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“Fun” is not a valid talking point for balance
Lately, I have been seeing many posters and streamers talking about various aspects of DBD (spirit, NOED) as not being fun. This usually leads to people asking for nerfs.
The problem is that fun is way too subjective. I, as killer, do not have “fun” getting looped and genrushed etc... but I’m not going to ask for nerfs based on that. Rarely do people have fun when they lose, which means salt should probably be disregarded and not used as feedback. Just a thought.
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Losing isn't fun. That's why I don't do it.
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Who's ready to fly on a zipline? I am!
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Fair point and I'm not one for nerfing based off "fun" either. People need to look at certain things in a PvP competitive sense as far as actual balance goes.
One issue is that there is only one game mode of DBD. Casual players are mixed in with competitive players and this creates friction. Casuals just want to have fun while the competitives want to win in a balanced setting.
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The problem is fun is actually a core part of video games if something is not fun for a majority of the community it is indeed a problem and Spirit is indeed not fun for a majority of the community which is a problem no ones asking for nerfs to spirit people are asking for counterplay theres a difference she lacks actual counters her whole kit is a one sided mind game.
In regards to NOED most people are tired of killers who do nothing get rewarded with a free down which i can completely agree with as i play both killer and survivor i have seen my fair share of camping killers and or killers who failed to apply pressure get rewarded for nothing.
Also another common complaint about NOED is it punishes the survivors for doing the core objective which to an extent it can feel like a punishment but it is what it is.
Lastly the point of a video game is to be fun and you are correct fun is subjective but when a majority of the community including killers are saying Spirit is unfun there's a problem there and it should be addressed in regards to NOED i wish there was more of a way to make it to where a killer has to atleast do something to earn NOED maybe a certain amount of hooks or something.
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I mean Pallet looping is a part of the core aspect of the game if it was not then pallets would not be in the game.
Gen rushing is also a part of the core of the game survivors need to repair gens to escape so of course they are gonna do exactly that granted killers have way more tools to deal with generators back when i first started playing you only had ruin and that was it compared to now you have PGTW,Corrupt,Ruin,Thana and Sloppy to make healing longer.
I mean you can make the argument everyone is biased i mean your statement alone is biased towards one side just saying everyone to an extent is biased.
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I’d argue that the people complaining about Spirit would have more fun if they learned how to go against her. Instead they complain, put in no effort, and beg for nerfs.
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The problem is its not learning how to go against her because you cant really learn how to go against her what is there to learn?
She can go invisible which leaves little to no counterplay you cant actually mind game her bro and you cant argue perks counter her as you cant tell what killer you are facing before you get into a match.
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Perfect video to watch. Scotts is also good.
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You don’t need perks to mind game the spirit. Against her, you need to put down pallets early and use windows as much as you can. Putting down the pallet forces her to guess which side you’ll be on or if you abandon the loop altogether. If she guesses right, she gets a hit. If you guess right, she is then a 110 killer with no way of closing the gap.
She has plenty of counterplay, people refuse to learn it.
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Yes it's a common quote used for the discussion. Everything in the game can be boiled down to a coin flip for fun. Do I get stunned by the pallet or not. Do I make the vault safely or not. Doesn't make much of a discussion since you can then just say "well were you far enough from the pallet / killer". Almost like the replies to the coin flip of spirit
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What is wrong with it being a guess? This talking point is insane. You’re basically saying that survivors should just have a foolproof, safe way to counter her, as they do against most m1 killers. Killers should NOT constantly be in a guess that is dictated by the survivor. That is a terrible philosophy.
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"But those are perks and I shouldn't have to switch off the perks I can use to counter the other 16 killers extremely well but don't have as much use against the spirit"
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yeah I'll just run 4 perks all the time just in case I get one specific killer
true balance achieved
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Fun keeps a gaming community alive.
If people aren't having fun they're going to show it. The fact that a wide majority have issues with her shows that she's not as subjective as these forums believe.
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Fun is definitely something that can be taken into account when you hear enough people hate an aspect of the game.
Spirit largely isn't fun for the survivor side because she's mostly guesswork. You aren't rewarded for your skill or gameplay, but instead luck that the tactic you picked wasn't the one she expected. She also gets a TONNE of feedback compared to the survivors and even when you are playing appropriately to confuse her, she can course correct in ways you can't hope to counteract, like sound, collision, and disturbing grass on the ground.
