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Key Rework Suggestion.
Most people know the biggest 2 issues with balance at the moment are keys and moris. Both end the game incredibly prematurely and greatly reduce the points available for one side. They also lack fair counterplay. Keys may be countered by Franklin's Demise somewhat but the key can still be picked up and used, and there is no way to defend against a key obtained within a match, which is a common occurrence when using Plunderer's Instinct.
Greatly increase the "Mind Channel" duration for each key.
The first step to fixing keys is that they should be more useful within a match outside of the hatch-opening ability. The current values for broken/dull/skeletor keys are 10/5/30 seconds with a possible 25 seconds added through add ons.
I believe this should be reworked to 20/30/40 seconds, increasing with rarity. Aura reading can be strong within a match. Using the token add ons as a temporary bond, or using the blood amber to watch a killer within a chase are very strong effects that nobody ever uses, because their only intention with a key is to open the hatch. 99/100 times, the only add ons seen on a key are "Don't lose your key" add ons.
Additionally, like the Rainbow Map, higher tiers of key could have specific aura reading built in by default to reduce the reliance on add ons.
All keys can open the hatch.
In order to remove the broken key as the most useless piece of rubbish in the game, particularly when you open a chest to find one that cannot be used for anything, all keys will uniformly be able to open the hatch in the same way.
Opening the Hatch requires a short channel.
Nothing huge, it should just be enough that being in the middle of a chase with the killer breathing down your neck doesn't instantly end the game by pressing M1. Either this could scale 9/7/5 seconds, or be 5 across the board. Basically enough time that if you try it in the killer's face you can't escape due to a blade wipe.
All keys start broken.
The broken key should be renamed. This could be the Tarnished Key, or the Rusted Key. All keys start the match as a broken key, indicated by their icon being similar to the broken key but with their correct rarity. This indicates they only function for aura reading.
Opening the Hatch has a condition.
Opening the hatch is only possible when the gates are powered. (Includes when gens are completed, as well as when the hatch has been shut by the killer.)
This changes how game-breaking keys are. They retain their ability to open the hatch and completely change the outcome of a match, but do not allow multiple survivor a free escape and bonus points halfway through a match.
Hatch automatic shut changed.
Using keys currently keeps the hatch open for 30 seconds, then it shuts. It means that keys are basically a SWF item, as they require communication to gather everyone up at the hatch and all escape in quick succession.
In order to balance this between SWF and solo, each key has a set number of escapes:
- Tarnished Key will shut the hatch after 1 survivor escapes through it.
- Dull Key will shut the hatch after 2 survivors escape through it.
- Skeleton Key will not shut the hatch. Does not prevent the killer closing it.
Note: This would not override the default hatch mechanics. If all but one survivor exits the hatch using the key, the hatch will then open normally for the last survivor anyway, meaning the maximums would actually be 2/3/4 survivors out the hatch. This retains the ability to obtain the "Where Did They Go" trophy in basically identical circumstances.
TLDR:
Improved aura reading durations to make keys more useful outside of hatch opening.
All keys can open the hatch, but only if the gates are powered. (5 gens or hatch shut) This requires a short channel, and allows more survivors to use the hatch with increased rarity of the key.
This means games do not end halfway and reward terrible points for killers who otherwise did nothing wrong. It still grants options for escape in difficult endgame situations, and can secure your escape as a solo survivor when the hatch gets shut.
Comments
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More survivor type nerfs from the killer forums I see
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Only if you view it through completely biased eyes.
I think both keys and moris need to be changed because they both have basically the same issues. This is just a suggestion for keys.
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Needing all gens done to use the hatch is clearly killer biased. I agree.
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Imagine having 1 gen left, and everyone on death hook. (3 people.) Oh, welp they opened hatch and all got out, making me get entity displeased. Stop being biased.
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Im not being biased. I have had survivors escape that way on me. Perhaps you should have stopped so many gens being done. That a simple fix for you to do. Just like cleansing to stop noed. Same thing.
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Keys are in need of nerfs IMO, to be fair.
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As for OP's, eeeeeehhhhhhh? When they stop being good at being a key, why even make them keys to begin with?
