Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
I'm sorry to everyone who said keys need nerfing...
I have always thought that keys just as they were were fine. Because they had counters. Not perfect hard counters, but counters nonetheless. Hard counters are bad for this game, after all.
But it seems the recent "change" to Plunderers has introduced a hard counter to the soft counter to keys that was Franklin's Demise.
Now, even if you make survivors drop the keys, we can just see them again! Oh yeah!
(To be clear: I don't like the changes to Plunderer's because now I can't see chests that were opened by other unscrupulous survivors who were so greedy they dared to open one of my rightful legally-entitled chests. That means I may be running around the map looking for the third chest but it's already been opened!)
But for all you who depend on Franklin's to counter items, sorry. Now my perk counters yours. In a fashion.
Comments
-
To be honest that should have just been a base thing any way seeing dropped items
2 -
Hey well good news and bad news. Good news, you won't have to deal with Franklin's anymore. Bad news, Killers have the perfect hard counter to any key/perk.
0 -
I thought they made that change years ago to counter Franklin's.
0 -
Nope if your key was hit by it especially in a dense grass area it was gone forever
1 -
Naw Plunderers never did that. It's really hard to find stuff you dropped, especially keys, which were dropped in the middle of a chase and in the heat of the moment you forgot where exactly you got whacked. And as OCAF said, if it happened in a grassy area forget it, just work on your gens.
Anyway, I find this change unusual because survivors perks usually don't directly counter a killer's perks (it's usually the other way around), but in this case it does.
2 -
This is curious to me because I've seen you complain about BBQ and Chili many, many times even though the perk has at least 4 soft counters to it.
So you think a hard counter to that perk is warranted but a hard counter to Keys is not?
6 -
whys that
1 -
Honestly thought Franklin's was a bad counter anyway. Literally just drop your tool somewhere and pick it up when you're exiting. At least Franklin's is still good for something, Hitting everyone and immediately disconnecting.
1 -
Absolutely. You see, the problem with BBQ isn't that it doesn't have counters. It's that it's ubiquity utterly kills the stealth paradigm.
When something becomes meta, that's a sign that it needs a change. Even though BBQ is meta not because of its Aura Reading but because of its BP Gains, the fact is 90% of killers run it (I made that stat up but I don't think it's too far off the mark), so that means that 90% of killers everywhere have the ability to see where you are whenever they hook someone.
That is just bad for the game, because it utterly destroys stealth play.
It is the ubiquity and prevalance of BBQ that is the problem.
Keys aren't a problem in this way because they aren't everywhere. People who run around using plunderers like me are extremely rare. In fact I'd bet a lot of killers would be happy to see more survivors running Plunderers instead of DS, BT, Adrenaline and Dead Hard. They are also rare in the bloodweb so you aren't going to go into every match expecting a key.
Whereas right now you go into every match expecting the killer to pack BBQ.
2 -
Have you ever played survivor for a good amount of time and gone up against a killer using Franklin's?
Believe me, Franklins is a great counter. It is one of the most annoying perks in the game. It just actively prevents you from executing your gameplan. A survivor enters the match carrying a tool they want to use. they have an idea how they want the game to go. Be it healing, breaking hooks, gen rushing or exiting via the hatch. Franklins whacks you once and puts a stop to your dreams and ambitions and disrupts your entire gameplan for that game.
I am glad that not more killers run Franklins, I would honestly quit the game if Franklin's became Meta. I do not like things that prevent me from playing the way I planned to play. That's why I don't like killers like Plague (who shuts down an entire branch of game mechanics just by existing) and that's why I don't like Franklin's.
Franklins is a pain in the ass. Imagine if survivors had a perk that disabled killer-addons for 30 seconds everytime they finished a gen or dropped a pallet or made you vault a window or something. Killers would be up in arms with torches and pitchforks. That's what Franklin's feels like.
2 -
BBQ does have counters for stealth players:
- lockers
- gen auras
- discordance
- sole survivor
- being inside the TR
Those are just 5 off the top of my head... but I've heard there are 7 out there in total.
I suppose it's a symptom of the grind that's in place. If the grind wasn't so bad, I don't think BBQ would be as prevalent... but then I have a feeling you'd find another perk to complain about.
4 -
Yeah, how many 4 man old instaheals/keys/BNPs teams have you gone against? Having a counter to that is necessary for the game's health...
But if you say that, then shouldn't the killer be able to have their own way of playing the game? Or is it an example of: For me, but not for thee?
2 -
"When something becomes meta it needs a change"
Dead Hard for distance has zero counter play, wheres the nerf, it's a common strategy with a very common perk, But bbq which has built in counters needs nerfing? Keys allow you to end the game early just for equipping and item at the start game screen (sounds like another item I hear needs nerfing alot).
