Why I believe Pipping Shouldn't be Considered a "Win"
"As a Killer, your goal is to sacrifice as many Survivors as possible". "As a Survivor, your goal is to escape and avoid being caught and killed."
First of all I respect all your opinions on this topic but I'm going to share my reasoning on why people shouldn't worry about pipping as a "win" condition. The two quotes I just stated above are my first reasoning as to why pipping is not a win condition. Nowhere does it say that you have to gain "pips" to win. It says that your goal is to sacrifice or escape. Nothing more. All pips really are stated to do in game are to make sure you are ranked within a certain skill group of players. To separate the noobs from the red ranks mainly. My second argument is that if your a survivor/killer and everyone is equally skilled then you can still win and get a black pip. That doesn't mean you lost or tied. You still won because you completed both your objectives. People who think pipping counts as winning can you please leave your thoughts on why you think so? Feedback is always appreciated.
Comments
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It's all theoretical, and doesn't matter. Did you have fun? Congrats, you win.
If you can't have fun with out escaping or getting your 4k (your idea of winning) then I wish you the best enjoying this game long term.
I don't care about pips, I want at least 2-3k, but realistically nothing more, because the higher rank I go the more toxic survivors I find the game and the less fun I have. At a certain point it doesn't matter if I'm piping or killing, because it just want a good experience.
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No No No No No No No.
Fun is not a valid wincon! Why do people keep acting like it is?
If your describing how a round of dead by daylight and someone after hearing what happened asks "ok great but did you win?" You don't say yes if the Killer absolutely wrecked you and toyed with you for 5 minutes in the form of a somewhat enjoyable psudo-roleplay ending in you dying to devour.
You can't qualify fun and having fun isn't itself an accomplishment. An outside observer watching the game cannot use that criteria to determine a win and most importantly, you can't balance around it.
A wincon is not just how you personally like to play, or even what you want to accomplish in a game*. A wincon is the task the game is presenting to you. While any game can be useful or fulfilling only a round in which you complete the wincon can truly be called a successful round. You may succeed at something other than the trial itself but in order to succeed at a trial (as opposed to succeeding at some other task inside of a trial) you MUST complete the wincon.
And as per the tutorial of the game that wincon is the sacrifice the Survivors or if you are a Survivor to escape the trial.
No one is forcing you to attempt to win. However you do need to accept that the game is designed around the assumption that you will do so, and thus not playing towards the wincon can risk a suboptimal experience.
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Y'know technically the killer's goal is to please the entity, not just kill everyone. If you please the entity by doing all the emblem scoring events you double pip. Which means you were merciless, yet you still did your main job. Kinda why the game doesn't always say "entity displeased" if all 4 escape. If you did your job well enough to do what the entity demanded then you "win" hence a double pip
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You are not a real killer naaaaah. The entity is too often displeased by tombstone michael.
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It's a personal thing.
As a survivor i want to pip to get out of green ranks. Just want to get decent team mates (not saying a green is bad, but once I started playing with other purples or high reds i noticed a big difference)
As killer all i want is my 4 stacks of bbq. That's a win, and try to make a good time for everyone. I can barely go higher than rank 15 so toxic teams are not an often sight
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Obviously this means we should tie pipping/winning to Kills and Escapes. ;)
I always found it weird whenever people go "I judge winning by whether or not I have fun!" To me, it's a byproduct of the game having poorly established player wincons that force people to have to decide for themselves what a win means to them. Like, sure, the tutorial says you gotta Kill and Escape respectively, but in practice, that ain't how the game sees it.
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yeah, if you say something is a wincon you need to be able to actually apply it. For example:
if all 4 BBQ: Stacks = win then doesn't that mean anyone who hasn't found BBQ in the shrine and hasn't purchased Leatherface automatically loses due to being unable to get stacks on a perk they don't have?
That's literally pay to win.
Also it implies that a ton of perks are completely useless, for example Devour hope requires hooking people multiple times, past the first time hooking each person is redundant since you've already gotten your stack and thus they don't push your objective. And when you eventually start moring it's negative utility since you can sometimes instantly lose if you Mori the wrong person
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Good sir, it's simple, you can get a 6 in an exam (C-) and pass it, but you could've gotten a 10 (A+). Who do you think is a good doctor, the one who passed his surgery exam with C- or the one who got an A+? Who would you pick to have surgery with?