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The only issue with keys is that they end games prematurely with basically no requirement except surviving the first 2 minutes.
I don't see any way they could be balanced without removing the ability to cheese it out the hatch halfway through a match.
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You are very much right about the problem with keys, but I think that your suggestion is a biiiiiit too heavyhanded?
How would you feel if the Killer had the ability to break a Key?
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I'd feel like there'd NEVER be a reason to bring a key at all, because they're so inherently broken that no killer would leave one unbroken. It would just be 7000 bloodpoints I'm never getting back.
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If a Survivor wishes, they can always hide the Key to pick up later, hoping the Killer does not find it by chance. That seems like a way to sorta play around that.
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So then how is that any better balance-wise than keys now? It has all the exact same issues except you have to walk for 5 extra seconds to grab the key out of the bush next to your spawn point.
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I don't like the "all keys open hatch" and "all generators need to be powered to use the key" changes, but I understand the reasoning behind it.
Instead what is very interesting is the change between time until the hatch closes to how many survivors use the hatch. One possible change would be:
- Dull key: the hatch opens for one survivor only, then stays closed for 20 seconds no matter what (to prevent a double escape if only two survivors remain)
- Skeleton key: exactly like dull key if there's still at least 1 generator left (or maybe make it usable for 2 survivors instead of just 1). When all generators are powered, the hatch stays open for 30 seconds (as it is now, for achievement purposes).
Plus, if it's not already like this, prevent skeleton keys spawning in chests if you don't have special perks.
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Because if the Killer saw that you had the Key in the lobby and then sees that you don't, then they know that you have hidden the Key somewhere. Unless you wasted time scouring the map for a good hiding spot, then it is safe to assume that the Key is not too far from where you found them (since they are likely going to go to the closest gen from where they dropped the Key, for the sake of not wasting time). The Killer doesn't have to go out of their way to find the Key until it is either necessary or safe to do so.
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It would definitely be an option, limit it to one person until the end of the match.
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Ok so instead of everyone escaping because a key opens the hatch, everyone escapes because you have to spend 20 minutes searching every centimeter of the map for the tiniest, hardest to see model in the game that could be literally anywhere.
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Maybe the solution lies in perks for both Moris and Keys? Either brand new perks or buffs to existing ones?
Franklins lvl 3 for instant can maybe make a key only useable by the person holding it, like puts a curse on it? Once that survivor jumps through hatch it closes.
Of course survivors can hide the key and pick it up at end game to prevent this but it would be a risky work around for them.
For Moris maybe a new perk can be created that either delays it so survivors must be on death hook, or just straight up nulls them. The killer simply wouldn't get the kill prompt.
Yes, these would be extreme perks but they are also very specific perks (such as left behind). You run the risk of 'wasting' a perk slot and never using it. However, if either of these two things REALLY bother you, then boom, problem solved and no more complaining about Moris and Keys.
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If you are dedicating all your time to finding it, you are probably doing it wrong. It's like the one person who is so dedicated to protecting their totem that the Survivors finish the gens anyways.
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They already do. It's called Franklin's Demise.
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Both you and I know that is not going to realistically happen.
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more survivor bias, I see
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I'd break every key put in front of me and laugh madly the whole time. Just figured i'd confirm it for you.
Are you kidding? Not to be rude, but If you have to look for the Key everywhere, which is UTTERLY TINY and dark so it's very easy to miss, then you would never find it unless you got lucky enough to win the lottery.... or kobe a hook.
Franklin's Demise would take a million hits to break a key. In fact...
The lost Item is damaged in the fall, losing 0/5/10 % of its base amount of charges.
so if we take that, then it would take 10 hits to break a Key. That's if the survivor is stupid enough to
- Pick it up every time for 10 hits instead of leaving it till the hatch appears
- gets hit 10 times without dying and doesn't tell his friends where the key fell with Voice or pointing.
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Hey, worst-case scenario, you could always make the Key more visible.
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Ok yes you're right to an extent, I agree. But it really doesn't help vs many survivors with multiple keys and I hate the perk argument. Nobody should suggest any perk for this kind of op stuff, even towards survs.
