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Stridor VS Iron will - not as advertised
The Iron will perk says that it reduces the sound of injured survivor by 100%, but the wiki page for Stridor (the killer perk which makes survivor's breathing and pain whimpers louder), says that Stridor counters Iron Will, confirmed to me by a Ghostface that killed me in a recent match.
The problem is: 50% of 0 is still 0. If a survivor is making absolutely no sound, it's entirely impossible for something to take that silence and make sound again.
I understand why it's like this balance-wise, but either the descriptions for the perks need to be changed, or the perks themselves need to be changed, because this is a huge inconsistency.
Comments
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Iron will +strider = -100% +50% = -50%
quick maths
most percentages in DBD are additive not multiplicative
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I am pretty sure that at one point everything was done multiplicatively. But yeah right now this is how it works
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Use "No mither" on top for ultimate stealth.
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That's not how math works though. or logic.
You still can't get sound of out nowhere.
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This entirely ignores the point about "hearing something that makes no sound"
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How about this? They add up all of the percentages that the perks apply THEN they change the sound?
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Except it does make sound; it makes 50% of the sound it normally would. It's not hard to understand.
It applies both percentages at the same time; therefore it has to be additive; neither perk is prioritised over the other, as that would be unfair/unbalanced and render the other pointless in a matchup.
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A rework of how the info is displayed would be perfectly fine, but we cannot have one perk say "This perk removes you injured sound effects" and another perk just reverse it.
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Well technically stridor renders iron will useless especially on spirit.
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You are the one who does not understand. I know how the game processes this already, but I'm saying that it is illogical.
Iron will (at level 3) ENTIRELY removes the injured sounds from a survivor (according to the perk description on Iron Will. The percentages being additive don't make any sense in either context.
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it is not illogical to apply the percentages to the base value; in fact, it is consistent. It is an incredibly simple concept.
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technically (it is an issue with the spirit since she still has that BS)_but the survivor is still quieter than base.
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Iron will reduces the sound by 100% relative to the base sound.
Stridor increases the sound by 50% relative to the base sound.
Thus the total is 50% of the base sound.
The increase/decrease is absolute but being represented relative to a fixed base volume for ease of understanding.
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It has always been this way and you need to forget it even says percentage.
Don't look at it as adding 50% to 0%
It uses base values instead.
So say the base value of sound is 100.
Iron will removes that sound by 100
Stridor increases the sound by 50
Strider overrides iron will.
So if stridor is in the game the sounds are set to 150 from the start and after removing iron will's 100 it leaves the sound level at 50.
It's just how it's worded like a few things but it is working as intended.
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Yes. I know. The next person to say this is getting reported for trolling/ spamming. Not to be hostile, but this is genuine trolling at this point, and there's no excuse for it. Honestly this thread should already be locked based on how far it's being derailed.
I've explained in this thread many times, both in the first post and in several replies, that I know how it works, BUT the reality is that the description of the perk and the reality of how the perks interact are entirely contradictory. I am making two suggestions here: change the wording of the perk descriptions, or change how the perks interact.
Iron will, in the description of the perk, says that it entirely mutes the cries of an injured survivor. Deletes. Removes. Disables. Eliminates. Erases. Discards. No longer is existence. I'm using every phrase I can find in the Thesaurus to remove any doubt beyond this point.
Stridor, based on the description of the perk, amplifies all survivor's breathing, and their cries of pain. You cannot amplify a sound that does not exist.
Again, to be as clear and concise as possible, I understand that the game treats these percentages additive, BUT, the description of the perks are inaccurate as to how they actually work in-game.
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I agree with you, but sometimes I feel like a quacking idiot while I try to convince people that for example insidious is horrible and they act as if it's the most balanced perk in the game. Lol.
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I see no problem with the description, it has already been explained why it makes sense and a majority seem to agree that it is fine.
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It is in no way trolling, how you wish to percieve it is up to yourself though.
In any case stridor and iron will do state they run of off different mechanics in their actual description
Stridor :-
You are acutely sensitive to the breathing of your prey.
Breathing of Survivors in pain is 25/50/50 % louder and regular breathing is 0/0/25 % louder.
Iron WIll :-
You're able to concentrate and enter a meditative-like state to numb some pain.
Grunts of pain caused by injuries are reduced by 50/75/100 %.
so if Iron Will works off grunts of pain and Stridor works off breathing then using logic they are of two different mechanics.
