Stop the “fun is subjective” mantra
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I hate Doctor. I find everything about playing against him unfun. Yet when I make a post voicing my concerns while SIMULTANEOUSLY saying I would be fine with him being buffed as long as the BS parts of his kit are removed I'm given the 'ol "git gud" and talked down to because Doc is a weak character.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I mean sure, that’s the goal but I honestly think they just constantly rush themselves into things and when making decisions. Its a lot of pressure on them though.
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this is literally a video game. if you don't like perks a killer is using just dc and find a new lobby and if you depip oh well play a few more matches and pip again
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If you have been doing something wrong, it doesn’t matter it is for 6 hours or 600 hours. You aren’t learning, regardless.
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The devs balancing around fun isn't about what one side wants it's about making things have a counter.
The Nurse changes while I myself and many others thought the base kit was fine that doesn't mean it was. Good survivors escape and good killers killed it's about how well she did it over the ranks. They thought about extra fatigue to allow more counter play but looking at the ground for longer didn't seem as much fun so they added a Cool down. I'm sure she is still being looked at closely and changes can happen to the charge time if she doesn't fair as well.
Both sides have had many changes but since survivors are skins it's mainly to the strong perks and map changes for them.
You can tell biased viewpoints as they.only see nerfs or buffs to one side and ignore the others or say they were just a qol improvement (that always works both ways).
Of course when they change something one person uses that is when you see the complaints from them. Changing anything someone enjoys is going to upset them but it's not about that one person's viewpoint it's about what's best for the playerbase overall.
They take feedback for the community but as the community have shown many times in the past it's not always what is best for the game. Many think they do know better on here and it's evident when they post, thinking they are not being heard or being ignored when it's just the devs don't want to come out and say every single time "Your ideas aren't good for our game".
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Right; sarcastic replies with 0 substance bringing up Spirit balance in every thread is just “sharing your opinion”. Gotcha.
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So old base nurse was the most fun for everyone, right? And also the most balanced iteration of her, right? Do you still think balance and fun are unrelated?
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Old legion also was the most balanced version of themselves IN THEORY. They could be genrushed, but had no other reliable counter, so they were unfun as bad word.
And the devs nerfed base nurse, so the devs, at least partly, don't think about the fun as killer.
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They obviously need to consider both sides when making changes. I don't think it's fair to say they don't think about how much fun a killer as.
Also, they have access to actual data they can use to inform their decisions. I'm sure they don't just balance based on forums posts alone.
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And the data plus the forum posts clearly showed, that her addons were the problem. Still no valid explanation for the base nurse nerf. Except subjective "fun".
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Where is the data available?
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Actually the data didnt show base Nurse was ok or it wouldn't have been touched.
The forums are also a tiny minority of the playerbase so should be taken as such.
I already posted some of us though she was ok at base but that is subjective in itself.
They wanted to add more counterplay between blinking twice and being able to and first though of increasing fatigue. This was deemed as not a fun mechanic as would be staring at the ground for too long losing survivors more. They added the cooldown to try and give a similar effect to the blinks but also to allow the nurse to see where someone was going. It can be tweaked but feedback is what is needed not constant whining as that has the adverse effect.
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The feedback to the PTB nurse (at least the biggest part of it) was, that she is fine in her current state, but the base nerf was not needed. So the right move would've been a revertion of her base nerf and a rework of the cooldown addons. They didn't do it. Why?
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Because the ptb is primarily for testing and tweaking not complete changes. The amount of players who join are again a small minority of the user base.
There is also no data to say what you are assuming as we dont know exactly the feedback from the players on the ptb. If it was the forum posts then you would notice they were mainly from the same people complaining before it even went live which has to be taken with a grain of salt as their opinion was already made prior to them trying her out.
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You can't ask the whole playerbase, you have to deal with the opinion of a minority. I scrolled through many feedbacks and they all agreed on that point. Only a few players said the new base nurse is still the same and strong as before. That PROVES nothing, but is a very strong sign.
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Because you and other people made this statement when talking about spirit. People like @Scottjund said it is not whether spirit is op or not it is just not fun to play against. People posted counterplay several times (as video evidence) and the people who want changes dont give a damn.
BHVR nerfs, go figure.
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That's not how it works and would be really silly if it did.
You can't have 50-100 people dictate what happens in the game just because they posted on the forums when the playerbase could be in excess of 1m per month. It's not a minority its the tiniest of minorities.
Forums are always where players go to complain. Look at rhe majority of posts on here most are about one sude being OP. Nerf this, buff that and most would be quite frankly bad for the game.
This is why few changes happen from the forum complainers and people that give good feedback constructively are taking more seripusly as its thought out rather than reactionary.
There are also multiple places to gather feedback from and not just this place. The survey alone was posted in game, twitter, reddit, steam, here etc.