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Just remember that there is the trophy for all survivors leaving through the hatch at the same time. So whatever you change about them can’t screw that up as it requires keys
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it better be neon with a sign pointing down going "Break this now!" XD
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I see everyone suggesting Iron Will to survivors to counter Spirit, so you know, it's fair game.
If anything I'd love to see Franklin's removed from the game. There aren't many perks more annoying than Franklin's. Nothing like bringing in a nice item and losing it or having it rendered unusable thanks to Franklin's.
Imagine if Survivors had a perk that let them disable a killer's add-ons.
And to those who say Franklin's is not a way to break the key...
Well yes, Franklin's may not break the key. But in many cases it's as good as gone, and oftentimes you forget where you got hit in the heat of the chase. The key is ridiculously hard to find, and many times even knowing where I got hit it's a challenge to find it. You can waste a lot of time searching for it.
It's a strong counter to any item and it's more than enough counter play for the key, and there are other ways to counterplay against the key. I should know, I bring keys a lot and I get tunneled the crap out for it. Killers just need to be attentive in the lobby, that's what you have the lobby for right?
And you can notice survivors carrying keys in the game if they fished it out of a chest. I have noticed fellow survivors with the key at times and was surprised because they didn't have it in the lobby.
I just find this talk of breaking survivor items hilarious, I mean what if we could break Trapper's traps and they don't regenerate? This tips the game way too much in favor of killers again. Keys are the last good item Survivors have left that haven't been put through the nerf bat wringer.
And all this while Ebony Moris are still 100% unchallenged? Sorry, but I gotta take a stand.
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Franklin's is not a magical solution to how unbalanced keys are. Even if we're going to shove our head where the sun doesn't shine and pretend survivors just ignore where they drop the key, it isn't feasible to bring a perk every match IN CASE they're running Plunderer's.
If you loot chests with Plunderer's it's pretty damn close to 50/50 if you get a key each match. There's no way to adjust your perks to a survivor whipping one out, there's no counterplay to a key besides tunneling someone to death for having one and crossing your fingers and hoping nobody else picks it up off their corpse. (Especially when SWF can say in comms "Hey, there's a key where I died!")
This isn't about "breaking survivor items." Keys should be improved in their active ability, and made into an actual usable item that helps through a match, rather than the 5-10 second use jokes with no ability outside of add ons. This is about fixing fundamentally broken aspects of the game.
And again, I'm not saying "nerf keys and leave moris how they are." I think they both have the exact same issue of ending games far too early, and unjustly losing other players huge amounts of points and emblems for almost no effort.
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It's not a magical solution, but it doesn't have to be. It is enough to deal with the problem most of the time, and second keys aren't really that unbalanced.
I know your stance on it, I read the thread, but most games with keys really don't end that prematurely. You need to SWF to even get everyone in the hatch for the most part. And even then enough gens had to have been completed to allow it.
It can be annoying if you killed 1, 1 gen left and all 3 left, but it's not that big a deal. How often have you seen that anyway? It's not easy to pull off. More likely one guy is just gonna leave and you can kill the last two at your leisure.
If one guy is managing to escape with most gens still undone, just let him have it. You already won. You already killed three of them.
You want to talk about can't adjust perks? Survivors can't even see the killer in the lobby. How many times have I brought a healing loadout only to be matched against Plague? How many time I wished I brought Iron Will when I got a Spirit? Or Urban Evasion for Hag? Perk regret isn't a killer-only thing and believe me Survivors have it much worse.
50/50 Plunderer key fishing is false. Don't exaggerate. I should know, I run Plunder builds all the time.
Keys are strong, but they have more than enough counterplay. And while having Franklin's is nice, it isn't needed. You can counter keys even without a build. You just need to tunnel the keybearer. Many survivors won't even notice and won't pick up the key at the hook.
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A channel around 5 seconds for opening the hatch should be enough of a nerf, so the key user can't open the hatch mid chase, but keys would still be fairly strong.
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If tunneling camp is a legit strategy for killers keys are it for survivor. Keys are find stop wanted nerf item from survivor
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This is a bit more reasonable. I don't like it because I would have to use the key instantly when I find the hatch and can't wait till the last moment, but it's reasonable.
The OP suggestion is to much of a hatchet job.
