Unpopular opinion but survivor has a higher skill ceiling than most killers
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Not sure. If every survivor is sporting an engineer toolkit with BNPs and manual genrush and they play perfectly and killer is unlucky it might not be counterable.
And that's fine. That kind of game is an outlier and uses rare, finite resources. It might still have been counterable by Omega Blink nurse anyway back in the day before the nerf. And nobody plays perfectly all the time.
I've been in games where two or three survivors used BNP and we still got 4K'd.
Many survivors believe Omega Blink nurse can't be countered. There are nurse players here who stated empathically that they have never lost running Omega Blink Nurse. And quite a few survivors who have said they have never won against Omega Blink Nurse.
Again, outliers and uses finite resources. That's fine every now and then.
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"finite resources" is never true for survivors,
they keep their stuff when they win unlike killers lmfao.
and for rank 1 swf with 4 toolbox? ez wins most of the time,
the toolbox is almost infinite at that level.
Not to mention we just had 2 bloodhunt back to back.
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And "outlier is fine" statement? lol,
Nurse getting nerf is based on the fact that shes a outlier, quoting from devs,
spirit is being "look at" also because dev think shes a outlier,
but when swf toolbox game being an "outlier", that is fine.
SURE.
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Even as a killer main I'll agree a lot of The Killers have very basic kits.
Killers like Wraith, Legion and Clown have a very low skill ceiling.
This is typically why they often do very badly in high ranks. Whilst the survivors improve and can become even more effective there's not much you could really do with these types of Killers.
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I let my little cousin play whos 6 and he 2 kills at rank 20. Im not saying what you're saying is wrong, i felt like I was way better than my teammates right off the bat from game sense but i won my first like 5 games as survivor....how many can you win as killer?
Not to just write you off but your ending completely discredits everything you say, im your own words in an attempt to personally attack me by saying i said i never make mistakes....but that's not what i said. So that whole rant about survivors and killers making mistakes is exactly right.
Sorry if that's a little jumbled i stopped to play a game but in that game i had someone that dodged like 10 of my hits tell ggwp and that got me thinking, most of the time when someone t bags in the game they go down shortly after. Now im not trying to say you're mad (with as dedicated as you are i should hope not) but it would seem to me the most toxic survivors are normally also the ones making mistakes often. Maybe that's why they have so much salt and go long anti killer rants because they're losing all the time. Food for thought, and for dessert i got a little challenge for you. Im only rank 10 as survivor but i don't play it nearly as often, but because of the way the pips work i know that i could get to rank 1. I feel like that gives me authority to critique the power balance or as you put it "be a whiny killer main"
Since you seem dedicated to the idea that killers are OP and survivors are helpless to stop them why don't you gain that same authority by reaching rank one as killer. I mean a lot of people probably write you off as a salty survivor main ranting but they couldn't do that if you proved that you equally experience both sides ?
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I have an even more unpopular opinion, killer skill is irrelevant, there are only good survivors and bad ones.
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Nurse using Omegablink is an outlier. As in, used in maybe .01% of games? (I made that number up). A full SWF Commando Squad with Engineer Toolkits and BNP is an even rarer outlier. .001% of games maybe. That is fine.
I am saying an outlier that is very rarely played is not a big issue.
But Nurse herself is an "outlier" in terms of performance (which is why she was nerfed) but not an outlier in terms of how much she is played (which is the nuance of my post). Nurse is played in maybe 5% of all games? (I don't know just made that statistic up).
Don't confuse the nuances of the word "outlier" when trying to make an argument.
Understand what is being said so you don't make nonsense arguments.
I also love how you completely ignore the Survivor part of the argument (4-man Commando BNP) and just focus on the killer outliers. Very unbiased, yes.
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The only way I've been able to counter gen rush when playing against red ranks is when by mere coincidence I happen to come across the first survivor I hooked early in the game multiple times and take him out of the match. So basically I've been able to counter genrush by doing something similar to genrush, which is sacrificing one survivor as fast as you can, because it's a lot easier to pressure 3 people when there are only two gens left.