So the description is right and has just been misread so the math doesnt really matter.
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It's not 50% of 0. The number are additive.
-100% +50% = -50%
Stridor 3 turns Iron Will 3 into Iron Will 1.
If you run Iron Will 3 and No Mither 3 you completely nullify Stridor.
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Iron Will "Grunts of pain caused by injuries are reduced by 50/75/100 %." (https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Iron_Will)
Stridor "Breathing of Survivors in pain is 25/50/50 % louder and regular breathing is 0/0/25 % louder." (https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Stridor)
What exactly is the problem with these descriptions? They say exactly what they do. No one is trolling you, you are just wrong plain and simple.
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Except his explanation is clearly wrong but you guys want to keep arguing you are right.
You are not increasing nothing by 50%. You are adding 50% to nothing. There is a huge difference.
And no where in the perk descriptions is it confusing at all. "Reduced by 100%" and "50% louder". It's pretty clear these are additive.
I use both Iron Will as a survivor main, and Stridor as a Spirit main. This concept was obvious to me from day 1. No where can you interpret these descriptions as "increasing nothing by 50%".
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
If you have 10 apples and the amount of apples get reduced by 100% how many apples do you have? 0 increase that number by any percentage it will remain 0.
If you have 10 apples and the amount of apples is increased by 50% how many apples do you have? 15, now reduce the amount of apples by 100% how many apples do you have? 0
I hope you understand that everybody understands how those percentages work in game. It's the description.
Cheers.
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Reduced by 100% means removed.
Anyone who wants to know why the DBD community is so toxic, look to this thread. I'm making a good point about something, and nearly every other comment here has been a copy-pasted "nuh uh, here's how the game ACTCHULLY works!", completely passing over the entire point I made.
If something does't make any noise, you can't increase the volume of that silence. You can only add another sound.
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THANK YOU
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"Reduced by 100% means removed."
No it doesn't. It means it is REDUCED by 100%. As in 100-100 = 0. Pretty simple.
"Anyone who wants to know why the DBD community is so toxic, look to this thread. I'm making a good point about something, and nearly every other comment here has been a copy-pasted "nuh uh, here's how the game ACTCHULLY works!", completely passing over the entire point I made."
1) Your points are just flat out wrong.
2) You guys are the ones being toxic when we explain to you why you are wrong, but you stomp your feet and say "no".
"If something does't make any noise, you can't increase the volume of that silence. You can only add another sound."
Uh yea you can. If you add 50% to the volume of 0, then the volume is at 50%. Not sure why you keep fighting this logic.
This is not at all how it works. It is an additive, sliding scale. Volume is set to 100%. Iron Will reduces it by 100%. Stridor adds 50%. Net volume is 50%.
You don't multiply 50% by 0. You are INCREASING the volume by 50%.
You don't multiply 100% by 150%. You REDUCE the volume by 100%.
You logic is flawed because you are looking at the numbers as multiplicative instead of additive. As has been explain numerous times to you, your math is wrong.
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Except that's not how additive values work.
If they were multiplicative you'd be correct. But they are not.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Idk what planet are you living on but I never said that they are multiplicative. I am just saying that the description of the perk doesnt mention it like ever. That's it. I dont understand which part you dont understand? So now you either have to accept it as an answer or reply again saying exactly same argument that is still wrong because nobody argues about how those values are applied to eachother.
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It doesn't have to say "additive" or "multiplicative". That's how the game handles the math. The devs have said this.
I don't have to accept your answer because your answer is wrong. Plain and simple. I don't care how many times you repeat it.
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"Reduced" As in X-100. Not X-(X*100).
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
The topic is a survmain's whining (Probably because Rin uses Stridor against Iron Will). This perk works as it must. 100%-50%=50%. Simple math. It doesn't need nerf, especially when every survivor have Iron Will on red ranks. Stridor is half counter of Will and it's okay.
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Oh, really, I were careless reading this. I thought TS wanna nerf Stridor that it wouldn't work for Iron Will survs.
But nevertheless I think it doesn't ought to be changed.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Leaving aside all the angry baby comment from certain stubborn people who shall not be named... cough
I have one question to ask. Why do you assume in the first place Iron Will applies first? Is there a text somewhere in-game that says "Survivor effects will be calculated first, followed by Killers'"? When the base of your argument is wrong, anything you draw from it is wrong.