Fun is the same reason Doctor is the next rework. He's adequate as a killer, but is he fun for either side? Not really. He's subjected to looping as much as almost any other M1 killer, and his only power in a chase is very temperamental. He also has to drag out chases early to build madness, when T3 never lasts long enough to be a useful debuff. On the other side, it's incredibly unfun to outplay a killer multiple times and escape, only for an uncounterable RNG scream to reveal you and put him right back on your ass, along with countless other revealing effects that take very little effort to trigger or use.
Fun exists. While it's subjective, that doesn't discredit its value in changing the game.
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I don't find OoO to be fun to go against, I even made a thread explaining why it shouldn't have existed in the first place as a perk that allows you to see your opponent at all times even if they can see you is horrible design to the core.
But even though I call for it to not exist, I still put myself through it. Because I find it fun to destroy the overconfidence of cocky survivor with friends groups. I'm still struggling but when you succeed in winning against an optimal team it feels satisfying.
But, of course not everyone will find that to be fun. They will get frustrated and irritated. The same reasons I find OoO to be not fun is the same reason some people fine Spirit to be not fun.
I agree we shouldn't really balance based on what is fun and what isn't, but we should also take into consideration on what is frustrating and what isn't. Because whilst fun is subjective, frustration surely isn't.
No one likes games where they basically couldn't do anything. They just wasted their time. And while yes, balancing around hard numbers with ways to counter them is also a good thing. We have to remember that DBD is not a normal multiplayer game. It's a special exception in it that this game has survived through years of horrible, awful, ridiculous bad design. Yet the community stuck with it because the game is fun in general. Which is why frustrating things can often be ignored, which in my opinion, really shouldn't be.
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There is plenty counterplay.
Grass & corn moves when she's phasing.
Crows are spooked.
Her animations restart.
She has footstep sounds.
If you have a flashlight and she tries to trick you by standing still, blind her.
Mislead with your scratches.
Bring Iron Will. (Not everyone wants to bring this perk, since it's countered by Stridor, but most spirits don't bring stridor.)
I am by no means a good survivor, but I find spirit more interesting to play against than normal M1 killers like Micheal or Wraith. I am one who liked going against old nurse too, but did admit Omegablink was a bit much. Because unlike most survivors, I don't like to run in circles for a majority of the time in a chase.
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Grass and Corn doesn't move when she's phasing.
Crows aren't spooked when she's phasing, and even if they did she would be chasing you or right behind you meaning you already spooked them yourself.
It does but it's very minor and you most likely won't notice it during a chase.
Yes but the chase music and heartbeat makes it very hard to listen to.
This is probably one of the more valid counters, blinding her with a flashlight allows you to know whether or not it's the husk or just her.
This is also one of her counters, and one I've used many times myself.
Bringing perks shouldn't be a valid counter, it's a bandaid to a problem, not a fix.
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Pretty sure I spook crows when I phase, It's given me away to survivors on Lery's.
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You do, and is a nice heads up you're coming towards a gen for the prayer beads runners or even moving around the map and crows suddenly fly up. They aren't there just for killers :D
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Do you now? Good to know.
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Those 3 builds are an effective counter to most any Killer in the game. Not just Spirit, any Killer can be dealt with rather well when you can simply vanish after a window/pallet vault.
But as that build isn't in the "loop as much as possible" or "annoying the Killer" metas, no one wants to bother with it.
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That is just factually incorrect. She does move grass and Corn when phasing. I've seen it whenever I'm on a corn map.
Crows are spooked by her phase. I've had many approaches ruined by them.
It's noticeable when you're at a loop, which is what people complain about.
Flashlights are better on PC than console, admittedly, which is the platform I use.
Most people I've noticed don't try to do this.
And I said that perk is unreliable myself. I list it as a possible counter. But then, a perk shouldn't negate a killer's power at all.
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Couldn't agree more. Fun is subjective what's not fun for some is fun for others. The people that beg for nerfs I imagine probably dont have a lot of experience playing and very little playing the opposite side, probably under 100 hours total. And probably less than 10 on the opposing side that they are begging for nerfs on. And most of them haven't come close to reaching their own their own potential in skill. As far as spirit is concerned I wouldn't mind if they reworked her like they did freddy but only if she was still just as strong as she is now. Just make her harder to play like nurse so we dont have a million people playing spirit stomping all over the green and yellow ranks.