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Killers get tons more BP per game than survivors. Killers have way more resources than survivors, so it's a wash at best. Especially since the survival rate is well below 50%.
Further, stuff like BNP are CONSUMED ON USE so you don't keep it whether you survivor or not.
I reject your argument. Try again.
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I am not proving why survivor has a higher skillcap with that statement. I am simply arguing against your position.
This is why survivors have a higher skill cap IMO, it's my very first post in this topic. Feel free to debate it.
Of course Survivor has a higher skill cap.
Survivor has more moving parts. There are four of them, after all. Individually killer has a higher skill cap. But since there are four survivors, survivor has a higher skill cap because it includes team play and not just individual play.
Team play = more choices and possibilities. More choices means higher skill cap.
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Comparing omegablink to SWF with toolbox,
but not comparing base-kit nurse to SWF at red rank in general LMFAO?
The community mostly agreed base-kit nurse was fine, it was her add-ons that need to be dealt with, in fact, if you put 4man SWF with no items against base-kit nurse, SWF will win most of the time.
But sure, compare that base-kit nurse to that 0.01% SWF toolbox team, cuz they are equal.
Who's being nonsense here?
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How many I win as killer depends on which killer I play. But generally (this is a ballpark number) I can win about 3 out of 5 games as killer at the lower ranks (I do not play high ranks). By "Win" I define that as killing 3 or more survivors. I consider 2 kills a "draw" and not a "win."
Not sure what that has to do with anything, but that's how it looks when I play killer.
Also I have never personally attacked you per se. I attack whiny killer mains with a victim complex. Not you personally. If you felt you were being attacked it's because you were affected by the arguments I make.
I do agree that the whiny people tend to be the ones who make mistakes. In fact, you know someone made a mistake when they post about it here on this board. People complaining about something usually is a clear indicator that they just lost to it. And I myself admit this. I'm not god survivor I get stomped all the time.
Also I have never once said that killers are OP. That's simply your bias interpreting everything I say with a killer-hating slant simply because I'm a survivor main.
If you actually read what I say I have never once said Killers are OP. And in fact I'm more of a centrist and I fight against extremists who think too much one side or the other.
People who say "Killers are weak Survivors are the Power Role Killers only win if Survivors make mistakes" qualify in my view as extremists who are just too killer-sided and not seeing the game as a whole.
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Nah.. imo killer requires more skill. And the only reason why killers get destroyed in the red ranks is because gen rushing is a thing.
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Lol despite tha fact that your entire argument falls apart when numbers and design are taken into account but hey..you do you
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So explain to me why that is dumb logic, should be entertaining, coming from someone who advocates nerfs on bbq because he thinks the perk is op.
Someone who sincerely proposed to "distortion" to have unlimited charges not even knowing about OoO. Entertain me again about NOED and how it punishes genrushing.
The only sad thing is that you have 0 clue on how this game looks when you play 4 man swf with decently skilled survivors and why it is so infuriating that people like you beg for nerfs on killers that actually enrich the skillcap of survivors to more than looping. While they make outright lies about killers not having counterplay while there are tournaments showing that there is.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Spirit has a high skill ceilling too, pretty much at the level of huntress. I only saw 1 good spirit in all my 2k hours in dbd (pc). All the rest use stridor or are just decent and only knows the basic. None of them dont even know why wakizachi saya is good for and much more things like that. No good husk blocks, always using 100% of the phasewalk in chase, predict really bad and cant even hear healthy survivors or the different ground noices from foodstebs (yeah you can hear wooden grounds louder then normal ground). There are ton more things you should know on spirit.
But I agree, overall survivor has a higher skill ceilling in chase, but you still dont need to be good in chases because rushing gens is the most effective and easiest strategy.
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I’ve actually found a lot of good spirits but no stridor Spirits.
