getting hit once, why not make it so that one strike is actually lethal? that way you will have to leave or risk dying.
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In essence quick matches are a killers. Worst enemy, they need to be in chases, win chases, get hooks and kick gens to get emblems. I do agree they are broken to some degree.
And to a degree I see your point on the mentality it breeds, but that logic can be applied to a hand full of survivor perks as well. Most of which do not have a direct counter, Should those perks that encourage somewhat sloppy play, or require a fail also be scrutinized?
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Well, I'm sorry to say, but, totems are not a secondary objective, they're not even considered optimal to go for. I play in Rank 1 for both killer and survivor where players play optimally more than anything. It is not the survivors job to go out and cleanse 5 totems for a perk that may not even be in play, it's just too much of a waste of time. NOED is hardly used in the higher ranks, and the killers who use it are obviously shown in their skill. The reason I bring up the issues with NOED is that it's harmful for newer players and anyone who wants to learn killer. Your perk proposal is asking for NOED to be essentially buffed (instant mori is toxic in of itself since it enables a killer to tunnel a survivor all game and mori them, I have a similar issue with Rancor but that's for a different discussion). The idea I'm hoping to achieve is a perk rework that can fill the same roll as the previous perk but in a better way. Essentially, the perk NOED is to prevent escapes when the game is reaching it's climax, however, it encourages players to reach the climax in order to receive it's benefits, otherwise it is a useless perk slot.
Based off of the scoring system and overall game flow, the goal of the killer is to stop the survivors as soon as possible with as little progression as possible, the finale should not be a desirable state for the killer to be in. The finale is designed for the killer to get some last minute plays going, but, the match is ultimately over at that point, especially with 2-4 survivors still alive. No perk should make you want to reach this point as a killer. Your perk rework suggestion not only encourages that same issue but buffs it even more by allowing moris (again, controversial topic already). The rework I suggested is designed to slow the game down while the game is still going, while keeping the same lore behind it (the closer they get to escape, the more the entity feeds off of their hope and plunge them into despair).
I appreciate your opinion on the matter and do enjoy discussions, so please don't say I'm "killing the perk" when I'm trying to make it competitively viable and doesn't promote any bad game play habits. Also, I think you got a bit confused when you said "having the perk lit up but not activated" I'm assuming your talking about having the hex totem lit up before the perk activates. This is untrue as the perk is active from the very start of the game, it just gains power with every gen done, on the 3rd completed gen, it turns into a hex totem to be destroyed if found. However, this doesn't mean it wasn't active during the match, if the first gen is completed, the 2nd gen is 10% slower, on the 3rd completed gen, the next one is 20% but now it can be destroyed if sought after. Hope that helps.
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I mean, what else am I supposed to do when Survivors pop the gens like popcorn? I don't run NOED myself, but honestly... you get high rank and watch those gens. Even more from a Killer's perceptive. I feel NOED is used by people tired of games shorting than Lobby q times.
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Well that's the issue, the meta for killer perks right now are all slow down perks. The end game is undesirable to get to for a killer since 2-4 survivors alive makes it hard to get another kill (making NOED still a bad choice) the rework I'm suggesting is designed to help slow down the game, keep the perk similar to its intended lore and previous ability, and not be seen as a "toxic" perk.
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I mean i'm not arguing you, but it's insane how higher rank people make the game so bleh by just rushing it so hard. I honestly get to feeling like "What was I supposed to do about that?" when the gens start poppin.
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