Scott Jund's video on Spirit
If you haven't seen it already, Scott did a video on the hate for Spirit and what he would change to make her more "interactive" and "fun".
So what are your thoughts Scotts video and how would you change Spirit?
Me personally, just rework prayer beads and get rid of collision with survivors, while phase walking.
Comments
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She's like legion imo, her design to it's core is just bad. There's no way to really fix her unless you completely gut her and rework her, or she just becomes terrible like legion did.
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Unfortunately the current meta is "run the best perks and items" Spirit IS very strong but SWF is way stronger. Any killer beside spirit will get wrecked by a 4 man swf with comms. When they fix swf then they should fix spirit
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Gutting her completely will render one of the only viable killers in high rank play to be useless. But she does warrant some nerfs.
I agree with OP, Beads needs to be removed and collision needs to go away. But I prefer going one step further with it.
She needs to affect the things surrounding her. Like grass, corn, etc. Her footsteps needs to be more pronounced and easily heard. Her phasing also needs to be directional. So survivors can hear where she's phasing from just from wearing headphones. One more thing I'd like to see if that survivors can hear the glass shattering sound effect when she's powering up her phase walk. That would be a great indication to whether or not she's phase walking or just standing there waiting for survivors to come into range of her melee.
There's plenty of ways to nerf Spirit that doesn't require her to be gutted, same with Legion. There's a thread in this forum full of Legion buffs that are reasonable to make them viable, but still allow counterplay on the part of survivors. I suggest you go check it out.
I seriously don't think gutting Spirit is the only way to make her "more fair", if anything it's less fair to people who only play her. So it's best if her nerfs (which we know is inevitable at this point) aren't too detrimental to her power, but gives survivors more info to work with working out where she is.
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To me I feel like he hit the nail right on the head when he explains how her weakness is really not really a 'weakness' when she has more queues to track an exact location of a survivor, while a survivor (even the good ones) are forced to just guess because there are no legitimate queues of her next move.
Which is why I don't think they need to necessarily "nerf" her, I just think there she needs to have additional queues allowing the survivor the opportunity for a fair mindgame.
Let's be honest it feels damn good when she misses, because of how powerful she is, but many of these are luck and playing like a bot. Basically forcing the survivor to leave the most safe spot you could be at. lol
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The problem really is prayer beads, I think. If you can hear the wooshing, she's far less of a problem.
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Basicly it is his post all over again, ignoring posts in that thread such as people stating that they actually like to play against spirit.
He compares pre "fix"legion to current spirit, i disagree spirit still has to perform the right guess. Old legion didn't have to guess at all, m2, hit hit hit while survivor couldn't do anything against it and that is not the case here. The statement that you will go down after an certain amount of time could be applied to every killer. I really don't see the value in that statement.
Removing collision will not make it better to go against spirit, good players can no longer be blocked via narrow paths or whatever this will make tunneling much easier so I don't see this being an improvement at all.
Also the glass was not the only thing but her hair and hand animation was a tell whether or not she uses her power. Than there is his statement that she has nothing to do with mindgames and his definition of it. A mindgame is manipulating another person to do something so spirit does mindgames even if he doesn't like them.
The statement that prayer beads has no counterplay is outright wrong, ever heard of spine chill? That perk helps alot with spirit in general. Survivors have perks at their disposal to play against spirit, yet most of it is ignored once again and the double standard is strong in the overall discussion.
The idea of spirit moving grass and corn, I think there once was a killer that did actually do that while being completely invisible and there was no mindgame to perform for him at all as this was not a vague indicator of where the killer was but 100% correct tell with that in mind i doubt it is a good idea to bring this back.
For survivor play 4-5 perks, everything that can not be countered by it has to be made counterable by that yet when it comes to killers it is perfectly fine to equip perks to counter general design that is quite baffling. I don't like spirit in general because her sounds are so cringe but that is just me.
Amplify the sound of her footstops so survivors can distinguish that better and see how that pans out. The idea of a vague indicator is good but I kinda doubt that bhvr is able to make it without rendering the killer useless.
In general i think we are so annoyed by spirit since she is being played so much, question is not how to change her but how to change the other killers so you see those more. When I have I last seen a bubba,clown,doctor ? Making rework of maps, taking years from now can not be the answer to that.
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Scutt likes to change the definitions to fit the narrative as he did here with a mindgame.
Spirit should make environment move as in, grass and corn(I thought she already did that tho) and maybe add additional thing of no collision while phasing but if she goes out of the phase while inside of a survivor she gets that "POSSESSION" event and it injures a survivor.
I like the prayer beads as it does add that constant thrill of "What if she gets here in a second" but dedicated servers made it actually impossible to grab people off things so I don't find it that bad really.
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But then again, swf games aren't all the games you play and solo players get demolished.