2 -
Killers do have their own way. What way exactly are you saying I am against?
And to be honest, killers get to dictate the game more than survivors do. Survivors generally have to react to what the killer does.
Even "weak" killers like Plague get to do this. Killer decides to go Plague? All of a sudden Survivors have to play a different way, because her power denies a certain branch of game mechanics altogether.
Killer selection alone forces survivors to play in different ways. And speaking of selection, the pre-game lobby gives killers the opportunity to plan and prep ahead of time. Much of what the killer does in the lobby will dictate how the game will play out.
So it's not a case of "only for me not for you." Killers already have a lot to say and control in how the game gets to play.
2 -
What?
Every killer in the game has one counter built in, rushing the insane gen speed. Then 2 of them have a counter to the other main counter to most killers, looping and we all know the 2, unless the survivors are bad and make alot of mistakes 9/10 the survivors dictate when the killers get a down by making a mistake.
1 -
Not sure what you're trying to say, but what I got from your post is that you are saying Killers are weaker than survivors and that the game is survivor-sided.
Typical killer propaganda.
Sorry, but this is just not true. It's proven at all levels that killers are at least competitive with survivors. Actual stats show that killers are stronger than survivors from Rank 1 to 20. Actual killer streamers and videos show that Killers are more than capable of competing with Survivors at Rank 1, and even against SWF groups. If you have the skill, you can compete on even-footing with any survivor group.
This is a fact.
Same goes the other way around. If you have the skill a survivor group (even solo) can compete with high rank killers, whether they are Nurse, Spirit or Billy.
Killers are not weaker than Survivors and can't "only win if survivors make mistakes." Get that rubbish ideology out of your head before it corrupts you and turns you into a Victim Complex Killer (a Killer who only feels sorry for himself and thinks BHVR is against him and he can't win because BHVR made the game survivor-favored).
4 -
@Mochan This.
The fact you know there's a 90% chance the killer is running BBQ means you should be using the counters that are available to you if you want to play stealthy.
Not using them because "it's just not your playstyle" is entitled and shows a lack of willingness to adapt.
Same thing can be said for survivors who face a Nurse and "looping" is their preferred playstyle, they will die because you need to play stealthier against the Nurse since loops are not reliable.
Or Killers who get annoyed at stuff like DS, because they like to relieve the pressure of 4 survivors and quickly kill 1 of them. They will eat the DS and lose a bunch of time.
I'm not saying Keys are OP (aside from some specific situations), but this game runs on counters and counter-counters pretty much every game. Just like Plunderers could now counter Franklins (and I don't think that is wrong in the least), you can run SS, Distortion, or do any of the counters to BBQ if you know the killer is running it.
I think, when we start discussing nerfs and/or buff, we need to take a look at what (if any) counters there are to the subject in question, how many they are, if they are reliable, if they can be preformed with or without perks and how effective they are as counters.
I think BBQ has way too many, erffective, counters to be considered OP. Honestly most killer probably run it for the BP gains for the most part (I like surveillance more for gen protecting and map info but I need muh points).
4 -
That is strictly not true. Survivors can literally dictate how long the game lasts. Survivors dictate the chases for the most part, since most killers (except Nurse and spirit to a degree) must take advantage of survivor mistakes.
Survivors should have to play differently based on the killer. Because not every killer is the same. The nurse teleports and can make loops very unsafe. But survivors don't adapt like they should, which is a real shame.
I cite Devour Hope as the main counter-argument. Survivors dictate whether the game is harder for them or not. Same with Ruin. Killers are dictated by survivors.
On a separate note:
Dead Hard has a counter. It's called baiting it out. They will be forced to use it and you can punish them after.
1 -
Anyone thinking keys are fair shouldn’t be able to even talk about balance
1 -
Welp, I am angry about that change ngl
I used Franklins to make people drop toolboxes, not just keys
Looks like I am gonna hear quick gen pops still :/
0 -
Franklin's is only a good counter to dummy survivors who can't play a match without their little tools. So, no I really can't sympathize since I play nearly all of my matches without anything it was until recently since I actually started using the items I hoarded and I still can't sympathize. Literally drop your tool somewhere and pick it up.
Oh no I dropped my Flashlight and Toolbox, the horror.
0 -
"When something becomes meta, that's a sign it needs a change", ok, were are the changes to DS, DH, BT and Adrenaline then ?
1 -
Not when their in the open, when they dead hard to a pallet or window, it's a down that is completely taken from me, if I swing early they dh and make it if I don't they dh and make it.
0 -
Isnt it enough to remember where the killer hit you?
0 -
Look. You can call me entitled all you want.
When I bought this game I wanted to play Survivor and sneak around.