Its not inconsistent to think that two perks that do the same modify the same value, and then the result of the sum between the two is what REALLY happens during the match. Say Stridor increases grunts of pain noises by 500 points (a completely arbitrary unit), and Iron Will decreases it by 250 points. The sum of that is 250 points in sounds, and that is the value.
Thats how it works, and its not misleading at all. Its not inconsistent just because a stubborn minority never learned how numbers work.
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It would work that way if Iron Will said "makes injured grunts silent" but it say -100% so it adds up.
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Because again... we are talking about percentages...
It's not 500 and then 250 points...
I made apple example already. It doesnt matter which way you apply it based on how it sounds. It should reduce 100% of grunts.
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The argument that you cant draw something from nothing is moot. Ill try to put it differently than everyone else has, so that it registers in your head, but you're not grasping the situation.
Iron will reducing noise by 100% does reduce the noise by 100%. However the noise has a set value, X. Taking away 100% of X does not change the value of X. Which is why Stridor is able to reactivate sounds--- it increases noise by 50% of X.
X-X+0.5X=0.5X
X+0.5X-X =0.5X
The set value is not a percentile. It is simply easier to calculate the total noise by % of X remaining, because in doing so, they remove any cause or need for argument. Iron will doesnt mute the survivor, it "Reduces noise by 100%". If they wrote that it muted survivor, then there would be an issue, but they didn't.
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Again the whole discussion is not about how it is applied in game which you did.
In real life when you hear sometime is 100% off that means it's free. That's it there nothing else to it everybody knows its you add the values. But the description implies that you will always be silent because it reduces noise by 100% logically (not in game) that means it doesnt matter how much you increase it at the end the noise will be 0 because you will reduce whatever number you have by 100%.
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Thats a logical fallacy. You are rejecting Stridor from the equation, because Iron Will says 100% reduction.
For there to be a percentage, there must be a value. 100% of 150% is still just the 100%, which would leave you with 50%. The reason for this is because we are talking strictly in percentages, and because neither effect changes the base value.
Yes, Iron Will does say it will reduce noise from grunts of pain by 100%, but when you have 150% to rid yourself of, you still have 50% after dropping 100%.
The reason we keep making these comments and saying, relatively, the same thing, is because the argument made in the original post is both a non-issue, and a false equivalency. It is a non-issue because they "understand how the math works", according to other posts in this thread, which means that they know there's nothing wrong. It is a false equivalence because you are trying to equate 100% to 150%.
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If you have 10 apples and the amount of apples get reduced by 100% how many apples do you have? 0 increase that number by any percentage it will remain 0.
If you have 10 apples and the amount of apples is increased by 50% how many apples do you have? 15, now reduce the amount of apples by 100% how many apples do you have? 0
I hope you understand that everybody understands how those percentages work in game. It's the description.
Cheers.
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You're still blatantly disregarding the point I already made. The math is all done at once, not in segments. Meaning they do not change the value of those 10 apples.
Your example is exactly how one can tell you arent paying attention.
If you start with ten apples, and someone offers you five, while someone else wants to buy all ten you currently possess, you will still be left with five apples.
In percentages, that equates to starting with 100%, being given 50% and having 100% taken at exactly the same time, leaving you with 50%.
You keep saying you understand the math, but you clearly dont because its been shown to you multiple times, and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Its not an issue of descriptions, its an issue of needing to admit youre in the wrong.
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You are blatantly disregarding what I have been saying the entire time. I dont care how its added up in the game. In game its added up by taking away 100 then adding back 50 but instantly.
In real life if sometime is 100 off aka price reduced to 0. You cant just increase that price back to 100% from 0 by multiplying.
Therefore description is inaccurate because it only reduces grunting to 0 if the opposite effect isnt applied.
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It isn't multiplied. Or divided. Someone else already told you that. Additive percentages means you add a percentage based on the base value of the stat, not the implied value, which is what I've been saying. Youre making sales comparisons, when that isnt equivalent. Not even close. You aren't getting a discounted deal for something. You are running a perk in a video game. If you know how the math works, then this is a nonissue.
You're being stubborn, and you clearly didnt want a dialogue on the topic. Don't reply to me any further, because I don't want to lose my own time trying to comprehend why youre making such a simple mistake, and trying to claim yourself as logical. This is the farthest from logic I've ever seen an argument stray.
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I dont have words for you people. You simply cant comprehend what I am saying so either read what I said previously or dont.
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