Now, lets pass those examples to DBD, who is actually a better killer? The one who got a 2k+ without piping or the one who got a 2k+ and piped or the one who got a 2k+ and double piped?
It's as simple as that. Yes, getting a 4k and no pip implies you did your job, but that was a lame C- right there, give yourself a challenge by not camping or tunneling to get that A+ man.
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Except that's not true since that's not how the pipping system works.
You get pips based off arbitrary tasks that are only indirectly related to the actual wincondition (with the exception of Unbreakable for Survivors).
So it's like of that same Surgery exam was completely ignoring your ability to save the patient and only cared about how much movement you made and the number of steps you took to complete the assignment.
Sure those things are related to preforming a Surgery, but it also means that someone using a super efficient but wrong method can pass while someone doing a more complicated but more effective method would fail.
Such an examination method would not reliably judge you based off how effective you are at preforming Surgery.
This is like that, however it's worse because it's the other way around. Someone using a drawn out and inefficient strategy which thus has a higher failure rate is more likely to pip than someone who wins as efficiently as possible, even though the second player is the better player due to being more effective.
So in the case of DBD all 3 of the Killers who got those 2k's failed their job. Even if they pipped they still failed to accomplish the task they were given. The person who 4k'ed succeeded.
So someone who consistently 4k black pips is better than a Killer who consistently 2k double pips. Who cares what grade your surgeon got if all his other patients died in his care? And I wouldn't care if my surgeon got a poor grade on an arbatrary test if his patients all got through to Surgery with no issue.
Pips track your process, but it's the end result that matters.
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If pipping is winning the billy needs buffed and legion needs nerfs.
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You're missleading the example, in both cases the doctor would've saved the patient, but the guy with C- would've left a horrible scar and many tissue exposed damage, meanwhyle the A+ would've propperly done everything and left no damage.
Apples compared with apples dude, not apples with watermelons, lol
For DBD, a killer who got a 4k no pips was just hardcore having an easy game (camped, tunneled, moried on sight), yes, he did his job, but the killer who let the survivors actually have a chance, didn't camp, didn't tunnel, didn't mori on first chance and double piped is a god tier killer, he made himself have a hard game and still got the 4k. I just compared a 4k with a 4k, apples vs apples, I could've given you a mixed example like you did to subjectivize this argument though, a 4k double pip ain't better than a 2k no pip?
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What about when I don’t tunnel or camp? If I’m good enough to snowball a whole team then I clearly won if I got them all down quickly, but based on pips, I lost? It takes a lot more skill to snowball than too have a really long game and following the ‘pips= win’ logic, someone dcing means that I auto-lose.
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The point is that the pipping system DOESN'T track wins.
It's not that it tracks degrees of wins, but that it's an entirely different scale. You can win and pip, win and not pip, lose and pip and lose and not pip.
However its the win vs loss that allows you to determine success, not pip vs nopip.
So it's like the test looks for the scars but completely ignores if the patient lives or not.
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OBVIOUSLY there are lacks on every rule, a 4k early game no pips without camping or tunneling is one of them. But that ain't what normally happens. Red and Purple Ranks will practically never let you do that for example. Piping is not a "you win rule" but it's the most objective way of knowing you did what you had to.
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I just made a poll about this, and actually the answers are quite clear, people think a win is a win depending on their perception, I cannot assure PIPing is a win, but neither a 4k no pip. It depends on the person, for example, if I got a 4K no pips I feel like trash cause I know I didn't give myself a challenge, but sometimes a 2k double pip let's me feel like the game was a tie. It depends on the person's perpective.
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"Apples compared with apples, not apples with watermelons"
*Proceeds to compare a slasher video game to medical surgery*
Also, it's irrelevant what people think a win condition is, or what makes them feel like they've won. That doesn't make it the case. It sounds harsh, but seems applicable here: facts don't care about your feelings. And neither do game designers.
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Ok well then it's still irrelevant.
Over multiple games the best player is the one who wins the most consistently.
If the most consistent way to win includes slugging and camping then I'd expect the best player to do these things.
If it turns out that those strategies aren't the best, then someone should be able to use alternative strategies to have successful results more consistently.