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There's a lot of horribly unfair stereotypes about the skill requirements on both sides. Billy has an incredibly low skill floor as he's very easy to pick up and play compared to some other strong killers, but stuff like curving during the initial high sensitivity at the start of a chainsaw charge is something that'll take a while to get good at, and even more to get close to mastering it. Obviously the killers relying on unique mechanics like Nurse, Huntress, Hax and indeed Spirit are generally more tricky as you often can't fall back on regular M1 chasing (which in itself isn't as "just put on enduring and spirit fury and then bloodlust 4Head" as some megaminds claim)
Same for survivor. So much "just run in circles 4Head", but that's more because it's a common thing in games to undervalue types of skill that aren't explicitly mechanical and "flashy". Hitting a crazy hatchet as Huntress is a lot more flashy and impressive to a random observer than knowing how to run all the variations of every tile, and how to combine them in an effective way. Doesn't matter if you hate good loopers or even the fact looping exists for whatever reason - it's still a skill that's part of what seperates bad, good and excellent survivors. And that's without even thinking of actions that involve more than one survivor, teamplay in other words.
It's not much different than the elitism you see in some games from people that play stuff like sniper/other aim-intensive characters/classes when they look down upon people playing support characters. I'd know, I used to be one of those snobby TF2 sniper mains that thought every other class was super easy ... until I actually started playing them. And there's a lot of these "softer" skills in all sorts of killer play too.
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I pretty much 100% agree with you here.
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It's the truth. Not an unpopular opinion.
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This is why lower tier killers keep falling to the wayside. The ceiling can be quite low.
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You don't need BNP at red rank to dominate the game, if you need that, you're pretty bad in the game.
Simply Green Toolbox, 4man swf with comm is already insanely OP at rank 1,
and the survivor rate for red rank swf is always above 50%, wdym "well below" 50% LMFAO?
you trying to make me laugh? where did you get that
And killers getting more resources? they also need to level up EACH killers to play it,
while survivors are just skins, you aren't bound to level up all characters.
reject your argument? look at your laughable logic first.
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Look im not trying to be an ahole but as a current purple killer and green survivor I feel i might just be less biased than someone who describes themselves as survivor who complains and posts about something they lose to AND only plays low rank killer
Im serious, try to get higher rank as killer and i think your whole mentally will change because if you're playing in low ranks its just kids and noobs. Get to AT LEAST green. Because as it stands i don't know how you can attack a side of the game so aggressively when you have no experience with it. It's not extremist to say survivor has the advantage its just reality. It doesn't mean killers are helpless, ive gotten like a 10 4k streak, and i can't remember the last game where i didn't get at least one kill. But i also think of myself as a pretty high skill killer, and a pretty lame survivor. But i know how easy and fast it is to win if you just do gens and are able to run the killer around. It also made me a better killer because i learned how easy it is to hide around gens and have a better game sense of where people will be
So if you start playing killer it will give you a better understanding of a killers perspective, give your critiques more weight, AND probably make you a better survivor in the process. There's literally no down side!
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You have to bind the look left and look right from the arrow keys to q and e. This also means you'll have to rebind the active ability button to something else.
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Another point for survivor is: you have to be good against all killers. Let me explain: you never know what to expect from a match, what killer is coming, you have to be good against all of them knowing common mind games and plays of all killers.
Killers always know what they are facing and they can main one single killer and destroy everyone playing this single killer over and over again.
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Agree, I hate when people say Billy is pisseasy. These are probably the people who only use m2 to travel the map and M1 for survivors.
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Pipping is absolutly meaningless.
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It really depends on how you play him. If you only backrev people and otherwise use basic hits at pallets/windows, then yes, Billy is a pretty easy killer. Strong and very consistent in a chase, but pretty boring to play. However, once you start curving your chainsaw around pallets and loops, that's when you open up an insane amount of potential in exchange for a really steep learning curve.
On the plus side, whenever you manage to pull off a good curve, you'll almost always get a hit, because most survivors will never think they can get hit from a particular position position.