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He compares Old legion because both characters ignore the skill of the survivor and the game is completely in the killers hands without the survivor having a say.
Her hair standing up is also not a valid counter because there are skins for her that alter her hair style, the glass shard is also not reliable to tell if she is phasing (at least from my experience.
Spine Chill does counter prayer beads but Spine Chill can also be countered by the Spirit by moving sideways and Iron Will can be countered by Stridor. You also can't choose perks after you know which killer it is which means you would need to take the perks into every match just in case you face a Spirit.
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The issue with his proposed "fix" is that she ONLY moves grass when phasing.
Some maps HAVE NO GRASS. That's a big one. Also many sections of maps, like buildings have no grass. There's no justification for balance only affecting patches of maps.
It's also very possible to avoid grass entirely as you phase. That's not feedback to survivors to counterplay survivors, that's not interactivity to HOPE that you have a convenient patch of grass to be able to counter her power at all.
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She’s going to be changed eventually. May as well accept it. She gets spammed for a reason.
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She's gonna get Legion'd, then Hillbilly gonna get Legion'd, then Huntress gonna get Legion'd..
There's no stopping this train.
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I mean, Nurse is still the best Killer in the game. And the difference between Nurse/Spirit and Legion is simply that Legion was never a good Killer to begin with. He was underpowered form the start, he was able to down one person 100% in a long period of time, which is really unfun for the Survivor who is being chased, and unfun for the other 3 Survivors, because they can only rush Gens, since there was no interaction between Killer and Survivor.
Of course, if you take away the unfun Part of Legion, he will still be weak, he was weak to begin with. But Spirit can actually be reworked to something which is somewhat enjoyable to go against, without making her a weak Killer, her Basekit is really strong, and I highly doubt that they will butcher her.
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Why Huntress? No complains about her and she's very inconsistent due to the map design.
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This is BHVR. I have no confidence they won't give her unnecessary nerfs. She only needs a couple.
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Why Huntress? Why not Huntress? Rather than improving the weakest killers in the game, Behavior's method of balance is to nerf anything in the top section of any tier list.
Of course Spirit is going to "over-perform" when there's so few viable killers in the top ranks. It there was more variety up there, things would be different.
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You do realise that comparing legion/future spirit/nurse's case to a rework is utter crap?
A rework makes it a completely new killer with a new skillset, what Legion and nurse got were NERFS. The only rework up to date was Freddy.
No sense in downplaying that.
Incase you didnt pay attention to all the discussions around Spirit, NO ONE ever drops the idea of a rework, only nerfs.
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Really wish all the people being neigh sayers on how the devs are just ruining the game...would just leave already. So tired of all the negativity from the same people everyday.
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Oh wow, I wrote Rework instead of Nerf. Nevertheless, most of the time people are talking about Rework when they talk about Legion. even the Devs talked about a Rework.
Yeah, you 100% have a point here. And it is so much important, wow. This should totally take away the other 99% of my post, sure, sure.
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If you think prayer beads is fine because spine chill exists, you are very wrong. If that's the case, then the devs don't need to fix loops like the ironworks of misery because bamboozle exists, gen times don't need changing because ruin,pgtw exists... I could go on.
If there isn't enough counterplay for something without perks, then that needs changing.
Even if we buff the other killers, lots of people will only play spirit because her skill cap is only listening. She is a low skill, very high reward killer
Buffing the weaker killers should be the priority but it looks like the game will be dead by spirit until she is changed. If every match is going to be against spirit in red ranks, that will only make the changes come sooner.
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Who said I didnt agree to the Legion-prefix part? It was overbearing and quite exploitative in nature, but the so called legion rework consisted of fixing those exploits and adding a whole load of nerfs to it.
Same with nurse, there was no rework, only nerfs to her max potential (the addons) and her minimum potential (base kit)
And excuse the ridicule, survivors do not have fun when facing against killers that are "strong". thats why those are not weak killers.
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Which I hope doesn't lead to him "overperforming"0 -
excuse me we only overreact and talk about nerfing when it comes to killer discussion
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I feel like another legion like rework incoming.. which will put spirit in the history like legion
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Tofu also uploaded a video on this
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Make her move grass ( but not corn, so she isn't useless on Farm maps ) and nerf/rework Prayer Beads, Wakizashi Saya and the charge time add-ons. Idk about collision, I don't want Spirit to be completely helpless against Iron Will users without Stridor, plus, removing collision might buff her in other aspects.
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Don't give her the Legion treatment. Those edgy teens got nerfed into uselessness.
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That is wrong, it isn't completely in the killer hands. That is why escapes vs spirit are possible. Have done it myself several times so please spare me this story that it can not be done or is in the hands of the killer completely.