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"I should know, I run Plunder builds all the time."
Cool, so we know why you're vehemently against them getting balanced.
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But...you know that the hatch is there anyway when one surv is left? Just asking you seem pretty new to the game.
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"Imagine if Survivors had a perk that let them disable a killer's add-ons."
Maybe if the Killers had a way to re-enable those add-ons the way a Survivor can just pick up something they dropped, that would be potentially reasonable. :P
"Well yes, Franklins may not break the key. But in many cases it's as good as gone, and oftentimes you forget where you got hit in the heat of the chase. The key is ridiculously hard to find, and many times even knowing where I got hit it's a challenge to find it. You can waste a lot of time searching for it."
Not really, no. If you remember the general area where you got hit, you can just go back there when it is convenient to do so and pick it up. The key is not close to lost.
"It's a strong counter to any item and it's more than enough counter play for the key, and there are other ways to counterplay against the key. I should know, I bring keys a lot and I get tunneled the crap out for it. Killers just need to be attentive in the lobby, that's what you have the lobby for right?"
The only item Franklin's is really worth bringing in against IMO is the toolbox because they have to either go out of their way to pick up the toolbox again or leave it for later and do gens as normal, which both allows breathing room for the Killer. Also, hard tunneling the Survivor only works if a) that Survivor isn't great because otherwise they are just wasting your time exactly as planned while the gens are being done b) that Survivor isn't playing SWF because otherwise their teammate just grabs the key, rendering all that tunneling to stop the key play pointless c) somehow no one else in the lobby saw that X person had a key because nothing exactly stops them from doing the same thing
"I just find this talk of breaking survivor items hilarious, I mean what if we could break Trapper's traps and they don't regenerate? This tips the game way too much in favor of killers again. Keys are the last good item Survivors have left that haven't been put through the nerf bat wringer."
Keys are not the one thing that prevents the Killers from being crazy OP. This is the same logic people against nerfing insta-heals use, as well as the people who claim nerfing Moris will make the games unwinnable for Killers.
"And all this while Ebony Moris are still 100% unchallenged? Sorry, but I gotta take a stand."
Not every discussion about nerfing Keys or Moris need to also discuss nerfing the other side too.
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To support you, it would take 10 hits with Franklin's to BREAK a key. What survivor will let you hit them 10 times while they hold a key? They would even have to pick it up EVERY TIME so they could drop it again to damage it! What survivor in there right mind wouldn't just leave that key there, knowing you have Franklin's, then come back later for it.
Franklin's does nothing against Keys other than making you drop it once.
Also, for the record? Trapper traps used to not respawn after they got broken.... neither did hooks.
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And being able to break Trapper's traps for 4 minutes at the cost of 15 seconds and 1/10th of a brown toolbox still exists. That's basically enough to win the game if you all just do one.
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Yeah cause then Trapper has no traps for a long time, nullifying his power.
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The aura reading part of keys is definetly underpowered, an personally I don't like when someone uses the hatch and leaves teammates behind to die to the EGC. This seems like a good sidegrade to me.
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I like some of these ideas but i don't understand the "all keys start broken" like do they change after the match? also I agree with the small charge time to open the hatch, its a nice nerf.
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It would basically just be to show that the key can only be used to read auras like a broken key now. Once the conditions were met to open the hatch it would become a full key.
That way you would never have a "key" standing on the hatch and not be able to open it, you'd have a broken one.
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I do agree with some of these. However, maybe instead of a flat 5 seconds, it should be a flat three. Second, There has to be less than 3-number of survivors left to open the hatch. Third, how about each key actually does something besides opening? So you wouldn't have to run an add-on, and after you use the time with the key, only then it can be used to open a lock.
Fourth, what else uses a black lock? Why can't there be any other form of black lock that survivors can find, maybe unlocking one of the doors in The Game, or a hallway?
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I went with 5 seconds so that it can't be used in the blade wipe animation. You couldn't tank a hit on the hatch and open it in the time a killer takes to wipe their blade.
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Ah, understandable, but I thought you'd be able to grab them if they were opening, and make it so in the event they do end up opening, you just grab em as they try to go through. I believe blood wipe is around three seconds, so maybe 4 would be better.
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