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Idk if I get gen rushed as a killer I at least get the joy of focusing one player and even possibly getting a 2k at the exit gates. If I get facecamped as survivor it's literally boring and noninteractive and takes the same amount of time. That's the biggest issue between Killer and Survivor, being a toxic survivor means playing the game the most effectively and engaging and playing a toxic killer is the least effective and least engaging.
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Could you post a video of the corn/grass stuff happening then?
I've seen this claimed a lot and have not once seen video evidence.
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Vote down button still broken devs PLEASE FIX!
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If I get another spirit on a corn map, I'll try.
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Yea but there are numerous safe loops on most maps. They are especially bad on farm maps. Most killers have no answers.
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Maybe not balance, but certainly a point for needing to be changed in some way.
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I might be convinced if people were attempting to learn and counter spirit. If she’s still unfun, then fine. But I can tell both from the way people talk and from my games as Spirit that most people have no idea what they are doing.
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Okay so if you believe there is counterplay then you would have no problem showing it correct? if so @ScottJund im sure would love to see this so called counterplay you have.
Its one thing to sit behind a keyboard and claim a character has counterplay but if you claim she does then i suggest you show this counterplay because im sure a lot of us would love to see scotts challenge accepted.
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While I understand where you're coming from, the part I think you're missing is that dbd isn't intended to be a "competitive" game in the sense that you think it is.
Dbd is like the drinking game "Cornhole". It's meant to be fun, but it'll probably never be on ESPN. Sure, some people might git gud enough at it to play it for a living but...
Dbd isn't CS:GO. It's not Hearthstone. It's not LoL. It's a fun party game. If you don't realize that I suggest you watch the rivals event that happened on Halloween, literally some of the best players in the world competing against each other and they were just having fun.
And as for "looping and gen rushing" not being fun for you, as killer it's not just cat and mouse. The main element of the game for killer that determines a win is map control and time management. If you actually hate getting looped or dealing with objective centric survivor teams (which yea I agree, gen times are getting a bit nuts these days and need a look) then don't play killer. That's literally the role.
I play both sides, and I dare say I play both sides quite well. And I get your frustrations there's some major balance issues with the game, but I also get the frustrations of those upset about spirit (though I tend to fare against her better than most). You don't have a right to discredit other people's opinions.
After all, dbd is intended to be the world's best FUN party game that's horror themed.
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If you don't like looping then I guess this game isn't for you. DBD is run in circles simulator
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From a devs standpoint though is that if everyone is just going to DC when they play against someone they view as not fun then no one gets to play. Remember it takes survivors and killers to make this game possible. I mean survivors got nerfed because metal was toxic. Or d strike was and it wasn't fun as a killer to watch someone tank a ton of hits before going down just to get d striked. So yes if it's not fun for someone well u gotta look at what people are saying isn't fun.
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I’m down for any challenge.
People are entitled to their feelings, but they shouldn’t be giving balance suggestions if they haven’t done their homework.
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Playing a guessing game is not counterplay, silly
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Are you suggesting that the multiple streamers and content creators that literally play dbd for a living and are considered by many to be some of the best players in the world haven't done their "homework" and don't have a single clue what they're talking about?
Think for a moment how arrogant you sound saying that.
In regards to the spirit again, I don't tend to have as much problem with her as many others, however, if a feature or concept of a game isn't readily understandable to a majority of players (many of which upper tier players) then it's poor design and is likely unbalanced.
I get it man, a few months back everyone was crying about Billy (arguably the most balanced killer in the game) being unfun and unbalanced, and I laughed at them, like, hard, then people started getting better at countering him and that subsided. Then it shifted to spirit and I had the same response as I chuckled at people I thought were just bad. Then the months pressed on and on and on and on, and I continued to watch how others interacted with her and tried to counterplay her, watched as numerous top tier players said they'd agreed that she was unfun and unbalanced and realized just because I didn't have a problem doesn't mean she's not a problem.