As I said there is not one tell there are several but okay ignore the hands, when she turns around and suddenly spine chill goes on what could that mean? 😂
Yeah cause spine chill is totally useless when not against a spirit, so is iron will. Oh wait no they are not but since you have the most trouble with that particular killer i would suggest choosing perks that help you with that killer, ofc it is much better to take perks that help you vs a clown. What is this logic?
And do we see changes to the loops or the gen times? No we don't we see people stating obviously wrong stuff because they want easier wins. The devs do not adress core design issues within the game.
You think spirit has higher priority than core design issues? Interesting.
Yeah I don't argue that spirit isn't a high skill killer but it doesn't have to be. I don't see why it is fine that the majority can turn on easy mode by going into the game as 4 competent people. Rendering most killers completely useless and having win after win.
Ofc people gonna pick what is the strongest against that. I doubt as many people will complain about loops, low tier killers or swf and the rotten core of this game.
It is time to balance around top players on both sides and not just one.
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Nothing to see here. If it's not Huntress, he doesn't have a problem with something being nerfed as long as he can sell a few clicks on a video.
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Escapes vs Spirit are possible if the Spirit player allows it. If they are bad you can escape ofc.
There is no way to tell if a Spirit is phasing without the use of perks. If there are, I would gladly like to see a comparison between a Spirit that is phasing and one that isn't.
It isn't about the perks helping against facing Spirit, but having those as the only real counters and that those "counters" can be countered by the Spirit is not ok. There is no reason a survivor should take a perk just in case they vs one specific killer out of the entire roster.
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I haven't seen it but I assume his wording of calling the spirit unfun and not interactive is practically saying nerf her because I don't feel like adapting slightly to counter spirit.
I get how you could think she's strong but however much you complain for change, the best killer mains will always do really well with any killer.
If every killer got nerfed except for leatherface, the best killers would be playing leatherface and everyone will complain about his chainsaw being op.
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I love this statement, really you have to.
By that logic you can also say 4ks are possible if the survivors are bad. Really that argument leads nowhere, the old tale about meh the killer was bad. Honestly I have never seen such an arrogant community, take other games and you will see that people do not trashtalk either side because they lost a series of games nor do they claim balance is skewed.
So there is no reason for survivors to do that but killers have to? Seems legit and totally fair. Please now just add to it that somewhere some "godplayer" ( imaginary player lul).
You know i would agree with that if i would actually see the entire roster in red ranks but I don't so i will not.
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I didn't say spirit has higher priority. There are lots of other things that should have the priority. They are slowly fixing the maps. There will be another map rework this year according to the roadmap.
The amount of complaints and dc's will increase if lots of people play spirit now, and that will make them nerf spirit sooner. That's my guess.
Spirit feels like she was balanced for swf. It is too easy to win with her against solos. But they cannot balance the game around swf's. If they do that solos will greatly suffer (and they are the majority of players). They either need to do something about gen times in swf, or buff solos to swf levels and then buff all killers.
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The ping idea sounds very good, something like the legion frenzy pinging other survivors once you frenzied someone before?
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If the Spirit allows it? You make it sound like the Spirit auto kills people just by looking at them without any work at all. The same can be said about Survivors.
Killers can only kill someone if the Survivors allow it. If they are bad of course you can wipe the floor with them, but if a team is worth a damn they wont give you the time to get more than maybe 2-3 hooks before gens are done and gates open.
Sounds like a load of crap doesn't it? That's more or less what you just said yourself.
And as for perks. My opinion is that there shouldn't be a meta. All builds should have pros and cons to them and not have one be overly dominate over the rest. You should have weaknesses as well as strengths. But that isn't how the game works either. Survivor has had more or less the same meta build since the game launched. Stacking second chances or chase extending perks as much as possible without any need or care for anything else.
If you want my opinion. The meta needs a kick in the ass. That's one big problem right there and the top tier Killers point this out. Nurse and Spirit are the only Killers able to bypass or not fall into the meta like everyone else and by getting around the meta they are seen as overpowered. But I think MORE Killers should be like that!
Each Killer should have their own meta!
I think Survivors should be forced to work around what Killer is in play that game. You shouldn't be able to just use the exact same strat for each and every Killer in the game without needing to adjust at all. There would be some overlapping for Trapper/Hag, Shape/Ghost, Wraith/Pig, or Billy/Cannibal. But you should have to change your playstyle to match the Killer instead of just run loops every game till you happen to find a Killer that can't be looped like Nurse/Spirit.
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Looks like he needed an extra few bucks and resorted to clickbait. Nice.
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how is this video clickbait?
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Could we get a video from someone whose opinion actually matters? Imagine listening to Scott Jund or any of his friends in their massive echo chamber. These are the same people that defended his girlfriend and themselves from constantly deranking prior to streaming so they could bully people, and then they made up excuses and attempted to justify it - and they all went along with it. Really, not the type of people you listen to in any aspect.
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These Pre-Legion comparisons are a little hyperbolic, let's be honest.