The downside is that whilst you're learning you'll get stomped consistently, because you'll spend most of your time bumping into objects due to the amount precision required to pull off consistent curves.
This includes knowing exactly when to start revving your chainsaw in any position on each tile, consistently keeping the charge at 99 without letting it go down too far or popping it by accident, learning the exact amount you need to turn your mouse (analogue stick) to perform a certain degree rotation and knowing exactly when you need to start turning after the initial run begins.
All of that requires a lot of practice, however most people don't even try to learn, because the killer is strong enough even without utilising the power to it's fullest potential. That's why people fail to appreciate billy's high skill cap - because it's not required to reach it in order to perform well.
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If u are playing at high ranks and with both skilled sides there is a LOT involved from both sides.
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The definition of "skill" is very blurry, isn't it?
I mean doesn't it take as much/not less skill to perform good on a killer that naturally has a weaker kit (e.g. Wraith), than playing the strongest killer in the game?
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I'm saying both sides have deal with 4 other people. So that can't be used as an argument for how much skill either side takes.
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Not exactly... it's a different skillset.
An amazing wraith doesn't transfer a lot of it's skills to nurse for instance.
Same for trapper and hag. You both set traps but you're going about it differently and with a somewhat different goal. Very rarely a trapper and hag would put a trap in the same spot.
Billy and bubba have different situations when they would use their chainsaw.
Huntress and clown both use projectiles but is there anyone who would say they have similar skillsets?
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Can confirm, playing clown today, and I managed to mind game someone and I would’ve gotten the hit had I not had the bottle out, the survivor got to the pallet and the chase continued for too long and I lost a ton of pressure. Sometimes killers just potato, even if you’ve made it to red ranks
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Exactly this. Sometimes I’ll pull off Mindgames where it wasn’t necessarily that the survivor did anything wrong, they just did what they could with the confusing and inconsistent info they had. I’m much more of a potato at survivor but from what I’ve seen, very few people on both sides don’t make mistakes.
Also, the whole “survivors control the flow of the game” is another thing they spout. While it’s true that survivors can dictate it, that’s only when you’ve lost pressure to the point where the gen progress is out of your hands, which happens if the killer isn’t doing well. Which again, comes down to the killer’s performance, and less so the survivor’s.
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I wouldn't say higher, but at least equal. I'm thinking about high rank play, but both solo survivors and low tier killers need to manage 4 other people without knowing exactly what they're doing, so they have to think about a ton of things to be successful. The main difference is that as a survivor all those 4 people could be trying to kill you.
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You're basing this on Low rank gameplay? Of course Killers will do well against survivors who don't know who to play, Once survivors learn how to play the game becomes much more relaxed.
What you should be doing is taking all ranks into consideration. Survivor is quite easy to get the hang of, Killer on the other hand can seem easy at low ranks but as soon as you start to face these survivors who know what they're doing it becomes much more difficult.
Survivors have it harder in the beginning but overall Killers have a much higher skill ceiling in my opinion.
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If you want to learn every Killer, there is a higher skill ceiling since you have to adapt to their playstyle, find out good perks and, as you said, that includes more challenging Killers like Nurse and Hag, especially Nurse since she plays almost completely different than other Killers.
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I realize you don’t want to go very in depth so feel free not too as I don’t either. However, as I was reading the original post from I was thinking of how I agreed with him/her that some killers do not have as high as a skill cap due to idea of hillbilly. I personally do not play hill billy anymore because of the fact that I feel he is too easy to play. I don’t think he is that easy for everybody but I find his skill cap is much lower than a survivors. I play Console these days so my opinion could possibly be irrelevant to degree. I never played with a keyboard on pc back in the day anyway
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I like to say, rather than comparing skill ceiling is that - killers have to do a lot, survivors have to know a lot.