In regards to whether or not "fun" should be considered in balance decisions (your original "point") before most of this thread derailed into a spirit discussion (though, she is a very good example as to why whether or not something is fun matters in the current state of play). Yea dude, it should. This is supposed to be a video game, not a slough down in a mine, and FROM THE JUMP, as in SINCE RELEASE, it's been a casual game, and fun matters even more in casual games.
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Yes, it 100% is. If you guess right, she loses a ton of time. If she guesses right, you get hit. It’s 10 times more fair than poor pig or trapper being forced to eat a cow loop with little to no counterplay.
I’ve been a top competitive fighting game player. One thing i’ve learned is that just because someone is top doesn’t mean their opinions hold much weight: some top players have outrageously bad opinions. It’s not a blow up, but being good doesn’t validate your opinions.
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Good points made. Essentially, video games are supposed to be fun but no one video game is fun for everyone, especially when you lose against another player. I don't think that NOED or any hex perks need to be nerfed, they can be taken away from the killer. Just cleanse the totems and you'll be fine. I can maybe see a NOED nerf in the EGC but I don't think that it's a perk you should have to "earn" if you can have it taken away so easily.
Now for the Spirit, my goodness does she need to be nerfed. If not her then maybe her prayer beads add-on. I think it should be like Iridescent Button for Legion. Instead of hearing no vapor sound during phasing, the sound covers the entire map; making distance and direction impossible to discern. And if they're not going to nerf the add-on then at least make it ultra rare!
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Soo.. keys don't need a nerf or instaheals? Valid point, I see! not
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Losing isn't fun?
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How is guessing a good and fair mechanic exactly? It should be about outplaying your opponent. I don't consider myself outplaying her when I guess right and it definitely doesn't feel like I got outplayed when I bump into her while I'm trying to avoid her.
Let's say I threw down a pallet and she is standing still. I can't know if she is even using her power. That's already one guess. I guess that she is using her power, and decide to go to the right. Oh no, I bumped into her, totally outplayed right? Not really, I just guessed wrong. There was literally nothing I could do to figure out that she would go that way, it's just a random guess.
Removing her collision with survivors would make these moments a lot more fair.
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I realize you are mocking it, but what you said is actually correct.
Perks should not be required to counter anything in this game, otherwise those perks just become meta.
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Dude, while I agree that being good doesn't mean a person's opinion is automatically right, when a majority of people you ask about a topic have similar viewpoints (demonstrated from top to bottom skill level wise) you need to honestly step back and question whether or not you, one of the few who don't have a similar viewpoint, are perhaps misinformed or flat out wrong.
And again, all of this is ignoring the fact that you still even throughout the course of this conversation don't seem to have a grasp on the fact that this is a CASUAL competitive game, so even more so than in standard competitive games fun is an incredibly valid and important concept in regards to balance. Since you are continuing to skirt this point and either rebute it or discuss merits and demerits of it as a concept (thus dumpstering the topic of discussion your initial post pretended to bring up) I'm done here and will instead be starting a conversation with my bedroom wall as it is bound to be more receptive to input.
Maybe dbd isn't your thing and you can go back to being a "top competitive fighting game player".
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It’s casual and nothing really matters, yet we need to nerf things severely. That’s a dead end, contradictory argument.
Guessing is a part of literally every pvp game. It requires you to get in your opponent’s head and outplay them. It seems like you think that survivors should be able to impose their will at safe loops. If you are unwilling to recognize that guessing is in every game, I don’t know what to tell you.
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No, grass and corn do NOT move when she phases. This is such a common myth.
And spirit can just look down when she starts phasing so she can't be blinded.
And I bet you that you wouldn't be able to detect spirit starting to phase by her animations restarting more than maybe 50% of the time.
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In other pvp games, every player has an equal chance at the guessing games. In dbd, the game literally gives you no feedback so it is pure random guessing at times.
She can see your scratch marks , see you moving the grass, alerting crows, hearing your footsteps, breathing, injured noises, can literally bump into you. She can use prayer beads to literally get free hooks unless you are using spine chill. She can use wakizashi saya addons and use the sonic speed to catch up to you even if she fails to predict you.
Survivors don't even know if she is using her power in a chase and have basically nothing to help them in a chase except random guessing unless they are using some specific perks.
I don't care about safe loops or whatever. Nurse is one of my favourite killers to go against and she can't be looped. She is actually fun to go against because I have some feedback on what she is doing and it's not random guessing games all the time.