Changes being made are rarely if ever reverted from a ptb unless it's completely broken.
Post edited by twistedmonkey on1 -
If you want to reduce the Legitimate Case Against Spirit thread down to me saying 'she's not fun', I don't really have a response for you. I tried to respectfully and thoughtfully explain that there isn't reliable counter play compared to other killers. There was no video evidence of reliable counters posted to that thread. I'd be happy to see that and reconsider.
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Maybe but they also tend to be very selective in whom they take feedback from..and it hasn't made things better for killers..the loss of red insta heals is meaningless if every killer ends up too weak to benafit
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Don't take it too hard it is just mocking by now from me. The thing is that there are so many threads on this forum with the same subject which bring the same arguments over and over again and they have to be repeated over and over. Just like you said, it hasn't been posted in this thread, true but there are several others.
Maybe @Rizzo90 or another mod, could merge all these threads regarding nerf so it is one huge thread which might make more sense so the forum is not filled with this subject and people can read all the arguments evidence etc...
And now just for you @hiC there you go.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503061323?collection=wLSpgsc_1RUV3g this should be PC and lots of spirit as killer in those games. Hope that helps.
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Thanks for the link. I'll keep an open mind and report back in.
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No they're not mutually exlusive, you're right here. They were just excusing a killer being weak with that statement. It was intended as a "not every killer needs to be viable at every rank" but came across as a "Killers don't have to be able to kill well to be good"
I think this was shortly after they made the early version of the emblem system that everyone hated.
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But you know how scientific journeys about, let's say elections, work? They don't ask a quarter of the inhabitants of a country. They ask a minority. A really tiny minority, compared to the whole number of inhabitants. They ask them randomly or as randomly as possible tho.
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The dev's decide what is balanced and unbalanced via statistics.
If the spirit averages 3.5 kills per game, it's time to balance this statistic out.
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So every game should have 2 escapes and kills?
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What country are you from that the Elections ask a minority? They use a much higher number and you are talking millions upon millions of people they generally pull around 40% of the country. The others arent about a change to something but to try and get a guesstimate for an idea which doesn't directly affect the people and also why they are highly scrutinised. Come on you know this couldn't happen by using some 0.01% of the playerbase.
You are also not considering those that have gave feedback here who don't mind the change or even like it.
Think about all the changes in the past. DS had just as many users give feedback saying it didnt need the change. Every single change to anything people dont like they give feedback of why it isn't good for them here. You are then saying all these should also have been listened too which really means no change could have ever happened.
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A prognose BEFORE an election. That's what im talking about. They ask a fix number of about 2000 people out of millions or even more.
I did it. That's why i said most people gave negative feedback on the nurse base changes, not all people gave negative feedback on the nurse base changes.
The players opinion is only a part of the balance decision of the devs, like you mentioned. And i'm just ASSUMING, based on the decisions the devs made in the past, that they don't wan't strong killers, that are not counterable by basic looping.
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A promise is nothing it's a sample and in reality it changes completely from it the majority of the time so it's a mute point to make.
Again that's a fallacy statement as you cant take that to say most when it was a tiny minority of forum users who did. If you said wuite a few forum user then that holds true but there could be 5k registered on here and with only 50-100 it doesn't even come close to "most".
The devs do want balance and they do take feedback but history has shown that what users want isnt what is best for the game. Your statement is a typical one from someone who doesn't understand. The Nurse still can't be looked and is still the strongest killer hi the game. That would read true if they took away her ability to blink through objects.
Your last point makes no sense as if that was the case they would have removed the Nurses blink entirely. She still can't be looped.
Never assume it makes an ass out of U and me.
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You're right about the first one. Because you can't check on reality before implementing it.
The election prognose versus the actual election was only a difference of maximal four percent in my country. You can't state facts on prognoses, but you can prognose things with prognoses, that's why they're called prognoses.
I know that nurse is still viable, i'm a nurse main (still, after the nerfs) with roughly 800 hours on the game. It's not my point that she's not viable anymore. My point is, that the base nerf was not necessary and that she feels very clunky and slow rn.
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Thats one sample of prognose and also an election has months of pre election campaigns to sway and ask questions of the voters over the whole time. Also thats one countries sample while others differ vastly and they have years of past elections and parties to go off. It's always easier to see a pattern if you have all the data from past ones to go off. If it was always so clear of course to be a true indication then there wouldn't be a need for an actual vote at all.
While we agree on not thinking the base Nurse change was needed and it feels off I reiterate my point of what we feel doesn't mean that is what the stats reflected. The other issue is re learning her. It took many over 100 hours to get her down and playing with her over a long period of time which tbh could make any change to any kler feel clunky
I see the Nurse as a killer that needs more time to re learn these chnages than changes to other killers as she took the most time to learn initially. Over time you will see the complaints dissapear as people do this and see they can still do just as well with a little but more planning.
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