Nurse non-looping is a counter to one killer. That killer is not played in 90% of the games. There is something wrong with the game when 90% of it is playing one way and the other way has been nerfed into oblivion.
When something becomes so meta, they need to take a look at it and fix the problem, so that the game doesn't suffer as a result. See, this is the problem with the game: it is moving towards looping playstyles far too much and is disregarding stealth styles.
A lot of survivor-side things were nerfed for the betterment of the game. And this is good. Sabo was broken and stupid, so it was nerfed. That's good. Vaulting was too broken and prevalent, so it was nerfed. That's good. Now while BBQ isn't quite broken, it is prevalent, so something needs to be done so that it doesn't completely neuter an entire playstyle.
I get that you can stealth around it. But it's just one symptom of a bigger problem this game is trending towards.
Anyway, I don't expect anyone to understand. You can call me entitled all you want.
Now, back to the original point you brought up as segueway to all this:
KEYS ARE NOT BROKEN.
Keys you see are pretty well-balanced by the fact that a specific number of gens are required to use them. Do they need nerfing? Not really. But I wouldn't mind some of the changes proposed like allowing only one survivor to use a key, etc.
You using one comment on Keys that I made, then seguewaying it into an off topic issue on a view I have on another thing that you found disagreeable is to be honest poor form. If you have an issue with my views on BBQ talk about them int he BBQ topics.
0 -
The knowledge that the Survivor may know exactly where the key was dropped makes for good insideous leatherface hidden by the location of the item.
If the Survivor sees the item aura they would likely go back and get it without much thought because it's just waiting on the ground to be picked up again as will you with your insideous Franklin's.
0 -
A mori requires a hook :D
0 -
You do realize that there is a difference between meta and broken, right? Just because a certain perk becomes meta, it doesn’t mean it’s broken and needs changing. It just means it’s one of the few useful perks out there. There will always be meta perks and if we follow your logic soon enough perks like déjà vu become the strongest perks, simply because every other perk got nerfed into the ground because they’re meta.
As for the keys, just because there is a certain condition you need to meet before you can get the full potential out of something, it doesn’t mean it’s balanced. Let alone, the fact it leads to toxic gameplay and punishes the killer because of what? Because one of the survivors brought an overpowered item. And don’t get me wrong on this, mories are the exact same. Besides your whole “a certain amount of gens needs to be done” argument is simply not true. The amount of times a survivor escapes, even though I got the upper hand during the match is honestly annoying and bothering. Plus, you need to time required to complete a gen in mind. In a 4v1 situation, unless the team of survivors really sucks, usually 3 gens get done. 1 or 2 popping in the first minutes because that’s when the killer still needs to get momentum and start gaining map pressure. Requirements aren’t even that hard to meet.
1 -
"Keys are no problem, because they are not everywhere"
Please play one game on my acc as killer and say it again.
0 -
Its a perfect example of the hypocrisy when people only play one side.
Its one rule for one, and one rule for another.
Actual killer streamers and videos show that Killers are more than capable of competing with Survivors at Rank 1, and even against SWF groups. If you have the skill, you can compete on even-footing with any survivor group.
Same goes the other way around. If you have the skill a survivor group (even solo) can compete with high rank killers, whether they are Nurse, Spirit or Billy.
This is another; survivor things are fine because streamers can compete, but Nurse gets nerfed and there are cries to nerf those others despite the same streamers still competing with them also :’)
If you someone loses to Nurse it’s because she’s OP, if they win its a bad Nurse. Absolute mental gymnastics and bias.
I wish the devs would stop listening to forum/Reddit ‘feedback’ as it’s a big circle jerk echo chamber for people on either side who want to win easily without getting better at the game.
(Please excuse any errors in the text, autocorrect was doing some weird stuff posting to these forums on my phone!)
0 -
I am not calling you specifically entitled @Mochan. It was a general statement.
And I agree with you on most of what you say, shaking the meta would be an improvement of the game.
I just do not agree with how the devs have been handling changes. I am a fan of the "buff not nerf" approach to multiplayer games.
Lately it has been one nerf after another for both killers and survivors (except Freddy rework), and it just makes the game less fun to me.
Instead of nerfing BBQ, how about we buff other killer perks? And in turn buff their counterplay for survivors? Raise the skill curling not lower it.
Besides, if BBQ stops being used so much, you're gonna see a lot more proxy camping than it is now. The perk literally encourages interactions between ALL the survivors and the killer, which is a good thing.
0 -
But then they don't have it again. You've forced them to use those I frames for distance. If you play it well you can catch them easily after they vault or drop the pallet. Dead Hard isn't the worst perk out there.
0 -
I never thought Franklin's was a counter to Keys, so this changes nothing for me.
0