Pre-gion, when played IMPROPERLY, gave him that annoying feel that you clouldnt escape. Nothing could help you since his power was made for tracking, but used for offense.
Spirit actually LOSES tracking when using her power, and has to depend on survivor voices and scratch marks to track, or make guesses. Now, with that in mind, here are changes I would like to see float around:
Spirit:
When phasing, survivor sounds are omnidirectional, and she has no collision with them.
Prayer Beads:
Moved to Ultra Rare, switching with Father's Glasses. Reduces phasing sound to 5 meters, but slows down phasing travel speed.
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Well let's not throw the veteran solo players under the bus and act like they don't exist
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Ohtofu video was more brutal and to the point. His video made me realize just how much he hates spirit. He has real trouble finding out when spirit phases walks. They should take her shards and light her up like christmas tree than people will always know when she is phase walking. it would be pretty funny. Both of them state that there is no reliable way to counter spirit's power. The reason being is that her power is pure and complete stealth. There used to be another killer who also had perfect stealth and that killer was Freddy. He got reworked to remove that stealth. I miss his Old pill bottle add-on. It was a fun add-on to use. The whole point of stealth is to be unpredictable. you can't really counter perfect stealth. you can only make it less effective. As soon you can physically see her or hear her, than it is no longer perfect stealth. It becomes partial stealth which is little bit like what wraith has as power. The irony behind her power is that she also turns the survivors invisible, but just because you can't see a survivor doesn't mean you don't know where they are. Sound and Visual cues are valuable assets to being an effective spirit. He also complained about the add-on's. It is interesting perceptive though I'm not sure what you can do against perfect stealth to make it less frustrating for those players besides removing it. Spirit wouldn't be the same character anymore without her perfect stealth. I don't think she's that bad to face but that's just my opinion. Just like every opinion, take it with grain of salt.
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It won't be a gutting however, expect spirits to still kill you :)
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Collision actually can save you against spirit, I’ve been saved by it at pallets a lot.
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By "if the Spirit allows it" I mean, if the Spirit is not a good killer. You will never escape against a great Spirit player. The Spirit does pretty much auto kill survivors if you're good enough at the game, just like Nurse did.
There will always be a meta, you can't get around that. Every game has a meta and so does DbD. Of course, the meta could freshen up if the devs actually did something to the top meta perks but doubt that will ever happen.
Survivors having to switch up playstyle against every killer would offer different kind of gameplay if it were to happen but it just isn't possible. The majority of killers will always be loopable. There is no way the devs could keep coming up with such unique abilities that looping would become non-existant.
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Your statements are just as good, "I have escaped against Spirit many times. That must mean she is escapable. End of discussion". By that same logic, we can say omegablink Nurse was balanced because some people, in some cases, were able to escape against her.
Killers have to what? Take certain perks every match? Most don't actually and those perks still work just as effectively every game against every survivor.
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He doesnt care about youtube clicks because he can't monetize them If you would know that. But hey, let's always talk bullshit about stuff we have 0 clue about. Yikes.
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Scott has some laughable opinions at times, but we all do. This could be one of them, spirit needs more change than that.
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@justarandy I was just getting ready to say this.
People are clueless sometimes. Lol
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Scott: "Clown is mid tier and dead-hard is a bad exhaustion perk".
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It still stands though. If you go against a SWF or even a solo Survivor team that wants to win, no Killer can stop them. But a common reply to someone saying that is "those teams are so rare they almost don't exist" or "you can't balance around the top 1%".
It's the same thing. You are saying every single Spirit that even bothers to try is unstoppable. It's a double standard. If Killers can't complaint about SWF or gen rushing, then Survivors shouldn't be able to complain about high tier/skill Killers.
And guess what. The basics for there being a meta for each Killer is already in the game. It just isn't good enough due to Killers being unable to fully use their powers.
Trapper for example. Against a good Trapper you MUST watch your step or else! But that isn't the case because Trapper can't trap worth a damn. He takes too long to use his power for multiple reasons. Takes forever to gather traps, takes too long to set them up, it takes no time to disarm traps, and getting out of traps is too easy. Trapper is a Killer that should have a unique meta, but doesn't.
Compare that to Hag. Hag blows Trapper out of the water in his own game. Hag can spam traps as needed, can setup minefields for later with minor time investments, can make use of near any triggered trap, and more. Hag has her own meta and is one of the better Killers because of it.
Shape does as well. If you loop a Shape, you feed him. So you want to avoid line of sight as much as possible. Keep an eye out and do NOT LET HIM SEE YOU! Ghost does this as well to a point. Both change the meta ever so slightly
Plague should even have her own meta. Cleanse or stay broken.
Pig, Wraith, Doctor, most Killers already have their own forms of meta Survivors need to deal with them. But the vast majority of Killers have powers that just don't do enough and can be dealt with by just more looping.
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