That hypothetical camping Killer will lose against Survivors that recognize the strategy and rush gens instead. THAT is why camping is bad, it's difficulty or fairness is irrelevant since as a Killer you should be trying to make things as easy and unfair in your favor as possible in order to maximize your winrate.
Camping is only bad (in the strategic sense) because it won't win you the game against Survivors that know how to counter it. If countering camping was extremely difficult and left you worse off anyways then it wouldn't be a bad strategy.
This is why we can conclude that Gen rushing is an excellent strategy. If you gen rush the Killer won't have enough time to accomplish anything thus allowing you to escape without much resistance. The fact that it's an easy and lame strategy is irrelevant, we aren't asking if it's a fun strategy we are asking if it's a successful strategy.
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If this were a competitive game it say escapes and kills. But it's really not. As much as it will drive NuclearBurrito nuts this really is a game of arbitrary win cons. If I could have escaped, but decided to save a teammate instead did I lose? If I play a really great game and facilitate others escape as a result is that a loss? Not to me it isn't. This really is the kind of game where the only thing that matters is achieving your goal. Whether your goal is a 4k, a double pip, an escape, or grinding out as many points as you can.
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The question isn't subjective. People are wrong a lot.
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This is a competitive game.
The opposite of competitive is cooperative, not casual. This is not a cooperative game since it is PvP. Mario party is competitive as well and that game doesn't even have a ranking system.
Saving someone and dying is still a loss. That's what makes it altruistic.
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Homie. It's a game. I play both, and i have fun even dying immediately, because I got to experience a fun chase, and try to loop him, and he was obviously better than me. I play killer, and even if ruin gets taken immediately, they pop 3 gens by first hook and I'm chasing a toxic nea who teabags after each pallet drop, I'm still having fun. I'm thinking of what to do to win, to pull it back and win. Winning is the end goal, but you "win" even if you lose, because you got bloodpoints, the xp from the match and the experience of going against a survivor/killer that was interesting, and fun to play against. It doesn't need to be a out and out competition. If you enjoy the game, no matter what. You're winning.
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I win when have fun
Ez
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I guess by competitive I mean an esports kind of game. I've never seen this game as competitive in an esports sense or otherwise. Yes you are playing PvP. But it's not a 1v1. If it were 1v1 a win or loss would be obvious. A 1v4 becomes murkier. At least in my opinion. I know we aren't going to agree here. I seem to remember this topic came up months ago and your stance was the same.
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That's not a good comparison, though. A doctor's exam and a pip result serve completely different purposes; a doctor's exam determines whether the test taker is qualified to enter a particular field and is a gauge for all future performance. A single pip result does nothing but tell someone how well they did in one single game (and even then, it doesn't do a good job of that due to the particulars of the emblem system). Sure, a doctor who scored an A+ is likely going to fare better than someone who passed by the skin of their teeth, but an individual game result does nothing to determine the overall skill of a player.
That's because the game does a bad job of establishing what a win is. I am willing to bet that if DBD adopted Identity V's win system, people wouldn't be nearly as inclined to say "I don't care about that; if I had fun or did my own self-set challenge, that means I won!" You don't see people playing Mario Party going "I won because I managed to pass every space on the board at least once!"
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The reason people use pipping as a way of telling a win or a loss is because it's the only metric we get. We could measure Bloodpoints I suppose since most of the categories correlate much more to the core gameplay than emblems, but it's silly to ignore that for many people ranking up is a goal.
Fun isn't a win condition, fun is subjective and irrelevant to winning or losing, and what some people find fun has been made bannable by the Dev team(exploits and such).
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Its competitive in the same way UNO and as you said Mario Party is competitive.
When people say casual it means there is minimal skill and a lot of rng involved to the point where win conditions are irrelevant and blurred.
If you and i had a 1v1 on the board game candy land would the win condition be fun or getting to the end of the board?
If you choose end of the board did it matter more than the fun condition when it was rng card pulling that got you that win?
Asymmetrical games imo cannot be competitive in the same way Overwatch/CSGO/CoD/BF etc can be.
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The win conditions in Mario Party and Uno are neither blurred nor irrelevant, though.