I once made a list concerning survivors, but just to mention a few - not only do they need to know everything a killer does in order to do well in chases like looping or hiding; they need to know things like dealing with hex totems, killer perks like bbq, making good saves, best use of items and add-on (like flashlights), how to deal with the mechanics and add-ons for 15+ killers, choosing the right gens to do, map layouts for safe vs. dead areas, etc.
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Thanks for sharing your experience. My experience of the game is limited to ranks 20-10 atm due to chasing after the adept achievements and not caring about rank; also, I'm a noob!. There's no doubt in my mind that in the higher ranks things definitely change. However, I would advise against telling people their claims are untrue because they conflict with your experiences. I was stating a personal opinion based on my observations and personal experience listening to others and playing the game rank 20-10 on both sides. This "it's not true because I never experienced it" way of thinking is not only conflicting with the overall point of what I was saying (since I wasn't actually stating any facts, but an opinion based off personal insight) but also causes much hatred and discrimination in the world in general. So once again; thanks for your insight.?
Post edited by hinoutoumei on0 -
As someone who plays mostly killer, I would agree that survivors have a higher skill ceiling.
I wish it weren't the case, but most killers cap out pretty early and that's one reason why they lag behind at higher levels of play. There's no way to become so good with Clown's bottles that they can be used to counteract his awful mobility and map pressure, for example. Legion's power is about as lethal as a sternly worded letter.
There's only so much you can do with some tools.
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look, i tried being polite. now i am not being polite. i do not care. I was sharing my opinion, which I stated as an opinion. I do not wish to carry this conversation on any further, since you so obviously are stuck up. you shouldn't tell others that their opinions are untrue. Everything you have said after that, I could care less about. Please don't waste anymore of my time. Good day. you want to be a stuck up prick, you do that. good luck in life. nothing i said was present as 100% true facts. I started my statement with IMO (in my opinion) and then listed personal experiences. You then proceeded to tell me I was basically lying about my personal experiences like some douche. So back off! if i get banned from here for saying these things, who cares, cuz I can't even share my opinions cause of ignorant jerks like you populating this game.
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I appreciate that y’all wanna discuss but can we please keep it civil like Rizzo said? ?
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Why don't you wanna know when you could be wrong?
Also, opinions can be wrong, and saying they are wrong is not an offense to you, the person.
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Survivor has less mechanical skill, but relies a lot more on awareness/routing and knowing the tiles, its also more punishing.
Killers have mechanical skill (mostly) and still rely on the same game sense you get from thousands of hours, but a new player can play killer and even when losing, still get hits and feel like they are impacting the game, a new survivor dost really get that, they hide doing gens or get killed.
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Yes also fyi you can change the sensitivity of q/e by changing killer controller sensitivity which is default at 50% i think so you chuck it up to lets say 100% and you will see a big diffrence.
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I know still its just not as complicated like you make it sound. Yes there is a significant difference with a Billy who can and cannot curve. At the end of the day he is still one of the easiest killers to learn and master. Is that and issue? Probably yes due to him being high rank material, but we at least need him since both Spirit and Nurse are being taken down a few notches.
I personally just dont enjoy playing with him on either side. At least curving makes him more fun to play against as a Survivor, but even that has good counterplay. Now that I think about it i wonder why people dont curve more. Thats the funniest I have with Billy.
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Survivors have a higher skillfloor, but the balance is survivorfavored. That doesn't mean they have a higher skillceiling though. Back when infinites existed, you could run around the window for hours and win against the best killers. But looping infinites is not a high skillceiling, even though it "outskills" everything the killer can do.
I'd give genrush the fault that survivors look unskilled. Since even bad survivors can hold M1 consequently to win games. You dont even have to get in a chase. If the game was balanced, then both sides have around the same skillceiling, slightly higher for killers due to thinking aobut 4 survivors compared to 1 killer, and having 17 different abilities to master.
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Do you use q/e for left/right on every killer or do you just turn it on when playing Billy? I didn't see how to set up controlls to use q/e on saw only.
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