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Stop the “fun is subjective” mantra
This comment is in every single thread right now. We all know that fun is subjective. Nobody is suggesting to balance the game around fun. It’s a useless comment that needs to go away.
If the game is balanced, it will be fun. If the game can be more balanced, it will be more fun for more people. Fun is a result of balancing the game, not a metric to balance around.
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Tell that to the devs
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Show me where the devs have said they’re balancing the game around fun. I’ll wait.
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Their last broadcast..they said when they look at a character their priority is to and I quote "make them more fun to play and play against " but as you can see for the nurse..that's only half true..
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...by making them more balanced. Fun is a result of creating balanced gameplay.
Pre-change nurse was UNANIMOUSLY considered the to be a killer in her own tier. She was not the baseline for balanced gameplay; she was far and away an exception in the killer pool.
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Fun is completely subjective. Whether the game is balanced or not is also subjective, it’s asymmetrical so true balance is never gonna be achieved.
What you might find fun and balanced someone else might find OP and boring, hence the spirit debate.
Its never gonna end so probably make your peace with it.
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Who decides balance? Who decides what is unbalanced? You cant,if 2 things are different one will be better.
You cant balance for fun because everyone has a different definition as you said. But it's the same thing was "balance" or "fairness" who decides what is and isn't? If its numbers, do they take into account skill? Time played? Dcs? Sucides? Swfs?
You cant make anything balanced completely for the same reason you cant balance for fun.
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Balance is only partially subjective. We could apply in game statistics to objectively prove points (IF WE HAD THEM!!!).
That last sentence might be the most sensible and important thing I’ve ever been told in these forums.
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Lol no they are using fun as a means to make changes that affect balance..theres quite a difference in that..and nurses addons were definitely in need of adjustment but the cooldown only served to make her more difficult yet perform worse..that's the worst kind of balance change..and one that only benefitted one side
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Even so, she was the second hardest and and everyone agreed an addon nerf was all she needed so that she would be harder, but the devs decided against the majority of the community she was unbalanced.
Imagine when vacuum pallets were nerfed, the devs say well make them more fair and fun for both, then instead of making them fair for both they make it so theres 75% less pallets. Sure their still good and still useful, but nothing that bothered most people was gone and this was clearly in favor of one side.
That's exactly what happend to nurse, the casual players for her now find her tedious and annoying, while the amazing nurse are still basically unaffected by the change.
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Compared to the rest of the cast, Nurse was completely out of the park in terms of effectivity. A nerf is not a bad balance change. She's still an amazing killer, and still #1. Now she's just a bit more punishing to play.
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The devs decide what’s balanced. They have the objective data available to inform that decision.
There are tons of factors to consider, as you’re rightly pointing out. That’s why aggregates and averages are what you’d use to inform your decisions; not anomalies and outliers.
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How are they using fun as a means if IF IT IS SUBJECTIVE AND CANNOT BE MEASURED. They couldn’t possibly be using fun as a metric to change balance because you can’t quantity fun. What you’ve just said is literally impossible.
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The majority said base nurse was balanced, even being in a tier of her own.
But killer in their own tier should be fixed? Bubba, wraith and doctor have some words for you oh wait, it isnt balance for both sides being balanced for, sure we have a doctor "rework" and freddy but there are still so many low tiers no one looks at.
Oh wait I forgot, survivors aren't consistently losing to them, so they aren't being cried about daily. Notice the irony? It's unfair to one side but since its killer there aren't thousands of post dedicated to any one of them, isn't it the same concept? But not in killers favor, hence why it's not getting as much attention.
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Too punishing..nobody wants to play her because shes all risk for less reward now..its not exactly fair
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No..they arnt measuring anything..they're just using it as justification..that's what your missing
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I don’t disagree that weaker killers should get buffed. I’m glad the Fredster is solid now. Bubba and Wraith should get some love if they’re underperforming! I agree with you!
Why would you be surprised if survivors were speaking out if they’re CONSISTENTLY losing to someone? Aren’t they supposed to be winning around half their games?
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That's the issue, survivors in numbers along have the advantage (do the math of hooks vs gens) but as spirit or nurse you have an advantage
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If you think the Devs are just making decisions based in forum posts I don’t know how to continue the conversation.
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They've said themselves it happens more than you think it does..several changes in the past were community ideas used by the devs..so it matters..otherwise why else do these forums exist? Anyway..I've said my piece , see you around
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The problem is for many people only winning is fun. They need to escape or 4k the majority of the time or the game is unfun/imbalanced.
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This also bothers me. I have plenty of trials that are fun where I die for 4 survivors get out and I still have fun. Winning and fun are not mutually exclusive.
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So you're telling me someone with as much potential as Nurse should be able to be played by everyone? It's completely fair. Put more time into learning a character = play a killer who far exceeds the rest. The game should NOT be balanced around Nurse / Spirit's tier.
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Lol I never said that and it was never the case for her..all I'm saying is the payoff should equal the effort which is not the case rn
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Nurse in itself can never be fun survivor side because it breaks every game mechanic, there was never any outplay, a practiced nurse just obliterates any team, solo or SWF.
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Mmmhm..
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No technically a casual should lose more, since they have less time to improve, they most likely play the game just for jump scares anyways...