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I'd like to remind you that if you play Mario Party and get the most stars you won't be happy if someone declares that they won because they got the most items or something else like that.
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They are by RNG dice rolls.
Its the same with DbD when a game changing tile is there or not or if a god window is blocked.
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These are not mutually exclusive statement.
Heck the same reasoning applies to Poker which actually IS a tournament geared activity.
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I didn't say they are not RNG-heavy. I said their wincons are not blurred and irrelevant. They are very clearly laid out, and the path to those wincons is well-understood, even if it is riddled with random twists and turns along the way.
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You are correct that "fun" and "wincon" can go hand in hand but both are completely separate entities.
While winning the match isn't the most important thing (unless you are playing with a truly competitive mindset, and there is nothing wrong with that) it is still the intended goal of the match. Fun is simply a byproduct of the overall experience and your attitude towards it.
I don't play Scratch Mirror Myers with the intention of getting a 4k or getting a "pip" but rather to scare people. If I managed to scare everyone and they all escaped then sure I "won" my personal goal but I still lost the match.
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You have problems, fun is a win factor and so is pipping, the problem started when you seperated survivor gamers from killer gamers, its the same freaking game! way to divide ppl, Since there are no official win conditions, we made our own, pipping up is a win because you did enough that the game considered your actions enough to pip, (did game objectives) you can get a 4k and no pip, you can escape the killer and get a depip, thats why pipping is considered winning it works for both, but you seem like you dont want everyone to win, there can only be one winner, thats some loser mentality.
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Piping is just the game showing you that you have done the most for the team, so while rank isn't really important, getting pips is a very good indicator of "win"
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"you seem like you dont want everyone to win, there can only be one winner, thats some loser mentality"
No, that's just a pretty fundamental part of games: Not everyone is declared a winner.
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30k+ bp with 4 BBQ stacks is a win. To hell with rank
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Winning is determined by score. Escaping with 7k blood points is hardly celebration worthy and 4king with 10k bloodpoints is equally unsatisfying. At its core the end game score is the only means we have to know who came out ahead in the match. Ranking up doesn't affect anything outside of the people you play.
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I find a low-score multi-RBT kill 4k pretty damn satisfying. ;)
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How is someone supposed to win if they don't have BBQ then?
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I personally don't care much after I've gotten to rank 1 but then I gain the feeling that I belong there or close to it. But I usually consider it a win because if I'm moving up the ranks with pops to me it means I'm doing good enough to progress which equals a win to me even if I die it means I did enough.
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Flawed as the entire ranking system is, pips are a concrete, measurable performance metric.
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In sports games, substitute players who sit on a bench the entire game can still win despite not taking part in any of the actual activities because they had fulfilled the game's winning condition. Their performance doesn't matter as long as the winning condition of the game has been satisfied. Many games are like that - sometimes the most skilled players don't end up winning, whether it is due to other players' performance or simply due to bad luck. This holds especially true in asymmetrical social deduction games.
Similarly, a sport player may be selected as MVP of the Year, not because he/she won the games, but because of his outstanding performance and activity level in those games. On the other hand, players who sit on the bench may have won every single game, but would never be selected as a MVP.
That's basically what "pipping" is. Were you given the chance to perform well, and then proceed to actually perform well? Great, you pipped - but that has nothing to do with whether you survived or not - which is the actual winning condition. You do rank up/down though, and will be (or should be) placed in matches with similar skill level, which is the overall purpose of pipping and ranking.
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They're all trapped in a hell of the entity's making. There is no winning or losing.
I'm just here for the cosmetics.
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I don't care honestly as long as I get a pip I was in the red ranks before rank reset now I'm on my way back now
If I get a 4k then great if I get a 3k then that's still a win same with a 2k just not a 1k
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Actually, I try not to pip into red ranks. Most of my fun happens in green ranks
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Thank you! It's a game. The goal is to have fun and be entertained. I have probably a 55/45 escape/die ratio but I enjoy the game about 95% of the time. (Nobody can avoid ALL of the toxicity)
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Winning is fun for me. Is my fun not important because it differs from your definition?
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bps and survivor puddings also count as a win in that case
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So doesn't that mean it's mathematically impossible to win your first game?
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Also in that case all other offerings would need a major buff.
Since without BBQ they all instantly guarantee your loss
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