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The whole argumentation about fun is utter bs, it is made from people who are entitled who want that their opinion of what is fun has to be right and everbody has to accept it.
Having fun in losing is something very odd, take any games that has mechanical skill build into it and it will require people to do reads on the opponent, no giveaways to safely tell is he going to do x? X has to be predicted in order to do anything against it. Many games have this, it is common in the fgc,dota and so on. Diffrence is people literally tell you to get good and stop to whine, here people delude themselves into thinking that to dc is fine cause that thing is no fun. The very same people who want to be taking seriously in balance discussion tell you it is okay to break the rules when you seem fit. In other games you would receive maybe one warning and after that it is bye for x amount of time.
Please do not tell me anything about you cant do that it is such a small community, yeah look up tekken player numbers for example "1/10" of what dbd has and yet people that dc alot will be marked and ignored in further games.
A majority of the people, actually we do not know if it is a majority of the people, there are no numbers on that and it could very well be a vocal minority. If not so provide me foolproof data for it. Furthermore the majority of players in dbd just sucks. Don't tell me it is not like that. Yes it actually is, look at all the posts made in this forum regarding why people die the most it is not because killer op, it is because teammates suck. Why play SWF, cause teammates suck.
I myself am no exception to it, I play 4man swf all the time and why? Because I can not stand the sheer stupidity of some randoms. When you do this enough you will have a very easy time. So what will I do? Will i play with my swf, toolboxes + prove thyself and meta perks where I know people are at least equally skilled as me if not even better and have an easy game or will i go with randoms who might be boosted and give me many frustrating moments? We make people disconnect on a daily basis, not yellow rank killers but red ranked people.
By the very same logic used on spirit, this would dictate that survivors need to be nerfed heavily. Will we see that? Nope.
Why is fun actually a stupid argument when it comes to balance?
We can all agree that fun is something very subjective. The game has several flaws, one side thinks it is not okay to equip perks in order to counter something yet that actually is what the other side has to do and it is fine. Somebody in another thread explained there was a tournament, while nurse still being strong on a map like the game, killers such as billy ( who is considered one of the three and being very well balanced) managed 1 kill each map. These were not bad killers but good killers, with tunneling and all that crap, they were able to get 1kill.
@Peanits told me he likes to reflect on what he could've done better after a match. There are however games where he thinks that he couldn't have done anything better and still loses. When those games do exist, balance should be changed so they do not occur in such a way at all(correct me if i am wrong but that is how i remember part of your answer in ask the community from me).
Sounds to me the skill of the killer in those cases is irrelevant isn't that what was considered a valid complaint about spirit because she negates the survivors skill? Reality is, spirit doesn't do that she just demands diffrent skills. Do not take this the wrong way but I think you are able to train a monkey to memorize routes on maps in order to run them when being engaged. How come as survivor there is literally nothing to micro manage?
Fun being the deciding factor and why not giving into this argumentation is very important? People agree that when enough people do yell enough about something the developers will finally cave in and change that. That is very dangerous and far from creating balance. Well as I said earlier most players in dbd outright suck. That means that when the majority complains it is the people that suck at the game. Are you out of your freaking mind to consider balance changes based on people who are bad at the game?
I suggest people are annoyed by spirit because lots of killers tend to use this killer. Why do killers tend to pick spirit more than other killers?
Simply due to the fact that lots of people outright refuse to build around that killer, if they would, spirit would not be picked so much. Don't delude yourself that there is huge variety in red ranks, there is not. 70-80% of my games are vs spirits. Yet when properly equipped, we deal with it even when they bring moris. Yes yes I know, all have been ######### killers cause somewhere there is some godplayer that will always 4k ( sure i believe that, not [check the tournament reference]).
Another point is that as killer, you have to manage time, you simply can not waste several minutes to down a single survivor. Apply pressure, you can do that when people are idiotic, however when they know where to run from safe loop to loop and play optimal, you will not have a fighting chance with any of the m1 killers against survivors who play optimal. Everything is fine somewhat but really isn't at all.
TL;DR ######### no, go to twitter or something.
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I've seen grass move at least.
But if she's standing still, she won't be looking down, since she wants to see where survivors are... and you can blind her then.
I do that consistently.
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