A hardcore DBD player that invests 4-8 hours a day will generally live more then half their games....
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I have a good one, no basement, hatch only with keys, decrease hook respawn to compensate for no basement, reduce amount of keys found or in bloodweb to prevent it being overused, decrease wiggle timer by like 1 second to 15. Also revert to old hit boxes since they doubled in size since the games inception. I'd say that's a big balance.
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Is it a mantra if it's true?
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I suppose what you say is true. Although, there may be some instances that I can't think of right now where something is terribly unfun but not technically over-powered.
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but its true.
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"If the game is balanced, it will be fun."
That's simply incorrect. A lot of people found DBD to be quite fun in 2016 despite it being very much unbalanced.
Don't get me wrong, balance is very important, but balance and fun are 2 completely different things. They intercept, usually in "being on a recieving end of an unbalanced mechanic is not fun", but it doesn't work vice versa - as in "a completely balanced game still can be unfun".
That's kinda what happened to Nurse - balance-wise she's probably better now but she became very much unfun to play as, because you have to wait 3-6 seconds after each move which results in almost half a match of inactivity. That kills her for me.
And sure as hell fun is subjective. Even when we discuss a single character, addon, item or perk being used, half of us primarily considers how fun is it using that while the other half primarily considers how fun is it versing that. That's as subjective as it gets.
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Then you are in the minority. How many threads on this forum and on the steam forums are created out of pure salt? Most people are mad when they lose.
100% untrue. Nurse was able to be and is able to be countered. You haven’t looked into it if you truly believe that.
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DBD wasn’t unbalanced in 2016; it was less balanced. My premise isn’t that you cannot have fun with a less balanced game. It’s that the the more balanced it is, the more fun it will be for more people.
Your example about nurse might ring true for a lot of people, but it only shows the killer perspective. You touch on that in the last paragraph. The same thing happened with survivors and flashlights. They were the strongest item in the game. They needed to be balanced. It may have been less fun for survivors when they were nerfed, but overall the game was moved into a better place.
YES, WE ALL KNOW AND AGREE THAT FUN IS SUBJECTIVE. The point I’m trying to make is that when someone lays out a thoughtful idea as to why something might need to be tuned for balance, the inevitable “well, fun is subjective” reply is unnecessary and not constructive.
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I find subjectivity to be a poor argument in regards to game balance. This isn't a philosophy class, no one actually thinks being camped or tunneled is fun. No one thinks 2 gens popping by the time you finish your first chase is fun. If you're throwing the subjectivity argument to justify bad game design you clearly have a vested interest in doing so, don't even play.
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I promise I have more time then you in this game, you're very wrong.
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"DBD wasnt unbalanced in 2016"
Unbalance descibes one side weighing more then the other, in this case survivors heavily outweighed the killer in strengths and advantages, to say it was less balanced is correct but so is it was unbalanced as it still is just not as much as then.
Your time in the game is irrelevant, escapes or sacrifices are something but your time?
Argue from a point of facts not from a point of power, dont attempt to out status someone to further your narrative, just because you have more time doesnt mean your better. I guarantee you've lost to people with half your time and dominated people with double your time.
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Stop the "Spirit is not fun" mantra
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The only time I've ever seen someone use the fun is subjective argument is when people state this certain way of playing isn't fun
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The only time I've ever seen someone use the fun is subjective argument is when people state this certain way of playing isn't fun.
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I distinctly remember them saying in one of their streams that some killers are made to be strong, others are made to be fun. This was their excuse for a killer being incredibly weak (I think it was Legion related.)
Struggling to find it again. If anyone has a link to that livestream I'd be eternally grateful
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How is he baiting? He has an opinion and shares it when he sees fit,hes not hurting anyone or really bating anyone.
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Check the forum rules if you’re not sure what baiting is.
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Implying that killers are either strong OR fun? They said that? Seems like those things aren’t mutually exclusive.
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"If the game is balanced, it will be fun"
That's subjective. Take Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. I understand it's a different kind of game, but hear me out. MW2 was probably the most unbalanced CoD out there. But it was fun as hell. Constant chaos ruled by like 3 guns was fun. Similar concepts can be applied to DbD.
Balanced =/= fun.
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Everyone had access to the same loadout. Can you explain how that’s unbalanced?
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The rules just say baits, doesnt define it.
Edit: Urban dictionary:A post on a forum or image board used to deliberately provoke conflict among other posters.
By your logic youf baiting with your post, he wants a discussion from your post. You made a post knowing it could upset people and would lead to criticism, how is he in the wrong for making a point against you?
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Custom loadouts gave birth to ridiculous combinations of overpowered guns. It was great to gun people down in less than a second, and it was totally fine to be on the receiving end of it.
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This is not a bait. I'm allowed to express my opinion, I won't ask you for permission.
Please @Rizzo90 I interpret this as personal attack
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Balancing has nothing to do with fun. Old omega nurse was insane fun for some killers, for others it was boring, because it was so easy. For survivors it was a bad word bad word bad word. Base nurse was fun for most players, killers and survivors. New nurse with specific addons is fun for both sides. New base nurse is not fun for killers and fun for survivors.
Basically new base nurse is reverted omega nurse, if you look at fun. But more balanced than her current state (with addons).
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